Comparing Different Tunes on the Same Bike

[whittlebeast]

I think it would be fun to take one bike and tune this bike with different methods and different tuning methods.  Each tune will be logged on a PowerVision on a fixed 80 mile loop by the same rider trying hard to ride the bike the same way.

Lets see what people think of the first tune.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=2170

And the base tune that was running the bike.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/orig.MT9

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Try this link.  It is a zipped up version of the link above.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/orig_tune_log.zip

[rigidthumper]

Constants set to 141.4" displacement with 5.32 injectors- must be a deep breathin big ass motor!

[whittlebeast]

I think it is a fairly bumpy cam, big throttle body, 113 CI build.  I can ask. 

[whittlebeast]

Constants set to 141.4" displacement with 5.32 injectors- must be a deep breathin big ass motor!

The reported VE Front goes from about 63-121.   The reported VE Rear goes from about 61 - 113.  That seems reasonable to me.

[rigidthumper]

True, assuming the VEs were calibrated accurately. Just seems like a lot of overhead to me. My 120R (roughly 140 Square) was set at 120.9 CID, with 5.32 injectors. VE range 57-112, 60-121.

[whittlebeast]

Did yo guys notice that the O2s went almost full rich from about 1145 sec till 1900 sec?  The VSS was averaging about 40 MPH for most of that 12 min.

The AFF and the CLI were flat line for almost the entire 12 min.

I wonder I wonder if this is all related?

[hrdtail78]

If that is the base.  Bring it on over and let's see what I can do with it using the feature TTS gives you.  That is EGR and Cam tune.  IME with TTS.  The cubic inch usually match's much closer.

Have you had good success logging TTS calibrated ECM with vision?  It would make more since to use TTS as the logger.  Much, much faster speeds.  I understand it doesn't give VE new but that really isn't as important as it is made out to be.

Is the vision and TTS locked to the bike?

[whittlebeast]

I think both the TTS and the PV is locked to the same bike.

I have no clue as to how the bike was tuned on the dyno.  It could have been any combination of autotuning and hand tuned.  The owner just watched the tuner do his work.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

I have no clue as to how the bike was tuned on the dyno.  It could have been any combination of autotuning and hand tuned.  The owner just watched the tuner do his work.

Andy

To do a good comparison.  A good, known baseline needs to be apart of that, or we are back to apples and oranges. 

[whittlebeast]

That log is the baseline.

[hrdtail78]

That log is the baseline.

An unknown is the base line?  OK.  What's the next step?

[whittlebeast]

What would you do if that was what showed up to your shop as an Email?  Advise him that it as perfect, go ride it?  Seek professional help, the only way to fix this is get it on a dyno?  Autotune it and see if it fixes itself?

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Try and make him an appointment for a dyno tune.  I don't email tune.  I am a dyno tuner and that is my business.  If others want to email tune for people across the country so be it.  I haven't found a way to make money giving out email tunes.  I also don't want to take money out of other tuners pocket because I gave out some free calibration tweeks so I am more popular on the forums.

General changes to the spark tables, no change to the spark temp table, no change to warm up even though cubic inch went way up, general changes to AE and DE........  Anything I would do is just a guess through email.

[FLTRI]

What would you do if that was what showed up to your shop as an Email?  Advise him that it as perfect, go ride it?  Seek professional help, the only way to fix this is get it on a dyno?  Autotune it and see if it fixes itself?

Andy

More importantly Andy, what would you do? What is the rider's complaint about how it runs? What's broken and what specifically would you change to fix it.
If the tune was done with autotune then rerunning it should repeat the results?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

He apparently was offered by the "Tuner" a refund or one more retune.  The "Tuner" claimed "The tune was Perfect"

[whittlebeast]

Bob, at the very least, I would advise leaning the bike out enough to get the O2s to start switching and let the ECU help sort this out.

[hrdtail78]

He apparently was offered by the "Tuner" a refund or one more retune.  The "Tuner" claimed "The tune was Perfect"

That makes no sense.  If he is claiming it is perfect.  Why offer a retune or refund?  Like I stated.  Bring it over and I'll tune it.  About all the forum tuning I am going to put effort into.

[whittlebeast]

The owner felt there was something wrong as the bike simply did not feel happy, for lack of a better description.

[whittlebeast]

I found an old email where the owner stated

"The reason I did not like the tune was because the bike ran bad at light cruise, where it should have been in Close Loop."

Apparently he was not offered a retune.  I hear lots of these type stories and may have confused this situation with a different one.  Sorry.

[rbabos]

I found an old email where the owner stated

"The reason I did not like the tune was because the bike ran bad at light cruise, where it should have been in Close Loop."

Apparently he was not offered a retune.  I hear lots of these type stories and may have confused this situation with a different one.  Sorry.

Probably ran like crap in that area because it was in closed loop and it drifted. Very common.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

You mean very common on this forum to talk about, but in the real world it isn't common.  More than likely it was never mapped in those area's correctly.  Tuner didn't test ride it in those areas and missed it.  Understanding how adaptive works and how things are laid out, and what it actually does will help people to realize this.

[rbabos]

You mean very common on this forum to talk about, but in the real world it isn't common.  More than likely it was never mapped in those area's correctly.  Tuner didn't test ride it in those areas and missed it.  Understanding how adaptive works and how things are laid out, and what it actually does will help people to realize this.

True but the fact is the tuner assumed it would be fine in this case. I realize you check it and many here do but there's a lot out there that don't. Remember a few years ago some just went full open loop tuning just to prevent possible come backs. Nowdays it's more of place the problem area into open if needed, once varified there's a problem but keep as much closed loop as possible.
Ron

[FLTRI]

The owner felt there was something wrong as the bike simply did not feel happy, for lack of a better description.

So, based on that comment where would you look for tune busts? Idle? 1500-2500rpms? Light loads? Heavy loads? uphill? downhill? spitting through the intake? backfiring out the exhaust?
"did not feel happy" doesn't describe anything specific enough I can relate to.
Bob
PS - AFAIK there is no such thing as a perfect tune...period. Just too many variables the system has to deal with to be "right" 100% of the time.

[hrdtail78]

How do you plan on comparing the different tunes?  It isn't with Map X RPM?