Picked this up yesterday.

[sandrooney]

Its either a 48 with a 49 motor or a 49 with a 48 front end. How can I tell for sure ? Got lots of parts with it as well. I will try and post more pics

[sandrooney]

here is another pic

[sandrooney]

One more

[jmb79]

Looks like the start of a nice winter project. 

[calif phil]

Nice score.   Congrats

[2CLK1]

its hard to see in the photo but it looks like the heads are not plumber intake type but oring style
which makes the later production, I don't remember when they changed?
Still looks like a good project.

[crazy joe]

Nice : )

[hardheaded]

its hard to see in the photo but it looks like the heads are not plumber intake type but oring style
which makes the later production, I don't remember when they changed?
Still looks like a good project.

either that are it's had weld in inserts installed. common mod.

[Leed]

Sweet! 

[Snuff™]

Beginning of a nice project.  I've recently started a '49 FL project for a friend.

[jmorton10]

its hard to see in the photo but it looks like the heads are not plumber intake type but oring style
which makes the later production, I don't remember when they changed?

Not sure what year they changed, but my 57 Pan was all stock when I bought it (about 100 tears ago) & it had O-rings.

~John

[Snuff™]

For pans, '48-'54 plumber head.
From the pics, maybe an early '52 frame?

[freddie_ray]

If you need information on old Harleys try Todd. He's on InstaGram and You Tube.

Freddie_Ray

[sandrooney]

Thanks for the help. I will have some fun with it this winter.

[N-gin]

Ooooh nice!

[freddie_ray]

Heck I should have given you more info. it's HuntingHarleys.

Freddie_Rat 

[Speeding Big Twin]

Kevin, good score. Judging by the combination of top engine mount and by what appear to be horn mounts on the front downtubes, the frame appears to be 49, 50 or 51. However, the toolbox mount appears to be a type that is usually accepted as beginning with 1952 models but I can't tell if that mount is original to the frame. A close-up of the toolbox mount may tell us more and so may close-up photos of the horn mounts.

One side of the steering head may have forging number XE-35F? Can you confirm please. The other side may have a forging hallmark and a die number. What's the die number?
Left axle clip may have forging number XE-7? R-H axle clip may have XE-6? What die numbers are on the axle clips?
Front engine mount may have forging number 48-621? What's the die number there?

Under the R-H side of the heads, possibly between the pushrod holes, you may find casting numbers and date codes. What are they?
Thick twelve-hole D-rings didn't start until mid/later-55 models but I can't tell if they're H-D or AM. If they're H-D they could even have been six-holers originally (very late 54 and early-55) that were later converted to twelve-hole. Any numbers on top of the D-rings?

Any markings at the base of the cylinders? If no date codes, look closely for an indented casting number.

Under the trans case you may find casting number 121-35. Is there a date code under there?
Starter cover has a fluid level plug so that indicates the cover is 78 or later if H-D. Or the cover could be AM.
If the trans lid is H-D then it's very late 51 or later. I can't see provision for a switch. If no provision for a switch then the lid would be somewhere from very late 51 to 58 inclusive if H-D. Any markings on the lid?

F/FL engine or E/EL? If F/FL there may be a 7 stamped on top of each case near the rear engine mounting bolts. For 1949 models, H-D used at least two different types of 7. Photos?
Is the letter P stamped at the end of the serial number (SN) boss? And how is the SN in general? For example, I'd expect the 4 to be a certain style with an open top but there are some AM open-top 4s out there. If you're not sure about the SN you could post a photo of part of it and cover a few sequence characters. Or I could send you some photos for comparison.   

Belly numbers for 1949 Pans usually start with 249, regardless of engine size, but recently I was told of three 1949 Pans having belly numbers beginning with 149 which would be unusual although no pictures were posted and I was unable to follow up on those three engines. Do yours start with 249 or 149? Photos?
Eric

[sandrooney]

WOW SBT Thanks for all that info.
Here is what I found.
The left side of the steering head does have forging number XE-35F and the right side has forging hallmark and the number 20. The left axle clip has the forging number XE-7 and the right has the forging number XE-6. The front engine mount has the forging number 48L or E - 621. Unfortunately the frame was powder coated and that's all the numbers I could find and read.
The front head says 1948 and looks like K8 the rear says 19482 and looks like L8.
On the base of the front of the rear cylinder looks like 10-6.
The trans case has the casting number 121-35 and no switch or number on the top cover. It had this stamped by the adjusting bolt hole (see pic).
The 4 in the serial number is open top and looks to be a certain style. The belly numbers match and do start with 249.
Hope all this helps to determine the year.
Thanks so much for the help.
SR

[sandrooney]

Tool box mount

[sandrooney]

Horn mounts

[sandrooney]

The D-Rings have the number 17509-54A stamped on them. Here is a pic of the trans top cover. Thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

Die number 20 on the steering head indicates a 1950 model frame according to Bruce Palmer's 37–64 second edition. The toolbox mount must have been added later because it looks like the 52–57 style.
 
Horn mounts look rounded on the corners and Palmer says that first happened with later-51 frames but your corners may have been rounded in preparation for powder coating. Two types of threaded holes in horn mounts and they may have told us something but it looks like yours have been filled.

Forging numbers on both axle clips are correct. With the powder coating the die numbers on the clips may be impossible to read but the left clip may have 13 or 14 while the R-H clip may have 8 or 9.

According to Palmer the forging number on the front engine mount for 1948–54 wishbone frames is 48-621 and he says this in the text on page 51 and in the chart on page 54. In the chart on page 55 he says 48E-621 was used for 1954–57 straight-leg frames but in the text on the same page (55) he says the number is 48-621 for 54–57 straight-legs. Below is a photo of a wishbone frame made in February 1953 and it has 48E-621. Then there's a forging hallmark and then die number 3:



Even though your frame is powder coated, can you read the die number on your front mount? It shouldn't be 3 though; instead it may be 2.

Casting number on the front head is probably 119 48 (the first 1 may be almost under the fin). Date code K8 indicates casting in 1948 in either November or October depending on whether or not the letter I was used.
Casting number on the rear head is probably 119 482. L8 indicates casting in 1948 in either December or November, again depending on whether or not the letter I was used. (Some Big Twin aluminium parts cast in 48 and 49 have M for December and that should mean that I was skipped. However, some of those same parts do indeed have the letter I and my research into this situation continues.)

If the rear cylinder has 10-6 then it may indicate casting in 1956 but that would normally be a 74ci cylinder because ELs weren't in general production after the 1952 model year. There should be a letter cast-in somewhere at the base and it may even be upside down. The letter indicates month of casting where A indicates January. For example, if you have A 10-6 then the cylinder was cast on January 10, 1956. For cast-iron parts such as cylinders there doesn't seem to be any confusion regarding the letter I and it seems that it was definitely skipped so J would indicate September, K indicates October, etc.

Casting number 121-35 on the trans is good but there should be a date code nearby. Depending on year the code may consist of a letter and a number or it may consist of numbers only.
If the trans lid has no provision for a switch then the lid is somewhere from very late 51 to 58 inclusive.
Characters stamped near the adjusting bolt hole are sometimes letters, sometimes numbers, and sometimes a combination of both. My best guess at this stage is that they were done by inspectors but I do not know for sure.

D-rings having 17509-54A on them is okay. It's a Harley part number and therefore it's unusual to see it on the part itself because normally a part number would only appear in the catalog and the part would have a different number on it.             

Open-top 4 in the SN sounds good, as do belly numbers starting with 249. I just tried to send you two photos for comparison but your inbox is full so I'll tune in again later on.
Eric

[sandrooney]

Eric, Thanks a lot for the time you took to put all this together it has been very helpful. I will check again on the front mount for the die number.
Thanks a lot,
Kevin

[BBQBIKER]

Nice score congrats!

[88b]

Nice

[Speeding Big Twin]

You're welcome, Kevin. I sent you a PM about some characters in the SN and BNs.
Eric

[iconicbikesrider]

Where in the world are you going to find this kind of thread?

A rare finding and so much info and knowledge about a bike over 50 years
I will follow this thread and pictures just to learn more...thank you guys.

[sandrooney]

Hi Eric,

I answered you PM but not sure they went through. Please let me know.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Received at least some of your PMs, Kevin, but my inbox was full just now so I cleared a few. If it looks like I've missed anything let me know.

It seems Palmer is indicating die number 20 on the frame steering head only appeared for 1950 model frames. Die number 19 there could indicate either 1950 or 1949, and die number 21 indicated either 1950 or 1951.
Die number 13 on your left axle clip is also consistent with 1950 only, according to Palmer. He says die number 12 there would indicate 1949 and die number 14 could indicate 1950, 1951 or 1952.
Die number 8 on your R-H axle clip indicates either 1950 or 1949.

So it appears your frame is more likely a 1950 model, judging mainly by die number 20 on the steering head and die number 13 on the left axle clip. However, according to Palmer the 1950 model frame is the same as the later-49 frame and the early-51 frame, apart from some of the die numbers being different.   

Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624. 

Not sure if you know or not but some 49 Pans had a springer as original and I'll soon email you more info about that, along with another couple of SN photos.
Eric

[FXGB]

Where in the world are you going to find this kind of thread?

Jockey Journal, hydra-glide.com, AMCA forum, others...

The Number 1 concern when buying old iron is restamped cases i.e. stolen.

http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/?g2_page=4
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck/vincheck

[Snuff™]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

[Speeding Big Twin]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

Snuff, I posted a photo on page 1 showing where the front mount die number may be located, although it was of a 3 and we're probably looking for a 2. 

But you're right about the powder coat and sometimes even the forging hallmark can be mistaken for a 0. Recently on H-G there was an example of that when a member there told us what he thought was an ID number on the front mount but I realised what it really was, judging by the number overall. It turned out to be the front half of a swingarm frame with a homemade hardtail attached.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

The Number 1 concern when buying old iron is restamped cases i.e. stolen.

http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/?g2_page=4

[/quote]

Restamped does not necessarily indicate stolen. In fact a certain and well-respected member of this forum has a restamped 49 Pan and there is no question whatsoever regarding the legality of his bike and the manner in which the renumbering was done. Search the Panhead board and you'll find it.

Regarding the link to VAM, some examples there of case numbers that appear to be non-factory stampings are not described as such. This was discussed on the CAImag forum recently but the outcome left much to be desired and I imagine the issue will be raised again there in the near future.

Over the years several people have contacted me after viewing examples on VAM and they tell me they are more confused then than they were before. And the reason is partly due to the lack of description. Even examples that are called bogus have no explanation as to why they are labelled in that manner.

This is part of the reason I sent Kevin three photos of 49 Pan SNs and one photo of a 49 Pan BN, all of which are consistent with factory stamping for that model year. And along with the photos I sent him details regarding certain characters they contained.
Eric

[Brrrap]

 

[FXGB]

99.99% of the time a restamped VIN is due to theft. The mythical "replacement dealer cases" would need to be 100% documented in order to to be legal. Short of that it's hot. caveat emptor.

[Snuff™]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

Snuff, I posted a photo on page 1 showing where the front mount die number may be located, although it was of a 3 and we're probably looking for a 2. 
...

Eric

Eric, Here's where I was describing out on the end (forging hallmark and die #)

[sandrooney]

I will take another look for the front die number. Thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

Snuff, thanks for the photo. Much appreciated. Is that the frame for the 49 you mentioned earlier? If so, does it have the other die numbers Palmer provides for a 49 model frame?
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

99.99% of the time a restamped VIN is due to theft. The mythical "replacement dealer cases" would need to be 100% documented in order to to be legal.

99.99% of the time? I'd like to see your 100% documentation proving that. Or would you only need 00.01% documentation to prove it? 

Mythical replacement dealer cases? Interesting term. But what does it mean?
1. Replacement cases via a dealer?
2. Cases via a replacement dealer?
3. Mythical cases, replacement or otherwise, via a dealer?
4. Cases via a mythical replacement dealer? 
Eric

[FXGB]

Have you ever seen a properly documented restamped pan with "dealer replacement cases"? Me neither... "Mythical".

Some guy on some internet forum saying he has a legal set... nah, ain't buying that. Seems to me the chatter around replacement cases is designed to validate the potential legitimacy of fake numbers; to create the possibility they may be ok so people can flip their hot junk to naive hipsters with deep pockets. Or to the overseas market, which will buy anything, hot or not.

Unless there's signed original paper from the dealership doing the stamping AND the original invoice from HD to the dealer for the blank cases, then it's fake/stolen. Guilty until proven innocent.

[Brrrap]

99.99% of the time? I'd like to see your 100% documentation proving that. Or would you only need 00.01% documentation to prove it? 

[JamLazyAss]

For what it's worth,

I bought a brand new 1977 Super Glide, back in 77.
It started leaking oil pretty bad.
Found out there was an oil hole drilled off location from the factory.

Syracuse Harley Davidson, ordered, stamped, and replaced my cases.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Have you ever seen ...

You don't know what I've seen. But I do. It's right here in my files. 

Tell you what I'd like to see and that is a positive discussion about a Panhead. That's what this thread was about for a while and I'm betting most people would like it to resume. 
Eric 

[Snuff™]

Kevin,

What's your plans for you bike?  Meaning, back to original, weekend rider, custom?...

...Tell you what I'd like to see and that is a positive discussion about a Panhead. That's what this thread was about for a while and I'm betting most people would like it to resume. 
Eric

Thank you Eric!

[sandrooney]

Snuff, For now I want to get it running for a weekend rider. It came with some oem parts and some aftermarket parts. I will use what I have for now and over the next couple years try and collect some more correct parts and when I retire I will try and make it more original. I really wanted a 58 or 59 but couldn't pass up the deal on this one. If I run into a 58 or 59 in my quest for parts that could change.
Thanks,
Kevin

[Brrrap]

Snuff, For now I want to get it running for a weekend rider. It came with some oem parts and some aftermarket parts. I will use what I have for now and over the next couple years try and collect some more correct parts and when I retire I will try and make it more original. I really wanted a 58 or 59 but couldn't pass up the deal on this one. If I run into a 58 or 59 in my quest for parts that could change.
Thanks,
Kevin

I'm curious Kevin, What is it in the first two years of the Duo-Glide that is the attraction?  Tiny numbers produced in both years of the FLH model; 1958 around 200 and '59 around 120. Much more of the FL models both years with about 1600 in '58 and about 1200 FL's in '59. would you also have a preference of the FL or FLH model? Once again, just curiosity on my part.

[sandrooney]

Don't know if I can be to picky but would prefer the sport solo model which I believe is the FL wouldn't care if it was hand or foot shift. I just like the way they look and also having the first year or two of a new model is kinda cool. 

[Brrrap]

 Both '58 and '59:
FL = Sport Solo, FLF = Sport solo with the foot shift, FLH = Super Sport Solo, FLHF = Super Sport Solo with the foot shift.
Good info can be found at: http://www.hydra-glide.com where I occasionally reference along with "Palmers Handbook".

[Snuff™]

 Kevin, Here's a pic of my '60 FLH, not a '58  or '59 but...

[CraigArizona85248]

I've actually seen a set of the mythical replacement cases first hand. They are in the museum at Buddy Stubbs HD in Phoenix. There are belly numbers but the number boss is blank.


-craig

[sandrooney]

Well Snuff I guess I could live with a 60. That is an awesome machine and just what I would be looking for. So I guess 58,59, or 60. Thanks

[Brrrap]

Kevin, Here's a pic of my '60 FLH, not a '58  or '59 but...

PORN!

[sandrooney]

Started it up today. Needs a new carb but sounded real good.  I was relieved to hear it run and sound so good. You never know when you by a basket case.

[sandrooney]

Getting er done

[sandrooney]

other side

[Brrrap]

Wow! Very Nice, I'm impressed!   

[Snuff™]

Kevin, what carb you going to switch to... S&S or CV? 

..or maybe a Linkert!!

[sandrooney]

Eventually a Linkert.