Ignition Timing Logic. There has to be a pattern.

[glens]

Keep in mind that Inlet Mass Flow is very close to MAPxRPM.  You guys have those so you have Inlet Mass Flow.

Only, maybe, to the extent the MAP sensor read-time is properly (optimally) selected in the calibration...

[whittlebeast]

I found that about 8 years ago when I figured out you guys were dealing with a Hybrid speed density system.  Most everything I mess with these days are pure Speed Density.

IE:  ([MAP]*[RPM]*[VE]*14.7/[TargetAFR]) directly drives fuel flow.   Yes, I realize IAT, Warmup, Ambient air pressure... gets involved but all that all adds to a fairly small correction in the big picture.

Bob, it looks like I need to do a "Basic scatter plots, what are they" thread.  Ignoring how this is going to get an engine tuned.  Have you googled it?

Here is a good one.  https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/scatter-xy-plots.html

This subject has everything to do with all of EFI tuning works and how Autotunes work.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

This is a really cool feature in MegaLogViewer HD.  With the scatter plot screen, you can take any pair of X and Y axises in you log and plot then with the third Z axis display any third thing.  In this example I plotted X as RPM, Y as MAP and Z as the Target AFR

On the right is how I can generate exactly the same data all rolled up into the boxes that I desire.  The boxes in this case is the fueling break points in my VE table.  Keep in mind that this is a very simple example.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Scatter%20Plot%20to%20Histogram%20View.png

In the software, these two views ar actually on two different screens.  I used copy-paste to produce this screen shot.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Bob, it looks like I need to do a "Basic scatter plots, what are they" thread...

So your answer is no, you will not point to where you are referring to on the scatter plots so we can follow along?
No we need to read up on scatter plots to be able to see your points?
Come on Andy, why do you continually refer to these scatter plots without pointing to the specifics of what you refer to?
Humor us and simply circle and/point to the comparisons so we all can follow along with your statements.
Thanks,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The problem is the more I try to help, the more I get machine gunned.  So all I can do here is point people in a direction of learning.  I love to teach and learn.

[FLTRI]

The problem is the more I try to help, the more I get machine gunned.  So all I can do here is point people in a direction of learning.  I love to teach and learn.

No, Andy, you're wrong when you say "all you can do is point people in a direction of learning" when all you do is post scatter graphs without any explanation of worth so we can also learn.
The reason for the machine gunning is when asked to show your point in detail all we get is changing subjects. Comments about how cool it is to look at data.
When you post a scatter graph explain what the value is and how you used it to identify and/or correct a running issue. Show us on the graph you post...with arrows and/or circles.
That would be the help we need to understand your findings.
Geez,
Bob

[glens]

C'mon, Andy.  Put some armor on and go for it!

[whittlebeast]

The other funny thing on the Harley sites is people with issues never appear to want to post the tune and a log.  I have never figured that one out.

[Tsani]

The other funny thing on the Harley sites is people with issues never appear to want to post the tune and a log.  I have never figured that one out.

Funny thing is when you are asked to post up a Harley big twin based tune and relevant data for point discussions, you don't either. All we see is a pretty graph of a non HD ecm or a jetski, maybe a car. Hmmmm.

It seems fairly clear to me that you are not here to teach, but to fetch. Kinda like a scientist saying, hey I have made this great new discovery, it's better than what you use, but you need to give me your research data to prove it.
If you made it a point to clearly explain the process and points on relevant data/tune instead knocking what we are given by the MOCO to work with then maybe data and tune would be made available to you. Not everyone has a MAF sensor, etc, in case you haven't noticed. Yet you throw all that around and expect us to relate it to what we have? Apples and oranges Andy, apples and oranges.

Another factoid for ya, these are shark infested waters here. Get a thick skin, leave your feelings at home and remember the best repellant is proof and facts and a willingness to discuss contrary opinions. Otherwise, your no better than others who are busy throwing barbs,etc. Even I can say I have been guilty of that but am sure trying not. Hard to ignore it tho.

I will even go a step farther. I will even post up one cal along with data in CVS format that your Megalog viewer uses for discussion. But with the following caveats:
Discuss the examination step by step, make no assumptions that we know what you are talking about.
Point out precisely what you are referring to. Make no assumption we see what you see.
Stay on point, apples to apples. We have Delphi ECMs, not Motec and these are not Jetskis, etc.
Do not attempt to alter the cal or data to make it fit, I have the originals.
However if you want to have something tried, ask after providing a clear explanation and backing up of why keeping in mind that the final decision to make said change up stays with the person willing to do it, unless of course your willing to put your bike on the line, then have at it.
Keep in mind, this a DIY site, even tho there are quite a few "experts" visiting here. So it's like riding with a newbie, ya gotta ride at their level unless you want to kill em.
I personally don't care what you or anyone else thinks of TTS, PV, SEST, Direct Tune, Dynos, or any other tuning aid. This about your "process".

Deviate from that and I will call ya out on it.
All this bickering and whinning gets old fast.
Now, do you want to share and engage or just collect data and tunes to feed your addiction?
So it's time to pull on your big girl panties or walk away.
Here's your chance.

[Tsani]

Hmmmm

[whittlebeast]

TTS logs have most of the useful things for autotuning fuel hidden under the covers.  They were hidden about 8 years ago.  The timing stuff may be of value.  I would need to see the logs.

[Tsani]

I guess we can start with:
So you need TTS data files?
How do you intend to pull data from the TTS data files without using the DataMaster export function?
My take on what you just said is that the Harley Davidson Big Twin Delphi ECM is sending data out that is recorded by the communications interface that is not being shown?
And these "things" are ?
And if you look at the "raw" data, how do you intend to determine what is good and what is junk? The way I understand it is that the ECM sends the data out kinda of willy nilly, luck of the draw type of sequence. So some data will not have the needed corresponding support data for a specific event at a certain time.

These are questions that have been asked before and the answers do not require a data file yet. But it is a good start because it starts to lay the start of the "process" out.

[FLTRI]

TTS logs have most of the useful things for autotuning fuel hidden under the covers.  They were hidden about 8 years ago.  The timing stuff may be of value.  I would need to see the logs.

Sounds like there is a plethora of "things" for autotuning hidden under the covers.
What tables, etc are hidden from you that prevents you from properly tuning a Harley?
Specifically what tuning strategy is not available due to hiding?
Which hidden tables do you say "man if I only had the ability to change this thing it would make the engine run much better"?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Long term fuel trims and I think there is a default MAP table.  There most likely is a altitude correction table.

[PoorUB]

Long term fuel trims and I think there is a default MAP table.  TheRe most likely is a altitude correction table.

Altitude correction table? Based on what sensor inputs?

[joe_lyons]

Map sensor

[Tsani]

It will be about a week before I can post anything up. Having hard drive issues. System is unreliable. New drive is on the way.
Andy - How are you going to look at the data logs as I will want to look at them at the same time. If I need to load new software, it will be after the new drive is cloned.

[FLTRI]

Long term fuel trims and I think there is a default MAP table.  There most likely is a altitude correction table.

I'm with ya. Based on seeing the long term fuel tables what type of changes would you make?
Default MAP table? explain please.
What changes to the altitude correction table do you see yourself making to improve run quality?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

It will be about a week before I can post anything up. Having hard drive issues. System is unreliable. New drive is on the way.
Andy - How are you going to look at the data logs as I will want to look at them at the same time. If I need to load new software, it will be after the new drive is cloned.

I use MegaLogViewer HD.  It goes for right at $40.  Any filters or special fields I create can be exported and sent to a friend.  From TTS, you export a CSV file and view it in MLV.  Power vision log files open right up in MLV.  It also opens lots of other EFI logs out there on the market.

Regarding Bob's questions, The long term trims are easier to explain once I have data to do a screen shot to show.  It has lots to do with how you tune EFI when the data rates are way too slow.  Much the same as working with the timing retard when the knock noise is happening way too fast to catch on the loggers.  You will catch on....

Right now I am up to my &^*%$$ in Motec tuning as World Finals is coming up in the fall and the racers are dialing in there final tunes.

Andy

[Tsani]

Back up and running with a back up drive. Have a solid state hybrid drive coming on Monday.

So, Andy, how do you pull LTFT from the data? The default MAP table? The altitude correction table?

I assume this is derived data from a formula?

[whittlebeast]

What are you logging with?

Andy

[FLTRI]

The long term trims are easier to explain once I have data to do a screen shot to show.  It has lots to do with how you tune EFI when the data rates are way too slow.  Much the same as working with the timing retard when the knock noise is happening way too fast to catch on the loggers.  You will catch on....
Andy

I didn't ask you for an explanation of data. I asked what specifically identify a tune "bust" as you state it, and the fix you used to correct the running issue.
It doesn't matter what data just show us the bust and the fix you used with the resultant data to support your fix.
As far as data rates being slow...you can't do anything about that other than guess at what's missing in the middle between 2 data points.
Andy, you always show data pictures but NEVER pinpoint a running issue then the resultant picture showing the bad spot (bust) has disappeared.
When you can provide that information we may be able to see what you see, so plainly per your comments, so we can all learn from your plots.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bob, post up some data and let's take a look.  Power Vision tends to be slower but more complete.  TTS CAN is faster but lots of the useful stuff is hidden.

Whatever you have...

Andy

[FLTRI]

Bob, post up some data and let's take a look.  Power Vision tends to be slower but more complete.  TTS CAN is faster but lots of the useful stuff is hidden.

Whatever you have...

Andy

Still looking for you to explain and show any data you have as scatter plots to show a bust and how you fixed it.
You don't need Harley data to show a tuning bust in scatter plot and what you did to fix the bust and how the picture changed.
Come on Andy, don't change the subject to me having to supply data. You obviously have a plethora of busted tunes you've fixed. Just use your data and pinpoint your explanation.

Bob

[wolf_59]

Andy, it would really help us if you would start a thread "scatter plots for beginners" or something of the sort, I try to read all your post and the scatter plots are fine but I'm not seeing what your talking about, all I see is "OH Pretty Picture" but what does it mean? and what should it look like? How do we get it there?
Interested in what your saying just help us understand what your saying