Stock vs. ported vs. aftermarket heads?

[Finn]

Right.

So, ported heads produce better numbers - as long as the porter knows what he/she is doing. But how much more do porting of the heads actually make on a mild build?

With other details being more or less the same are we talking about 5...10 hp and same sort of increase in torque?

How well do aftermarket heads, for example S&S Super Stock heads - do against ported stock heads?

I'm asking this because shipping my own heads to US to be ported or getting ones from US with core fee will bring the prices more or less to the level of aftermarket heads.

[Finn]

FWIW this is about 1999-2006 twin cams.

[Jaycee1964]

How about some details on your build and what your expecting to achieve?

[Finn]

2003 FLHR, 31800 miles
- stock TC88 with Andrews TW26 and S&S Premium lifters
- S&S Stealth air cleaner
- stock headers
- Hooker Tuned Flow slip-ons
- CV40 re-jetted spot on
- stock ignition module

What I'd like to do is get get everything out of TW26 as possible within reasonably costs.

At over 31k miles I probably will have cylinders bored for SE 95" cast flat tops. Goal is to maximize torque and area under torque curve and HP will be what it will be. So a so called stump puller is what I have in my mind.

[BUBBIE]

Just to add to the conversation.

Different build I Know.

My 09 King : I went to 103 using SE255 cams... (you go to 95")

Worked with Don Dorfman on my heads (HD Street Performance). Being I used the Stump Puller cams SE255's (school bus cams). I bought a set of 08 stock Heads from Don. He tightened them up a bit,  keeping the valves stock sized but added a little more compression.  (shaved some) Blueprinted to even out the Head cc's. Added manual compression releases.

Very pleased with this set-up.

Reason I say this is I have plenty of the stuff YOU want in your build and Nothing Serious done to the heads. Yes,  shaved some and using the .030 head gaskets, The stock (08) heads Move a good amount of air. Yes 08 Heads  on my 09 May Differ than yours. But a lot of Porting and the cams You are using May Not be needed.  Big valves and Porting to make the stump puller you want might be there already without Porting and modifying the heads.

Your location and the $$$ needed to get a "port job"?  IF Not needed and kept stock might be the Key to your build and saving money. OR "Porter" Might suggest a later head you can Buy in your area and do just Great With keeping them Stock...

signed....BUBBIE


Maybe a "head porter" will jump in here to give their opinion.

[Don D]

Stock reworked heads and seasoned used cylinders bored would be your best option. I have head and cylinder cores I supply to avoid unnecessary shipping costs to foreign countries. We can discuss options offline and you can visit my website to see the packages, look at the "Street Pro TQ" package.
Thanks Don

[hrdtail78]

I have seen good increase in low and mid range tq curve with 95, 26, and a good street port.  A couple of them have had heads come from HD street Performance.

[PanHeadRed]

But how much more do porting of the heads actually make on a mild build? .........are we talking about 5...10 hp and same sort of increase in torque?

Or more,  potential to out gain  a Stage I pipe and air cleaner change.

How well do aftermarket heads, for example S&S Super Stock heads - do against ported stock heads?

As well or better if all things are equal. Example Hurricane, MVA, S&S Super Stock,etc.. you will hard pressed to get this level of cylinder head from a stock casting.

I'm asking this because shipping my own heads to US to be ported or getting ones from US with core fee will bring the prices more or less to the level of aftermarket heads.

Unless the porter is offering 2" valves, etc.,like the after market heads it's a no brainer.

[Jaycee1964]

Before you spend any $$$ call Jim Libo @ Mega-flo

http://www.mega-flo.com/
724-368-3955  but don't call him till 4-5 EST

He will guide you to what you want "exactly"

[prodrag1320]

with the 26 cams,dont get talked into big port/big valve heads.good,mild touring headwork is what your looking for

[Matt C]

You don't need 2" valves for a build like
you're talking about. ported factory castings
using a good 1.850 has shown 270s with great
velocity.

We're not talking about a 7500 rpm motor here.
Port velocity will give you neck snapping torque
you're looking for... 2cents

[1workinman]

I have seen a few dyno charts that had a good set of head with a mild camshaft and wondered if the heads were the main reason there was early torque and carried  out so far . It may have been good compression and a exhaust that worked good with the port flow, camshaft timing events. I have seen what a good set of heads will do on a Chevrolet will do I assume that is the same for Harley . Thanks the advice Jim

[Matt C]

The heads are the bottle-neck. If your heads are good
It takes allot less cam to accomplish what it would
otherwise take

[BUBBIE]

MY Example:

My Old 1995 883 to 1200 using 10.5 wiseco's ..... Using the STOCK 883 Heads made a Low RPM Torque' motor... Using 1200 heads would have Made it less Torque' and at higher rpm.

Lot more compression/less cc'ed also with the smaller heads n stock valves (883) BIG Difference...

Cams were kept stock 883...


Asking Jerry Branch (Branch Heads).... Late night phone conversation (long ago).... Telling him, I already bought the 10.5 to 1 wiseco's  "He said Use them,  But they will not fit my heads"...

He said "use the 1200 conversion Wiseco's with your freshened 883 heads" ...."put 500 miles on it....   find a telephone pole and Climb it.... Then call me back"...

I asked: What about Cams? ........He Yelled over the phone.... "There you go, telling me your Wanting Torque NOW you want to Cam It all Away"...

Good Man that Jerry Branch....

signed....BUBBIE

[Matt C]

"Overcamming" is very common (based on my experience). From drag boats to sprint cars to street machines;
the common misconception is if a little bit of cam is good, more is better. And too much is just right.

The other thing allot of people don't give more consideration to, are the heads. There's no sense in putting
a 570 lift cam in when the heads peter out at 490!

The reason that engine in the example above was so well mannered and "carried out" so well was that the cam
duration was conservative and, the heads worked.

I'm beginning to think that anything beyond a very mild cam is a waste of time on these things. If the heads
are not 'fixed', big cams kill low end and the heads restrict top end. So you end up with the worst of both
worlds.

Same thing in the boating world. Most guys are running cams that are Three sizes too big and their heads
are crap. duh!

No amount of cam can overcome "Potty mouth"ty heads. But good heads can overcome a "Potty mouth"ty cam! Ideally, when they
match (heads & cams) you have a really fun to ride machine and it's not ill mannered.
 

[Admiral Akbar]

You don't need 2" valves for a build like
you're talking about. ported factory castings
using a good 1.850 has shown 270s with great
velocity.

We're not talking about a 7500 rpm motor here.
Port velocity will give you neck snapping torque
you're looking for... 2cents

I suspect that the 270s is which an 1.85 AVnV valve..
270 on my bench would be high.. What did you cut the throat to?

[Matt C]

Throat = 89% (It's not an off the shelf valve. It was custom designed by a smart MF'er)

[Admiral Akbar]

As far as the porting recommendation goes look here to see how the heads flow with the CV40.. The 26 is an anemic cam. 

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,8966.msg92101.html#msg92101

Make a judgement call on cost of flow to your own satisfaction base on the CV40. (you could always go to a bigger carb). More flow is better that cam but you don't need high lift.

You will will need a DTT ignition.. You technically should have one now.. Also a better pipe will help but the old Siamesed pipe ain't too bad (I hear).

[Admiral Akbar]

Throat = 89% (It's not an off the shelf valve. It was custom designed by a smart MF'er)

Mondello?

Add:
At what lift was max flow?

[Matt C]

.700

[strokerjlk]

2003 FLHR, 31800 miles
- stock TC88 with Andrews TW26 and S&S Premium lifters
- S&S Stealth air cleaner
- stock headers
- Hooker Tuned Flow slip-ons
- CV40 re-jetted spot on
- stock ignition module

What I'd like to do is get get everything out of TW26 as possible within reasonably costs.

At over 31k miles I probably will have cylinders bored for SE 95" cast flat tops. Goal is to maximize torque and area under torque curve and HP will be what it will be. So a so called stump puller is what I have in my mind.

A 95 with stock heads and your combo will make 80-85 hp / 90-95 tq
A decent set of heads will get you 85 95 hp 95-100 tq .
5-10 hp / tq gain is what you can expect . Depending on how good the heads are and how good the tune is will determine if its more or less .
Personally I would pick a better cam if I was paying for head work .
The biggest gains to be seen on what you're doing , is by getting the compression up some .

[clawdog60]

The heads are the bottle-neck. If your heads are good
It takes allot less cam to accomplish what it would
otherwise take

[TorQuePimp]

Before you spend any $$$ call Jim Libo @ Mega-flo

http://www.mega-flo.com/
724-368-3955  but don't call him till 4-5 EST

He will guide you to what you want "exactly"

  Not a bad idea at all 

[TorQuePimp]

Throat = 89% (It's not an off the shelf valve. It was custom designed by a smart MF'er)

  90% 263.7 @ .600  272.6 @ .700

  The av&v is a little long IF you are going to use stock springs....2.040-2.050 VSP is a little deep for what these should be for

[Finn]

Thank you all for comments and suggestions. Commercial proposals are interesting but the main problem is additional cost of freight + 24% VAT. 

Decisions, decisions...