I want more torque from my 103 stage 2 engine 2013 flhx

[Ratman1640]

Hey guys the wife and I just got back from Colorado springs , we live in southeast KS, with 35mph head wind and fully load down and at 80mph in 6th gear I had nothing left in the throttle so I'm thinking more torque maybe a big bore kit but I just want to change pistons and cylinders. The bike is a 2013 flhx with 57h cams, high flow A/C, fulsac pipes with high output V/H muffles , tts master tuner. Dyno was 112 tq and 92 hp , I'm 206 lbs. and the wife is let just say is small under 112lbs but the Kansas winds are rough sometime and I'm wanting to be able to twist the wick and go NOW !! I still want to keep it dependable so keeping the stock C/R would be nice. Thanks for any input guys !

[Admiral Akbar]

Gear it down or use 5th...

[Ratman1640]

Gottcha there Max but even in 5th loaded down and passing its still doesn't pull that hard, its fine when I'm by myself and roles good it just the head wind and loaded down that really slows the bike down.

[PoorUB]

Something is not right. I ride a 2010 Ultra with a 103", Andrews 57, Fuelmoto Jackpot head pipe and pull a small trailer. Even when it was a 96" with Andrews 48's I still had plenty to go even fighting a strong head wind.
I weigh about 200 and my wife about 100 so we are similar there.

Really you are about as far as you can go without raising compression or added more cubic inches.as for adding cubic inches go can go to a 107" without major engine work, but any farther is going to mean pulling the engine to machine the cases.

Raise the compression slightly and port the heads will get you a few horsepower too.

[clawdog60]

143"

[TorQuePimp]

Hey guys the wife and I just got back from Colorado springs , we live in southeast KS, with 35mph head wind and fully load down and at 80mph in 6th gear I had nothing left in the throttle so I'm thinking more torque maybe a big bore kit but I just want to change pistons and cylinders. The bike is a 2013 flhx with 57h cams, high flow A/C, fulsac pipes with high output V/H muffles , tts master tuner. Dyno was 112 tq and 92 hp , I'm 206 lbs. and the wife is let just say is small under 112lbs but the Kansas winds are rough sometime and I'm wanting to be able to twist the wick and go NOW !! I still want to keep it dependable so keeping the stock C/R would be nice. Thanks for any input guys !

  You don't need BIGGER you need to make the best of what you have

  Blueprint the stock pistons = zero deck the stock pistons

  MILD headwork including new intake valves.....if on a budget the exhausts are fine

  deck the heads to balance/equalize the compression

  spiff up the throttle body to get a little closer to a port match

  I would suggest another cam.....but the 57 is OK

  wont be a dyno queen but you should be able to pick up noticeable HP/TQ thruout the RPM range and you will find yourself riding the bike a bit different

  couple of recent examples in the dyno section....one includes a 57

[gonenorth]

  I ride a 2012 Limited with Andrews 48s, S&S Stealth air filter, V&H Power Duals and TTS Tuner.   All the  rest is stock.  In ND we regularly fight strong winds and I have no problem loaded and 2 up with pulling grades at 80 into a strong (30 to 40 MPH) wind in 6th and having throttle left.  I had the same issue when stock, but the cams, air flow and tuner fixed it.  Is the air filter clean?  I am wondering if air flow is restricted.

[Ratman1640]

gonenorth, ive checked the air cleaner and its clean, I guess what im looking for is a really strong motor with high torque, the motor runs great for most ppl but im just wanting more torque and im thinking more cid well fix that but don't know exactly how to go about it. I know raising the C/R and opening the heads up will do it but like the old 396 big block will pull like no other that's why im leaning that way . thanks Mike

[Ohio HD]

You may as well get it over with and jump in with both feet. An S&S 124 low compression will make for a very nice motor for two up touring. Can run it on less than optimum gas, and is made of all the best components you would want. You could sell your motor if you wanted in order to recover some of the cost.


T124LC   

http://www.sscycle.com/product/2007-Up-Twin-Cam-96-103-110-/Engines/T2-T-Series-Long-Block-Engines-for-2007-Up-Models-p25589.html

or

http://goo.gl/gCd0rP

[Don D]

Change your gearing first.

[Ohio HD]

Don, that makes them pull better for sure. But look at his reply #7. He wants more power, big block Chevy as his analogy.

He wants a 124.   

[Don D]

OK
I get that but the gearing and making 6th more usable at cruising speeds may make the difference. From there mild porting and getting the compression in a better spot for the cam is an incremental change than is worth about 8hp 5tq and added torque all the way from idle up.
If the problem warrants spending 6K or so for a 124" then by all means go for it.

[Ratman1640]

I was thinking of just changing out the pistons and the cylinders for more torque or am im thinking wrong ? 

[Ratman1640]

ok let me ask this question .... How can I get more torque out of what I have ?

[Ohio HD]

Problem is, you can't swap out to any cylinder that will increase your cubic inches past a 107, without pulling the motor apart and boring the cases for larger cylinders. By the time you do all that, basically rebuild the motor, then you should go to 117 inches with 4.125" cylinders. I just don't trust the factory cranks if you're going to try to put some real power to the ground.

[Ratman1640]

Thank you Ohio HD , my next question is what kinda torque would I end up with, Ballpark?

[Ohio HD]

Here's an example of a really nice street friendly 117 inch.
You can get more from yours, but being a smaller motor, it gets harder to get it from it.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,81598.msg912513.html#msg912513

[TorQuePimp]

I was thinking of just changing out the pistons and the cylinders for more torque or am im thinking wrong ?

  Adding cubic inches to an already underheaded engine is not the answer

  Being a non 107-117 fan

  this looks like a touring engine to me

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,80743.0.html

[Matt C]

  Adding cubic inches to an already underheaded engine is not the answer

  Being a non 107-117 fan

Good to know you're not a '107 pimp' there John. lol

[fxstdavew]

Re-gear it first. It's the most bang for the buck. Pistons arent going to do what you want.

[Matt C]

Re-gear it first. It's the most bang for the buck. Pistons arent going to do what you want.

Right on. (Especially without better heads)

[Ratman1640]

thanks guys !!! Ohio the numbers on that that dyno are a little more than what im looking for but I got to say I so would live with that lol . so Im looking at 2 grand to get what im looking at?

[sfmichael]

You may as well get it over with and jump in with both feet. An S&S 124 low compression will make for a very nice motor for two up touring. Can run it on less than optimum gas, and is made of all the best components you would want. You could sell your motor if you wanted in order to recover some of the cost.


T124LC   

http://www.sscycle.com/product/2007-Up-Twin-Cam-96-103-110-/Engines/T2-T-Series-Long-Block-Engines-for-2007-Up-Models-p25589.html

or

http://goo.gl/gCd0rP

that 113 John posted looks awesome but that wouldn't be cheap either...

buy the 124 (with a warranty) and sell your old motor

[TorQuePimp]

You may as well get it over with and jump in with both feet. An S&S 124 low compression will make for a very nice motor for two up touring. Can run it on less than optimum gas, and is made of all the best components you would want. You could sell your motor if you wanted in order to recover some of the cost.


T124LC   

http://www.sscycle.com/product/2007-Up-Twin-Cam-96-103-110-/Engines/T2-T-Series-Long-Block-Engines-for-2007-Up-Models-p25589.html

or

http://goo.gl/gCd0rP

that 113 John posted looks awesome but that wouldn't be cheap either...

buy the 124 (with a warranty) and sell your old motor

  A little more than half the cost of a S&S 124

  not including labor

  Its not  just the engine involved in doing a 124 that up the costs ALOT

  Clutch,throttle body &probably exhaust system.....have to dick around with drilling for the oiling system

  Having built a few ...im doing one for my own bike

[hrdtail78]

ok let me ask this question .... How can I get more torque out of what I have ?

Up your compression.  Pay more attention to corrected compression.  9.5 is my limit on the street.  I can't see why 120-125tq wouldn't be achievable with a 103/ 57 combination.  Pistons might get you there, and shaving might still be required.  While you are this for.  Any more money you put into headwork/ TB will only help with squaring up the HP to TQ.

[ndmp40]

I built a simple 113 with HD catalog parts and a mild Black Widow cam that turned 130/132.  It consisted of HD cylinders, 10.5 pistons, the HVA heads, all out of the box.  Add a decent mild cam and TB to it, and you have an excellent performing engine for not too much money.

[Ratman1640]

Thanks again guys !! that gives me some good Ideas and Ill do some research and do some pricing lol. Mike

[BUBBIE]

Not EXPENSIVE to do....

TRY:  the andrews +- 4* Pinion Gear and put it on crank...  Advance... 4* sooner Intake Closing... Might Just be what you need... Lower torque Earlier On...

signed....BUBBIE

[Hossamania]

For torque, the Tman 555 cams are very popular. That, and a 30 tooth pulley are low cost upgrades. However, if you are going after more power in general, all the above suggestions are very good. Be warned, once you start down the path to horsepower, it gets progressively addicting and more expensive. You can see these guys are already trying to talk you into a whole new motor!

[flh canuck]

My experience with the 57H cams is that they do feel a bit soft down low. Certainly no worse than stock but compared to my previous 103 with the SE255's (love 'em or hate 'em but those cams make bottom end torque...) the 57H cams do nothing for lower rpm torque.

Once the tach moves north of about 2800 rpm though, the 57H comes into its own and rips pretty good right to red line which happens quickly. My first indication of how much more torque there was in the upper rpms was massive clutch slippage when I first road tested the new install. That has since been rectified and the Road King now moves out pretty good for a big touring bike.

I haven't had my Road King on the dyno but last week a young feller pulled up beside me at the lights with what was clearly hot rod Dyna. When the light turned green, He stood that Dyna up on its back wheel and was gone. When I eventually caught up to him at the next set of lights, I decided to see if I could keep up to him just for fun. The light turned green and off we went. While there was no way I was going to pass him, he was clearly surprised to see that I was able to stay with him for a ways down the road and into speeds that were well beyond my usual pace. After that little full throttle comparison, I was pretty pleased with the performance of my Road King.

That being said, I am tempted to try what BUBBIE has suggested and throw an advance gear in there to see if that improves the bottom end a little.

[Matt C]

The advance gear does help down low, but you'll give up some on the top.

[Barrett]

A 30T pulley and advancing +4* worked great on my 96" w/37's..

[Ratman1640]

Well you guys have gave me a lot to think about .... I do like the idea of going to a 30 tooth tranny gear , the bike pulls good and 120 mph is no problem to reach which is ok but I think changing the gear ratio would be the cheap way to go so I guess my next question is .... if im turning 2700 rpm at 70 what would my rpms be turning with a 30 tooth tranny gear ? I need to be at 2900 too 3100 rpms with the 57h cams .. that's when she starts pulling hard .

[JYHD1]

according to the Big Boyz calculator the 30 tooth front pulley would put you at about 2,850 rpm at 70 in 6th gear. (24.7 mph per 1,000 rpm)

about 2,900 at 60 in 5th gear. (21 mph per 1,000 rpm)

I've done this pulley conversion on our Road King and it pulls a bunch stronger in all gears and makes taking off from a stop 2 up a lot easier too.

[Ratman1640]

Well ive found a 30 tooth pulley for 130 bucks that's and a gasket kit is a very cheap fix. thanks again !! Mike

[PoorUB]

Well ive found a 30 tooth pulley for 130 bucks that's and a gasket kit is a very cheap fix. thanks again !! Mike

I believe the 30 tooth pulley requires a shorter belt, or some minor swing arm mods to run the stock belt.

[strokerjlk]

Hey guys the wife and I just got back from Colorado springs , we live in southeast KS, with 35mph head wind and fully load down and at 80mph in 6th gear I had nothing left in the throttle so I'm thinking more torque maybe a big bore kit but I just want to change pistons and cylinders. The bike is a 2013 flhx with 57h cams, high flow A/C, fulsac pipes with high output V/H muffles , tts master tuner. Dyno was 112 tq and 92 hp , I'm 206 lbs. and the wife is let just say is small under 112lbs but the Kansas winds are rough sometime and I'm wanting to be able to twist the wick and go NOW !! I still want to keep it dependable so keeping the stock C/R would be nice. Thanks for any input guys !

You could do the primo Rivera 32 tooth comp gear . That would raise your rpms 250 over what you have now. That would put you in the sweet spot with the 57's at 80 mph .
Maybe a little more money than a cheap 30 tooth setup . The upside is  it's a whole lot easier.

The other thing that could have been a factor was the area you were riding in was to soft on timing . At higher elevation you were probably closer to 80 kpa@wot than  95-100 kpa at your lower elevation . Just depends on how the bike was originally tuned.

If the lower gearing dosen't do it for you .
A 107 with decent heads will do 112-118 hp 118-120 tq add a cheap SE 58 mm throttle body is always a good idea.
There are probably more 107 big bore engines out there than any other combo . ( besides a SE 103 stage 4 kit)
No need to split the cases and weld the crank , there are thousand upon thousands of these 103-107 combos running around . The advantage of the 103 vs 107 is a little more compression and forged pistons. 4 ci extra will gain you minimum of 4 hp.
If you want a 120-125 hp 107 , your better off buying a crate 120 R . Or a crate S&S 111 or 124

[Nitro-Fish]

I may be mistaken, but if I recall an old racing formula; if you want to be able to "really feel" the gain from performance upgrades you have to increase your current combination by 10% in which case you would have to be in the 102 hp & 123 tq range.  I'm sure there are others on here that can correct this if I'm wrong, and may even be able to explain it a little better.  There is always the pulley/ratio change (gearing) which others have mentioned that really doesn't increase your actual numbers just moves the rpm range in which your numbers are operating. Good luck in your quest.

[Mirrmu]

My experience with the 57H cams is that they do feel a bit soft down low. Certainly no worse than stock but compared to my previous 103 with the SE255's (love 'em or hate 'em but those cams make bottom end torque...) the 57H cams do nothing for lower rpm torque.

Once the tach moves north of about 2800 rpm though, the 57H comes into its own and rips pretty good right to red line which happens quickly. My first indication of how much more torque there was in the upper rpms was massive clutch slippage when I first road tested the new install. That has since been rectified and the Road King now moves out pretty good for a big touring bike.

I haven't had my Road King on the dyno but last week a young feller pulled up beside me at the lights with what was clearly hot rod Dyna. When the light turned green, He stood that Dyna up on its back wheel and was gone. When I eventually caught up to him at the next set of lights, I decided to see if I could keep up to him just for fun. The light turned green and off we went. While there was no way I was going to pass him, he was clearly surprised to see that I was able to stay with him for a ways down the road and into speeds that were well beyond my usual pace. After that little full throttle comparison, I was pretty pleased with the performance of my Road King.

That being said, I am tempted to try what BUBBIE has suggested and throw an advance gear in there to see if that improves the bottom end a little.

good post, SE255, Tman 555 torque cam could be the best and cheapest method to change the delivery of the TQ and HP

to change that pulley you will need to get pulley off, can be an exercise if don't have right tools

[boooby1744]

I may be mistaken, but if I recall an old racing formula; if you want to be able to "really feel" the gain from performance upgrades you have to increase your current combination by 10% in which case you would have to be in the 102 hp & 123 tq range.  I'm sure there are others on here that can correct this if I'm wrong, and may even be able to explain it a little better.  There is always the pulley/ratio change (gearing) which others have mentioned that really doesn't increase your actual numbers just moves the rpm range in which your numbers are operating. Good luck in your quest.

It's called torque multiplication.think riding riding a 15 speed bike instead of one of those fixed gear ones.

[joe_lyons]

30 tooth pulley does require more work than just bolt on.  If wanting to gear change then through the primary would work out decent.   

The 57s are a decent cam,  with having the ability to spend 2k on the motor I would suggest good headwork,  possibly throttlebody, bump in compression (possibly through heads or pistons), and different cams to match the new compression then tune.

[Bikerscum]

Not EXPENSIVE to do....

TRY:  the andrews +- 4* Pinion Gear and put it on crank...  Advance... 4* sooner Intake Closing... Might Just be what you need... Lower torque Earlier On...

signed....BUBBIE

Different engine I know but...

I emailed Andrews when I put the 57h in my wethead, and asked about the 4* for more torque...

Hello,

   Just purchased the 57H for my '15 Harley Limited. (103 wethead) Wondering if
the 4 degree gear would be a good addition to this while I'm in there. I like
the added torque aspect if it would make a difference in my application. I
have a Full V&H exhaust, high flow aircleaner, Power Vision tuner, and will
bet getting a pro tune done after installation. Of course have adjustable
pushrods & new lifters as well.


No, I would install the 57H cam as is without a 4 degree sprocket. The 57 cam already matches the 103 engine and compression ratio, no need to use the sprocket

Gary Wallace | Technical Support


Andrews Products | High Performance Cams and Gears
431 Kingston Court | Mount Prospect, IL 60056
847-759-0190 Ext. 38 | 847-759-0848 Fax

[Barrett]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,81449.0.html  It works fine here..

[BUBBIE]

Well, I Guess I'm Old School and like the EXTRA compression = POWER...

IF and When I do a 57 cam without added head work? I'd use the 4* advance for my 103...

Liking a tad more compression than Most suggest, and Has been add for my altitude then Plus the 4* gear.

I see Max running High Compression and He is at about sea level... 

Different Strokes for Different Folks...

signed....BUBBIE

[PoorUB]

I have an opinion that Andrews likes to recommend on the safe side. For example they say the 57 is fine with stock compression, IMO, you can bump the compression with the 57. I am running the 57 in a 103" at 10.30 with no problem at all and it could run more compression yet. Also Andrews does not recommend the 48 for 103". Several here run them in a 103" with no issue.

[Matt C]

As compression is increased, the point of diminishing return is approached
due to pumping losses and thermal issues. (Thermal issues are especially
prevelant on air cooled engines)

For example: A bump from 9 to 10 yields s a whole lot more than going from
10 to 11. From 11 to 12 even less. And so on...

With that, 10.5-10.8 is probably the sweet spot for our air cooled street machines.

Just my opinion here of course. Take it with a grain of salt...

[Ratman1640]

Ok so if I raise the compression and have some head work done , what C/R would be the sweet spot and do I have to worry about pinging when the weather is hot and what would be my torque range ?