Target tune closer to coming to market?

[q1svt]

Thanks 

[joe_lyons]

Now we need to hop up your sportster Andy.  You can't ride that thing stock.

[whittlebeast]

Now we need to hop up your sportster Andy.  You can't ride that thing stock.

I'm good, thank you.  You may be shocked how good a Sporty can be.  Very few people ever opt to fix the EFI tune first.

By the way, the O2s screwing with the Pulse Width in a huge way is now gone with TT.  I have no clue if DJ found that bust or if Harley did and fixed it on later code.

Any

[joe_lyons]

But faster is funner

[whittlebeast]

Here is data off the Sporty running Target Tune. Not bad for a first shot tune.  The Target Tune is doing it's job beautifully.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Hitting%20Targets.png

On the left is the Target AFR and on the right is the actual AFR.

Andy

[Hilly13]

Now we need to hop up your sportster Andy.  You can't ride that thing stock.

I'm good, thank you.  You may be shocked how good a Sporty can be.  Very few people ever opt to fix the EFI tune first.

By the way, the O2s screwing with the Pulse Width in a huge way is now gone with TT.  I have no clue if DJ found that bust or if Harley did and fixed it on later code.

Any

Got to agree Andy, stage one and tuned as opposed to flashed is chalk an cheese from my personal experience with several bikes recently, 08 cvo 110 springer, 08 96" Streetbob, 2015 103 Streetglide, all stockers except for air and exhaust, owners can't believe the difference, 3 out of 3 and they all ran the bikes in flashed form for some time beforehand. I totally relied on the SEPST software though, I have no doubt they could be better.

[Hilly13]

Here is data off the Sporty running Target Tune. Not bad for a first shot tune.  The Target Tune is doing it's job beautifully.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Hitting%20Targets.png

On the left is the Target AFR and on the right is the actual AFR.

Andy

If what's being shown as reported is accurate then it does look pretty good if I'm reading these dots right, might be a good thing?

[FLTRI]

Here is data off the Sporty running Target Tune. Not bad for a first shot tune.  The Target Tune is doing it's job beautifully.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Hitting%20Targets.png

On the left is the Target AFR and on the right is the actual AFR.

Andy

Is this your Sporty? What was the state of tune when you started?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Jamie converted the tune I did 5 years ago to a TT tune.  It was reasonably close.  Closed loop trims were within about +/- about 7% when I went to Target Tune.  That screen shot was the TT correcting the tune I started with.  I have not done any of the autotuning stuff yet.  I was just starting to play with the system.

Updating the SW and the total install, including hiding all of the wires, took about 2 hours total.  It had been about 5 years since I had played with a Power Vision so it took a little wile to dial myself back in to the routine.

Here is the autotune video.  I will try it this weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-x9NcQ5TWc

A few details are apparently a little different when you go TT compared to this Pro Tune video.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Jamie converted the tune I did 5 years ago to a TT tune.  It was reasonably close.  Closed loop trims were within about +/- about 7% when I went to Target Tune.  That screen shot was the TT correcting the tune I started with.  I have not done any of the autotuning stuff yet.  I was just starting to play with the system.

Updating the SW and the total install, including hiding all of the wires, took about 2 hours total.  It had been about 5 years since I had played with a Power Vision so it took a little wile to dial myself back in to the routine.

Here is the autotune video.  I will try it this weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-x9NcQ5TWc

A few details are apparently a little different when you go TT compared to this Pro Tune video.

Andy

Maybe a fun test would be to put a known poor tune into the bike and watch the magic as the autotune system pulls the tune in?
Taking a really close tune and using autotune to trim it in (5-10%) is certainly an indication of the system working but most who will use this product have a bike that runs poorly to begin with.
Also what exhaust design is on this bike? Is it a stock headpipe and O2 bungs with the balance tube in place?

Bob

[whittlebeast]

see post 424

[98fxstc]

Maybe a fun test would be to put a known poor tune into the bike and watch the magic as the autotune system pulls the tune in?
Taking a really close tune and using autotune to trim it in (5-10%) is certainly an indication of the system working but most who will use this product have a bike that runs poorly to begin with.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Let's think out of the Harley box here......  if all I care about is smooth running and outrageous throttle response, when running Target Tune, what is the perfect Target AFR off idle and thru the midrange?

I did not buy the bike for gas mileage and simply don't care about it.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Let's think out of the Harley box here......  if all I care about is smooth running and outrageous throttle response, when running Target Tune, what is the perfect Target AFR off idle and thru the midrange?

I did not buy the bike for gas mileage and simply don't care about it.

Andy

2 questions come from that post...
Why do we need to think outside the Harley box (world)'for tuning?
Why would ideal AFR be different for any system for off idle through the midrange?

Lean and mean off idle through midrange. On a Sporty it equates to 14:1-14.4:1
How's that?
Bob

[azlou66]

Jamie converted the tune I did 5 years ago to a TT tune.  It was reasonably close.  Closed loop trims were within about +/- about 7% when I went to Target Tune.  That screen shot was the TT correcting the tune I started with.  I have not done any of the autotuning stuff yet.  I was just starting to play with the system.

Updating the SW and the total install, including hiding all of the wires, took about 2 hours total.  It had been about 5 years since I had played with a Power Vision so it took a little wile to dial myself back in to the routine.

Here is the autotune video.  I will try it this weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-x9NcQ5TWc

A few details are apparently a little different when you go TT compared to this Pro Tune video.

Andy

Maybe a fun test would be to put a known poor tune into the bike and watch the magic as the autotune system pulls the tune in?
Taking a really close tune and using autotune to trim it in (5-10%) is certainly an indication of the system working but most who will use this product have a bike that runs poorly to begin with.
Also what exhaust design is on this bike? Is it a stock headpipe and O2 bungs with the balance tube in place?

Bob

Better yet put the bad tune in, put bike on a dyno and do a base line pull. Run TT until AAF and CLI  are both +/-5% then put the bike back on the dyno and do another base line pull. Now do a complete dyno tune and post the results from the three. Might learn something here.

[whittlebeast]

The problem  with a dyno is there is no "smoothness gauge".  It only knows torque and RPM.  EFI tuning is all about hitting your Target AFRs no mater what you throw at the motor in real world conditions.

Lots of the Harley mind set on perfect AFR is tweaked by the very narrow limits limits of a narrow band sensor.  They only excel at one AFR, 14.7.  They simply suck everywhere else.

I want to run as close to where the motor extremely happy as I can get.  Not 14.7 as that is the only place I can get a quality reading.

Target tune has given the Harley world the keys to the kingdom that everyone else has had for years.  Now you can even do it at home.

Wide bands may have their limits also but they are way more helpful away from 14.7

Andy

[whittlebeast]

I did some Autotuning and testing and the results are insanely good.  I will try to get a big log this weekend.

Andy

[FLTRI]

I did some Autotuning and testing and the results are insanely good.  I will try to get a big log this weekend.

Andy

Careful Andy, you might get a little on you!
Better than perfect?
Bob

[hrdtail78]

I did some Autotuning and testing and the results are insanely good.  I will try to get a big log this weekend.

Andy

Can you spend some time above 4000.  I would like to see it do it's thing at higher RPM's and KPA where the narrow band system don't work.

[azlou66]

The problem  with a dyno is there is no "smoothness gauge".  It only knows torque and RPM.  EFI tuning is all about hitting your Target AFRs no mater what you throw at the motor in real world conditions.

Lots of the Harley mind set on perfect AFR is tweaked by the very narrow limits limits of a narrow band sensor.  They only excel at one AFR, 14.7.  They simply suck everywhere else.

I want to run as close to where the motor extremely happy as I can get.  Not 14.7 as that is the only place I can get a quality reading.

Target tune has given the Harley world the keys to the kingdom that everyone else has had for years.  Now you can even do it at home.

Wide bands may have their limits also but they are way more helpful away from 14.7

Andy

Andy if I don't put my bike on a dyno how can I measure what my TT has done for my tune? I can go by my but dyno but that is subjective to say the least. Can I use MLVHD to assign numbers to TQ and HP? I am trying to learn to interpret what MLVHD is telling me but a lot of it is still Greek to me.

[whittlebeast]

It is difficult to to put a true HP or Torque number on a motor based on looking at data logs.  What you can do is acceleration testing from the same stretch of road and compare the RPM per sec or the MPH per sec rate.

I am finding the MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle is a very good visual way of figuring out if the motor is tuning in.  Especially valid over the 90% of the time you spend below about 85 KPA.  On the high power end of the motor operating range, it is better to just use MAP vs RPM and average AFR as your basis of making fueling decisions.

Bob, you have been convinced me that the only way you will ever buy any of this is by having you play with a Target Tune and then if you look at the data afterwards, you will see the same patterns developing.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

The Sporty is really dialing in with Target Tune.  This is after one quick tweak based on what I was seeing in MegaLogViewer and then one Target Tune Autotune session.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20PW%20%20View.png

As I ride, the CLIs are running in the 97 to 103 range most all the time.

I am running mostly 14 AFR and fade to 13 at WOT.  The little blue tail on the bottom left is the cold start enrichment.  Not a concern.

Great job Dynojet.  This thing works as well as any system I play with.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

And this is my Sporty and the Target Tune system doing it's magic.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Hitting%20AFR%20Targets.png

Andy

[azlou66]

It is difficult to to put a true HP or Torque number on a motor based on looking at data logs.  What you can do is acceleration testing from the same stretch of road and compare the RPM per sec or the MPH per sec rate.

I am finding the MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle is a very good visual way of figuring out if the motor is tuning in.  Especially valid over the 90% of the time you spend below about 85 KPA.  On the high power end of the motor operating range, it is better to just use MAP vs RPM and average AFR as your basis of making fueling decisions.
Andy

Andy can you post screen shots of the scatter plots you use for these?
I can't seem to get the axis' set correctly.

[glens]

The problem  with a dyno is there is no "smoothness gauge".  It only knows torque and RPM.  EFI tuning is all about hitting your Target AFRs no mater what you throw at the motor in real world conditions.

And how do you know, first, that the AFR you're targeting is really what it says it is, and second, that it's really what's best if so?