2000 Softail diagnosis help, please.

[Ken R]

I'm getting it back to continue.  Step one:  Pull the crankcase plug and see if it's still full of oil.   If it is, drain it and start the motor to see if it still vibrates.  Step two:  remove the cam chest cover and start inspecting things.  Pull the cams and oil pump.  Replace parts as necessary.  Check pinion run-out.  It has gear-drive cams, seems like excessive run-out would cause whining gears.  But I'll check anyway. 


Step 3:  Even though I don't believe that the primary can be involved with the symptoms, I'll check and adjust primary chain tension and look for issues.  When I changed the primary oil on Sunday, the old oil came out without any aluminum or other filings.  Looked just like all primary oil looks.


Ken

[Tsani]

Yup. Eliminate the easy stuff first.

[Ken R]

Yup. Eliminate the easy stuff first.

I already know that the top end is good from my compression test and then the leakdown test. 
If it goes beyond the cam case and primary and parts I can take off the block, I will throw up my hands.  I've never removed an engine or split the case; and don't want to, especially on someone else's motorcycle.  I'd worry about it forever. 

[Ken R]

OK.  I have the motorcycle back in my workshop on the lift table.   First, I checked the primary; mainly the primary chain tensioner.  It's in good shape and adjusted for about 5/8" slop at the top of the chain.  I rotated the engine and checked it in several places; all about the same slack.  There are no noises coming from the compensator when idling or under load.  I really don't think that the original problem is on the primary side because of the disappearance of 2 quarts of oil and then reappearance later, coincidental with the vibration problem. 


I've checked the engine mounting bolts.  All are tight.  I checked then for sumping by pulling the crankcase plug.  Caught about 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 fl oz of oil (measured in my graduated beaker that I use to do front fork oil measurements).  That seems about right to me.  But to be sure, I started the engine, warmed it up,  and ran it at varying speeds for about 2 minutes.  Pulled the plug again and found about 3 ounces more oil in the sump.  Normal, right?

No change in vibration.  It's been years since riding a softail, so I'm not sure how little r much it should vibrate.  But this appears to be too much.  (and she says that it is way too much; used to be silky smooth).

I guess it's time to take the exhaust and floorboard off and remove the cam cover.  There's one more test in the cam chest, hydraulic balance chain tensioner leakdown.   If that or pinion runout isn't excessive, then I'm afraid the diagnosis an repair is way beyond my experience level.   I really want to help her, her resources are limited and a dealership repair will probably cost a whole lot of money.  I think I've determined that it's not something that can be fixed from outside the crankcase. 

The motor runs exceptionally well.  No noises coming from anywhere that I can tell.  (the exhaust is pretty noisy, though).

I'll report back after the cam chest examination.   Any comments are appreciated.

Ken


 

[Don D]

The first of those twin cam B motors had a pump update because the oil would leak down without the wavy washer in the oil pump gears and positive pressure of the gears against the plate.

[Tsani]

The amount of earl in th ecase is about right.
It's hard to say wether the vibration is normal or not since this is the internet.
So external things to check:
The isolator bushings for the risers may be shot?
Loose motor mount bolts esp the top ones?
Rear wheel not lined up properly?
Loose exhaust system?
Wheel balance, truness etc?
Etc

[Ken R]

The amount of earl in th ecase is about right.
It's hard to say wether the vibration is normal or not since this is the internet.
So external things to check:
The isolator bushings for the risers may be shot?
Loose motor mount bolts esp the top ones?
Rear wheel not lined up properly?
Loose exhaust system?
Wheel balance, truness etc?
Etc

Thanks, and I appreciate the help.
I've videoed the vibration and will post it.  The vibration is all from the motor while the motorcycle is stationary.  It's a fairly high frequency vibration, maybe double or triple a wheel out of balance vibration. Varies with RPM while on the lift table.


Update:  No luck uploading the video.  I can put the URL in, but then it'll need to be downloaded into computers and played to be seen.


http://www.kenandjudy.us/TempPics/IMG_3227.MOV

Ken

[TXChop]

Vibes dont seem too bad but does look like it shakes a bit more than some B's i have worked on. From what i have seen strapped down on a lift can transfer more vibes too.
Idle seems low. Whats it running at 900ish?

[Ken R]

Vibes dont seem too bad but does look like it shakes a bit more than some B's i have worked on. From what i have seen strapped down on a lift can transfer more vibes too.
Idle seems low. Whats it running at 900ish?

Yeah, it's idling a little low.  But it's a carb and not totally warmed up yet for the picture. 
You can really feel the vibration in the seat when riding.  Also in the handlebars.  It changes with RPMs. 


Searching the forum, I saw where the balance sprocket has been known to slip on B engines.  I'm afraid that the source of the vibrations is going to be something like that or possibly one or both of the tensioners is failing.  If I can't find the culprit in the cam case, (and it's seeming more doubtful) then I'll have to admit defeat.


I still think the disappearance of the oil from the tank . . . and then reappearance has something to do with it.  She's foggy on the exact chronology, but she said it was running rough and power decreased while returning from a 300 mile trip.  They stopped at a station and filled the tank back to the line with 2 quarts of oil.  Then, vibrations the rest of the way home.   When I checked the oil (they trailered the motor here), it was running over the top. 






Ken

[Tsani]

I agree. That is a lot of shake for a softail.
I am also thinking the balancers.
If the flywheels sissors enought to cause that shake
then I don't think it would be running.

[jbexeter]

*not* a twinkie expert, just a time served engineer.

1/ if I close my eyes and listen to that video, it sounds like its got a regular miss on one cylinder, and one cylinder that fires good all the time... particularly towards the end of the video

2/ you can hear the engine "hunting"

3/ what would you have done / thought different if the bike was trailered into you and you were told "Hey man, I just bought this bike sight unseen from craigslist, never started it or run it, check it out for me will ya..."   
(as opposed to having the well poisoned by listening to what the customer says and possibly being fed a load of crap and deliberately not being told one or two crucial things)

will a broken balancer "potty mouth! " up the idle?

that's a 500 rpm shake, not a 900 rpm shake IMHO

see top line first, ***not*** a twinkie expert, not even close, sometimes it just helps if people throw "Potty mouth" at the wall and some of it sticks or triggers something else

[Ken R]

Didn't want to, but went ahead and pulled the cams, plate, oil pump, etc.  Interesting find.


1.  The pinion runout is a true as I've ever seen!  Maximum .001" (or .002" for a total revolution).  No wonder the gear drive cams sound so good. 
2.  Small metal and plastic parts came out of the oil pump.  I don't think that's good; except that it probably ends my work on the engine. 
I believe that the balance chain has either broken and is laying in the bottom of the crankcase; or the hydraulic chain tensioner(s) have broken.  The plastic parts look like they may be from the chain guide.  The steel parts look like part of a barrel of a chain link. 


I've never pulled a Harley engine and probably don't have the special tools to take one out and split the cases.  (used to do it all the time on Honda 350's and 450's because it was my job and I had good training; but that was back in 1969 - 1971).  I recommended that if she really loves the motorcycle (and she does . . . she tears up at the thought of it being broken), that either a factory rebuilt motor or a professional that can guarantee the work would be her two options.    Someone more experienced than me.    She tours a lot, thousands of miles a year.  She needs something reliable. 


There's an almost new 2014 Softail at the dealership on which she can begin building new life experiences if she can afford the purchase. 


Guess I'll put the cam chest back together.

[rigidthumper]

Ugh- clean all the parts, put it back together, and trade it in with the caveat "it has excessive vibration and I think something is wrong".  Lets the dealer make her a deal they can both live with, and full disclosure happened.

[Billy]

I would consider trading it also, 130k miles it could be just the beginning of things going wrong. If she can't afford to trade, a factory re-man engine may be her best option.

[Ken R]

I was  perplexed as to why 2 quarts of oil sumped; and then went back to normal (resulting in 2 quarts excess in the oil tank). 


I'm now theorizing that some of the parts got caught in the pump and separated the gerotors or got behind one of them.  This allowed the oil to drain from the tank and into the sump. It's the wavy spring that keeps the gerotors against the plates in the pump so that the oil cannot gravity flow down from the tank, through the pump, and into the sump. 


At some point, the plastic and steel parts I found worked their way out of the pump's spinning parts; allowing the gerotors to go back to their positions, held by the wavy spring.  No more sumping.


It's too bad that the pinion's bearing surface is scarred, it's such a perfect crank.  I cannot feel the visible light grooves with my fingernail edge.  Perhaps the cam plate can be replaced and it'll be ok. 


Ken 

[Tsani]

That is a shame. If it were mine, I would rebuild it and bump it up to a 95. With a factory reman, do they use your exisiting crank or fit one of those "good" new ones in? Whats a reman gonna cost her?

[sfmichael]

I would consider trading it also, 130k miles it could be just the beginning of things going wrong. If she can't afford to trade, a factory re-man engine may be her best option.

   

Factory reman's (long block) not too expensive..almost all new parts...a good warranty...and can be purchased as an 88", or a 95" for just a few hundred more. Pretty complete except cams. Need about a 30 day lead time and you keep your same engine # / vin.
About 4 grand if memory serves.

[Ken R]

If it was mine, I'd be pulling the motor and rebuilding it myself.  But I don't want to do that for someone else.
Harley rebuild is $3,750 plus the dealer charges to do the work. They probably charge $1K to $2K. Yes, new crank with non-Timken bearings goes into each reman if I'm reading it right. She'd lose her cams and gear drive, but would get the new chain and hydraulic tensioners, etc.

Her motorcycle would only bring about $6K if fixed.

[sfmichael]

If it was mine, I'd be pulling the motor and rebuilding it myself.  But I don't want to do that for someone else.
Harley rebuild is $3,750 plus the dealer charges to do the work. They probably charge $1K to $2K. Yes, new crank with non-Timken bearings goes into each reman if I'm reading it right. She'd lose her cams and gear drive, but would get the new chain and hydraulic tensioners, etc.

Her motorcycle would only bring about $6K if fixed.

Yep, tough choice. Or buy used, but no warranty and most good used about 2 grand. I think I'd rather have new (reman).
Pretty close on labor - prob about 1500 w/o dyno tune.
She could sell gear drive set-up and recoup a few $
Or trade it in...

[Karl H.]

I was  perplexed as to why 2 quarts of oil sumped; and then went back to normal (resulting in 2 quarts excess in the oil tank). 


I'm now theorizing that some of the parts got caught in the pump and separated the gerotors or got behind one of them.  This allowed the oil to drain from the tank and into the sump. It's the wavy spring that keeps the gerotors against the plates in the pump so that the oil cannot gravity flow down from the tank, through the pump, and into the sump. 

At some point, the plastic and steel parts I found worked their way out of the pump's spinning parts; allowing the gerotors to go back to their positions, held by the wavy spring.  No more sumping.

Ken

[Admiral Akbar]

I thought HD stopped doing remans. SnS did it for a while but that stopped also.

[Don D]

You now get new product from the moco, evos discontinued from the program

[Scooterfish]

I thought I heard HD is farming out the reman / rebuild engine program.   
Would you feel comfortable pulling / installing the engine if you can find a Indy to rebuild it.

If she is looking to trade perhaps finding a 2015 left over Heritage. The 2016 price dropped a $1000 so the factory is giving dealer incentives to move the 15s. I think Tomcat said you should be able to get $2500 off 2015 MSRP

[Admiral Akbar]

You now get new product from the moco, evos discontinued from the program

That's what I thought.. New motors.. Evos dead.

[calif phil]

Have her look for a low mileage used motor from a wrecked bike.   I bet she could buy a used motor for under 2 grand and spend $750 to install it.