WBO2's

[q1svt]

So, now we have a lot of specs on how to use the 4.2 by the manufactures.  How does this transfer to the HD world?

see the following...  note blue comments

The things I've learn from Bosch today:

9. Installation instructions
In general, the sensor installation point must be tested sufficiently by the customer for function and durability in the respective application.


9.1  Installation in the exhaust system must be at a point guaranteeing representative exhaust gas composition whilst also satisfying the specified temperature limits.
* They have no specification as to the distance from the exhaust valve.
From Section 2.4
* They say that if the exhaust gas reaches 850*c the heater turns off and that effects the sensor accuracy.
* They say that if the sensor is operating at 850*c +; or the hexagon at 500*c +; the use of a longer bung is recommended [normal minimum is 13mm...] .


9.2  The heater power must always be switched on power controlled (e.g. duty cycled heater power), starting with a maximum ramp-up duty cycle as shown in the diagram in section 1.4. This is necessary to reduce thermal stress of the sensor element at cold start due to high peak power in the first seconds.


9.3  The active sensor ceramic element is heated up quickly when the heater power is switched on. This means that the sensor installation location must be selected to minimize exhaust side stressing of the sensor ceramic element with condensation water in order to prevent ceramic element cracking.


Design measures:

-  Locate sensor as close to the engine as possible, respecting max. allowed temperature range

-  Attempt to achieve rapid heating-up of the exhaust pipes in the area in front of the sensor.

-  The exhaust pipe in front of the sensor should not contain any pockets, projections, protrusions, edges, flex-tubes etc. to avoid accumulation of condensation water. A downwards slope of the pipe is recommended.

-  Make sure, that the front hole of the double protection tube does not point against exhaust gas stream.
This seems to say placement of a 90* bung/boss to close to the downstream outside radius of a bend is not a good idea.


System measures:

-  Never switch on sensor heating resp. control unit before engine start.

-  Delay of sensor heater start or power control of the sensor heater (see diagram in 1.4) as a function of engine and ambient temperature.


9.9 Recommended material for the thread boss in the exhaust pipe:
Temperature resistant stainless Thread boss dimensions should be as in sketch, note that sensor thread must be covered completely.  Note for hot applications (Hexagon @ 500*c), min. 13mm or longer boss to avoid overheating of the protection tube welding and to cool down the sensor hexton.


9.12 The sensor must not be exposed to strong mechanical shocks (e.g. while the sensor is installed). Otherwise the sensor element may crack without visi- ble damage to the sensor housing.


9.13  For physical reasons the sensor needs ambient air at its reference gas side. Replacement of the air volume inside the sensor must be guaranteed by a sufficient air permeability of the wires and the connectors between sensor and ECU.
That it's important where the sensor connectors are located.
That the wiring should not be modified [ie cut, soldered or improperly crimped], because it will affect the reference ambient air source.


9.15  The PTFE formed hose is part of the reference air volume of the sensor and must be kept sealed and undamaged. For installation, the minimum bending radius of the hose must be 20mm (for long PTFE hose) resp. 12mm (for short hose). Keep the PTFE formed hose away from sharp edges and avoid con- tact/friction with frame/engine assembly.
The first fixing point for the cable to the car body should be 200mm to 400mm after the end of the PTFE formed hose, depending on movement of the exhaust system.
That it's important how the sensor wires are run, and how they are attached to the bike. 
That the zips ties holding the wire should be lose.





edited:
Per rageglide 

[q1svt]

AND ...

After 10 years of searching... bingo   just sharing for those that cannot get enough of the details.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.com/en/ubk_semiconductors/clean_economical/engine_management_systems/lambda_probe_interfaces/lambda_probe_interfaces.html#

patten application
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012136715A1?cl=en&dq=WO+2012136715+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rkBMUvWAFuPQiwLO04CQBA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA

where not Bosch directly, still interesting
http://www.waltech.com/open-source-designs/wbo2_report/

Sorry cannot share the Bosch LSU 4.2 complete documentation, but it is out there. [copy right infringement if posted]

edited: Now everyone can talk from the same Bosch documentation...
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/download/Bosch_LSU4.pdf

added:
Pico sells testing tools, but there is a lot of good information woven though out...
https://www.picoauto.com/library/training/testing-the-bosch-lsu-4-2-broadband-oxygen-sensor

[q1svt]

People refer to BC & AC to define time frames...

It was pointed out to many of us that we needed to change, I have hear that massage.
My ACoyote
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86342.0.html

[FLTRI]

All I can say is I love my LSU4 broadband sensor operating within Bosch's guidelines.
I use them at least 4-6 hours each and every day I tune.

I also respect the Dynojet maintenance guidelines for the unit that houses that sensor. I measure the pressure with a kit purchased from Dynojet for monitoring the exhaust pressure the sensor is operating in.

When that pressure changes I service the housing unit and it returns to proper pressure.
So I and most all tuners have extensive experience utilizing the LSU4.
I also have calibration gas at 13.2afr to monitor the sensor itself.

So to say we are not qualified to evaluate the LSU4 sensor performance and idiosyncrasies because we don't use aftermarket fulltime closed loop systems on our bikes, is well, just not considering the extensive experience working with that sensor each day we go to work.

I believe your experience is limited to your own bike(s) and maybe some other buddy bikes. That coupled with your extensive knowledge of what's said and claimed on the Internet doesn't discredit our (tuners) actual, hands on, tested and developed experiences.

If you were to be a bit less demeaning and insulting in your tone and do a bit of listening, you may just learn something you didn't know before?
Bob

[q1svt]

Guys I listen to a lot of knowledgeable people and they have taught me may things, and the process will continue for a long time...   

You two seem to have an issue that I have:
1) chosen not to listen to you two,
2) you seem to keep directly your posts at me expecting me not to reply

I would have fully expected the reply# 76 & 77 to be the end of this thread and maybe the Admins would cut and paste those posts into the sticky section.  BUT now some how Bosch does not seem to know their products or do complete testing.

[FLTRI]

You two seem to have an issue that I have:
1) chosen not to listen to you two,
2) you seem to keep directly your posts at me expecting me not to reply

I believe we have asked you to reply to specific questions however you don't or won't.
Rather an answering our specific questions you seem to go directly to attack mode with your comments. Why?

....BUT now some how Bosch does not seem to know their products or do complete testing.

Another question....Where did that comment come from? We tuners are proponents and respectful of Bosch LSU4 sensors and their technical requirements and specs. It seems it is the folks who own and operate their LSU4 in non-Bosch spec'd conditions that make the most noise (insults) when LSU4 performance is questioned.
Bob

[q1svt]

Here is a very polite exchange on wide band sensor

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,83618.msg938461.html#msg938461
people can/should read the complete thread

Fact is, as Ive stated many times O2 sensors must be located in the actual exhaust stream to get reliable O2 sampling.
The fact that WB sensors have holes in the end doesn't change my statement .
IIRC, same O2 mounting requirements per Bosch for NB and WB sensors.

Today we have the Bosch WB specification of 'at least 13mm', and we know that to get a good sampling for Narrow Bands, especially the new 12mm ones, a 13mm or longer depth of the bung would pull the 12mm way out of the exhaust stream.   

[FLTRI]

FWIW, I have found using the LSU4 in 18mm stock bungs work as reliably as the NBs. If the bungs are short enough to get the sensor noses into the exhaust stream they both work as expected.

IF the O2 bung is 13mm (per spec you quote), the nose of BOTH sensors will be very deep into the exhaust stream. Most all OEM and aftermarket exhaust systems the bungs are WELL OVER 13mm.

IF you have measured EGT over 1562f (850c) you need a lnger bung...to protect it from high heat damage as well as skewing the readings a bit. You also would need a tow truck to get your bike home after running that EGT for any length of time.
IME 1250f is as high as we like to see for Harley high performance, high compression build.

Most street builds and tunes produce under 1000f so extended bung length is not in question.

Now, a longer bung is called for when turbo/super charged builds because they produce excessive combustion temps and subsequent exhaust heat that will damage the sensor so shielding the body helps to keep the sensor alive is proper.
Bob
PS- You state the 12mm mini O2 sensor has the same bung size (13mm) spec as the 18mm sensor. I can't seem to locate that spec in the Bosch paper...

[q1svt]

In the effort to gain additional information on the Bosch 4.2 calibration resistor (that is installed on the side of the connector used as part of the nominal free-air calibration (will post picture later)), I came across the following link.

Pico sells testing tools, but there is a lot of good information woven though out...

https://www.picoauto.com/library/training/testing-the-bosch-lsu-4-2-broadband-oxygen-sensor



edited:here is a picture shown with the protective cover removed, blue circle is the resistor

[FLTRI]

IIRC, there are a couple autotune systems that eliminate the use of that resister?
Bob

[Steve Cole]

I believe SC has been preaching this for years and years only to fall on deaf ears especially as related to broadband O2 sensors.
It was obvious from the start exhaust mfgs made a point to keep the sensors from interfering with exhaust flow...as in to long of bungs which shielded the sensors from getting good sampling.
Over the years most exhaust mfgs have corrected this but some still aren't good enough to rely on in all rpm/tp/load areas.

I really try to stay out of your postings, but this one is wrong...  You have stated countless times that Narrow & Wide bands have the same bung requirements.  When in fact they do not.  My posting the Bosch LSU 4,2, Bosch makes it clear that the minimum deep of the bung is 13mm (1/2") OR LONGER; the Narrow Bands need thinners bungs so the sensor tip can get deeper into the exhaust pipe.

I've included a link were you said as much to Max... and despite me telling you that I run the Vance & Hinds Power Duels specifically the 2009 version made in 2009 with the LSU 4.2 WB, with what SC has stated over & over & over again has the BAD BUNGS.

I would strongly suggest that you or SC actually post the Specification Sheet for the Harley Davidson 18mm and 12mm oxygen sensors, because using the LSU 4.2 documentation is not working to prove your points. 

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,83618.msg938310.html#msg938310

P.S we are still awaiting glens and your data...

Would you please show me where in the Bosch document it states what you say above in red Give me the section number and Bosch text.

[q1svt]

Would you please show me where in the Bosch document it states what you say above in red Give me the section number and Bosch text.

It's there for all to read for themselves, Bosch has a very good table of content... but I would be happy to direct you right to it after you chose to share the data-specification non-public on the Harley Davidson Delphi 12mm sensor and bung.

Or just share the Delphi documentation numbers, then no hard searching or hosting would be required to find it

People years ago could have simply        GOOGLED    Y 258 K01 005-000e

BINGO, lists of many places to find the very allusive non-public information


edited to include picture... Bosch prints their documentation numbers on every page, top right corner making it very easy to share.

[whittlebeast]

The end of 9.9 

[rigidthumper]

According to that- minimum of 10.5mm unless >500C° is expected, then 13mm.