Picked this up yesterday.

[Speeding Big Twin]

You're welcome, Kevin. I sent you a PM about some characters in the SN and BNs.
Eric

[iconicbikesrider]

Where in the world are you going to find this kind of thread?

A rare finding and so much info and knowledge about a bike over 50 years
I will follow this thread and pictures just to learn more...thank you guys.

[sandrooney]

Hi Eric,

I answered you PM but not sure they went through. Please let me know.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Received at least some of your PMs, Kevin, but my inbox was full just now so I cleared a few. If it looks like I've missed anything let me know.

It seems Palmer is indicating die number 20 on the frame steering head only appeared for 1950 model frames. Die number 19 there could indicate either 1950 or 1949, and die number 21 indicated either 1950 or 1951.
Die number 13 on your left axle clip is also consistent with 1950 only, according to Palmer. He says die number 12 there would indicate 1949 and die number 14 could indicate 1950, 1951 or 1952.
Die number 8 on your R-H axle clip indicates either 1950 or 1949.

So it appears your frame is more likely a 1950 model, judging mainly by die number 20 on the steering head and die number 13 on the left axle clip. However, according to Palmer the 1950 model frame is the same as the later-49 frame and the early-51 frame, apart from some of the die numbers being different.   

Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624. 

Not sure if you know or not but some 49 Pans had a springer as original and I'll soon email you more info about that, along with another couple of SN photos.
Eric

[FXGB]

Where in the world are you going to find this kind of thread?

Jockey Journal, hydra-glide.com, AMCA forum, others...

The Number 1 concern when buying old iron is restamped cases i.e. stolen.

http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/?g2_page=4
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck/vincheck

[Snuff™]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

[Speeding Big Twin]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

Snuff, I posted a photo on page 1 showing where the front mount die number may be located, although it was of a 3 and we're probably looking for a 2. 

But you're right about the powder coat and sometimes even the forging hallmark can be mistaken for a 0. Recently on H-G there was an example of that when a member there told us what he thought was an ID number on the front mount but I realised what it really was, judging by the number overall. It turned out to be the front half of a swingarm frame with a homemade hardtail attached.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

The Number 1 concern when buying old iron is restamped cases i.e. stolen.

http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/v/Numbers/?g2_page=4

[/quote]

Restamped does not necessarily indicate stolen. In fact a certain and well-respected member of this forum has a restamped 49 Pan and there is no question whatsoever regarding the legality of his bike and the manner in which the renumbering was done. Search the Panhead board and you'll find it.

Regarding the link to VAM, some examples there of case numbers that appear to be non-factory stampings are not described as such. This was discussed on the CAImag forum recently but the outcome left much to be desired and I imagine the issue will be raised again there in the near future.

Over the years several people have contacted me after viewing examples on VAM and they tell me they are more confused then than they were before. And the reason is partly due to the lack of description. Even examples that are called bogus have no explanation as to why they are labelled in that manner.

This is part of the reason I sent Kevin three photos of 49 Pan SNs and one photo of a 49 Pan BN, all of which are consistent with factory stamping for that model year. And along with the photos I sent him details regarding certain characters they contained.
Eric

[Brrrap]

 

[FXGB]

99.99% of the time a restamped VIN is due to theft. The mythical "replacement dealer cases" would need to be 100% documented in order to to be legal. Short of that it's hot. caveat emptor.

[Snuff™]

...Did you find the die number on the front engine mount? Palmer says die number 2 could indicate either 1950 or 1949.
There should also be a die number on the back of the rear engine mount. Palmer says 6 for 1950 and 5 for 1949. Forging number should be XE-624...

That die # could be found on the front engine mount out on the end.  Might have been filled in with the powder coat though.

Snuff, I posted a photo on page 1 showing where the front mount die number may be located, although it was of a 3 and we're probably looking for a 2. 
...

Eric

Eric, Here's where I was describing out on the end (forging hallmark and die #)

[sandrooney]

I will take another look for the front die number. Thanks

[Speeding Big Twin]

Snuff, thanks for the photo. Much appreciated. Is that the frame for the 49 you mentioned earlier? If so, does it have the other die numbers Palmer provides for a 49 model frame?
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

99.99% of the time a restamped VIN is due to theft. The mythical "replacement dealer cases" would need to be 100% documented in order to to be legal.

99.99% of the time? I'd like to see your 100% documentation proving that. Or would you only need 00.01% documentation to prove it? 

Mythical replacement dealer cases? Interesting term. But what does it mean?
1. Replacement cases via a dealer?
2. Cases via a replacement dealer?
3. Mythical cases, replacement or otherwise, via a dealer?
4. Cases via a mythical replacement dealer? 
Eric

[FXGB]

Have you ever seen a properly documented restamped pan with "dealer replacement cases"? Me neither... "Mythical".

Some guy on some internet forum saying he has a legal set... nah, ain't buying that. Seems to me the chatter around replacement cases is designed to validate the potential legitimacy of fake numbers; to create the possibility they may be ok so people can flip their hot junk to naive hipsters with deep pockets. Or to the overseas market, which will buy anything, hot or not.

Unless there's signed original paper from the dealership doing the stamping AND the original invoice from HD to the dealer for the blank cases, then it's fake/stolen. Guilty until proven innocent.

[Brrrap]

99.99% of the time? I'd like to see your 100% documentation proving that. Or would you only need 00.01% documentation to prove it? 

[JamLazyAss]

For what it's worth,

I bought a brand new 1977 Super Glide, back in 77.
It started leaking oil pretty bad.
Found out there was an oil hole drilled off location from the factory.

Syracuse Harley Davidson, ordered, stamped, and replaced my cases.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Have you ever seen ...

You don't know what I've seen. But I do. It's right here in my files. 

Tell you what I'd like to see and that is a positive discussion about a Panhead. That's what this thread was about for a while and I'm betting most people would like it to resume. 
Eric 

[Snuff™]

Kevin,

What's your plans for you bike?  Meaning, back to original, weekend rider, custom?...

...Tell you what I'd like to see and that is a positive discussion about a Panhead. That's what this thread was about for a while and I'm betting most people would like it to resume. 
Eric

Thank you Eric!

[sandrooney]

Snuff, For now I want to get it running for a weekend rider. It came with some oem parts and some aftermarket parts. I will use what I have for now and over the next couple years try and collect some more correct parts and when I retire I will try and make it more original. I really wanted a 58 or 59 but couldn't pass up the deal on this one. If I run into a 58 or 59 in my quest for parts that could change.
Thanks,
Kevin

[Brrrap]

Snuff, For now I want to get it running for a weekend rider. It came with some oem parts and some aftermarket parts. I will use what I have for now and over the next couple years try and collect some more correct parts and when I retire I will try and make it more original. I really wanted a 58 or 59 but couldn't pass up the deal on this one. If I run into a 58 or 59 in my quest for parts that could change.
Thanks,
Kevin

I'm curious Kevin, What is it in the first two years of the Duo-Glide that is the attraction?  Tiny numbers produced in both years of the FLH model; 1958 around 200 and '59 around 120. Much more of the FL models both years with about 1600 in '58 and about 1200 FL's in '59. would you also have a preference of the FL or FLH model? Once again, just curiosity on my part.

[sandrooney]

Don't know if I can be to picky but would prefer the sport solo model which I believe is the FL wouldn't care if it was hand or foot shift. I just like the way they look and also having the first year or two of a new model is kinda cool. 

[Brrrap]

 Both '58 and '59:
FL = Sport Solo, FLF = Sport solo with the foot shift, FLH = Super Sport Solo, FLHF = Super Sport Solo with the foot shift.
Good info can be found at: http://www.hydra-glide.com where I occasionally reference along with "Palmers Handbook".

[Snuff™]

 Kevin, Here's a pic of my '60 FLH, not a '58  or '59 but...

[CraigArizona85248]

I've actually seen a set of the mythical replacement cases first hand. They are in the museum at Buddy Stubbs HD in Phoenix. There are belly numbers but the number boss is blank.


-craig