2000 Softail diagnosis help, please.

[Ken R]

Have her look for a low mileage used motor from a wrecked bike.   I bet she could buy a used motor for under 2 grand and spend $750 to install it.

That's probably the best thing for her, considering her present financial condition.   
Can a motor be taken out and put back in with the jugs, heads, etc still on?  Or does it have to be just a short block?


Ken

[Tsani]

Have her look for a low mileage used motor from a wrecked bike.   I bet she could buy a used motor for under 2 grand and spend $750 to install it.

Now this is a good idea.

You may be able to get a motor in and out complete but it would be easier on your back to do it with the top off. Rear jug may give you the toughest time. close to the top frame rail. Your best bet would be to remove the heads. Minimal gasket replacement.

[04 SE Deuce]

The service manual says you can swing em in/out complete but they have you unbolting and removing the primary, transmission, oil tank, seat post with coil intact and various other things.  There has to be a way without removing all that stuff...if that meant removing some or part of the top end I think I'd go that route.  -Rick

[Snowyone]

Ya the book says to remove powertrain as a unit.  I have done a couple recently and just removed the top end so all I was lifting was the lower end; supported the tranny and removed the primary.  Makes it liftable for my old back.  I think it was Max that showed a picture of a lifting bracket that bolts to the head vent holes and allows you to use an engine hoist to lift it out.  Very cool idea that I'll use the next time.  I also unscrewed the cylinder studs which gave lots of room and prevented me from bending one(which has happened to me)

[04 SE Deuce]

To repeat my service manual says to remove oil tank, seat post, primary, trans etc. then the complete engine. FWIW  -Rick

[Admiral Akbar]

Ya the book says to remove powertrain as a unit.  I have done a couple recently and just removed the top end so all I was lifting was the lower end; supported the tranny and removed the primary.  Makes it liftable for my old back.  I think it was Max that showed a picture of a lifting bracket that bolts to the head vent holes and allows you to use an engine hoist to lift it out.  Very cool idea that I'll use the next time.  I also unscrewed the cylinder studs which gave lots of room and prevented me from bending one(which has happened to me)

I've RnRed the complete motor on an FXR and Dyna using a triangular plate attached to the head breather and a motor hoist.. Works real well..Saves the back.  Not done a TC softail.. Evo softails are pretty easy tho..

[Ken R]

I'm almost tempted to take on the balancer replacement myself.  Have been browsing the shop manual.  It really doesn't look any more intricate than rebuilding 5 and 6 speed transmissions with new innards (which I've done), rebuilding primaries, (which I've done often) or complete top end jobs (which I've done a couple of times).  I've done cams (he old style, gear drive, and the new hydraulic tensioner style) several times.   


Right off hand, are there any special tools needed to split the cases?  I'm thinking that the crank would just stay in the left hand side; removing only the right side case halve.  I'd remove and flush out the oil tank, of course, and clean out all the passages. 


The crank has no more than .0015" runout, I wouldn't need to remove it from the left side, would I?


When I've done top ends, I was most comfortable with a machine shop supplying jugs, rings, and pistons; assembled so that all I need to do is attach the connecting rods and push them home. That's what Bill Bishop did for me . . . . jugs, rings, and pistons assembled so I didn't have to size parts or gap rings. 


With that experience,  would one consider a person competent to remove the engine and split the cases and having confidence in the reliability?  Are there any gotchas?

[Tsani]

I almost did it last winter. I wouldn't really hesitate to take it on. As to special tools "needed", don't know.   

[1FSTRK]

Ken I have been watching this thread from the first day along with most of the other threads you have started and I see no reason that you would not be able to take care of this project yourself. I have thought of suggesting it more than once while others were posting their thoughts. You may need a couple of tools but you have the shop and ability to make a couple of them yourself.
I say go for it. Anything you run into will be supported by the great members here be it tools or info.
It would be a great finish to this thread as well.

[-deuced-]

Ken I have been watching this thread from the first day along with most of the other threads you have started and I see no reason that you would not be able to take care of this project yourself. I have thought of suggesting it more than once while others were posting their thoughts. You may need a couple of tools but you have the shop and ability to make a couple of them yourself.
I say go for it. Anything you run into will be supported by the great members here be it tools or info.
It would be a great finish to this thread as well.

 
I have complete faith in your ability and I'm thinking the owner does as well, that's why she took it to you. Myself, I haven't been that far in but I'd go for it. Remove the heads and cylinders, then remove the bottom end from the frame. Leave the crank in the LHS case? Take the RHS case off and decide from there. Special tools, isn't there a "for rent" thread somewhere? I think you can even upgrade the counterbalancer components from 2000 specs. I'm a bit iffy on the high mileage. Might be good for another 50,000 with just a chain guide and some gaskets.

I'm looking forward to the pictorial 

[-deuced-]

Quick search on counterbalancer upgrade. Seems the early ones were the upgrade -

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,85148.msg959460.html#msg959460
Reply #2

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,32722.msg333117.html#msg333117

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,35241.msg365925.html#msg365925
Reply #10


edit: highlighting

[04 SE Deuce]

I don't think the later style balancer components are necessarily an upgrade.  More about ease of assembly and a weight change for lighter pistons in the 4.375 stroke engines.  Most guys that want lighter balancers just turn/trim some off the early/original counterweights.  Somebody posted in a thread here recently that they had seen more failures with late style than the early.  You will need bearings,  sprockets,  chain,  guides,   tensioners etc.  so maybe compare cost between early and late style.  I'd leave the original set-up.  -Rick

[04 SE Deuce]

The 07 up softtail are less desirable setup in my opinion. I have seen a couple bikes have issues with the counterbalancer and bearing at under 50k. On the 06 down it was a ball bearing, but 07 up its a roller and the balancers have started wearing  like a ipb race. Best heads up is a prominent whine.

FWIW, here's the post I remembered.  -Rick

[Ken R]

Decided to keep this thread going for those that don't get to see almost total Twin Cam tear-down.  Also for professionals that might see something that I'm unaware of that needs attention or might need to advise.  We have some of the best Harley wrenches and ICE theory gurus on the planet on this forum. 


Today, Sandy asked me to go ahead and do the rebuild.  It's an 88 cu in.  We're going to upsize it to 96 cu in.  Also will have the heads rejuvenated to be as good as new.  They DO have 135,000 miles on them.  I've been talking to Tom at AMS in Ft Worth and will ask him and Eric do the jugs and heads machine work.


Going to take out the TW-44G cams that someone installed for her since they don't match her riding style and for which the engine's stock compression is too  low for 44's anyway.  Going with a set of TW-26G cams. 
The gears are good and the 360-degree pinion runout is only .002".  The gear drive has served her well for 70,000 miles and should for the duration, I think.  Of course, it's going to need a new cam plate,  oil  pump, and lifters.
ShSShe has a complete Cometic gasket kit that she bought years ago; but unfortunately, the head gaskets are for a stock "88" bore.  So she'll need to buy a new set of head gaskets.  Everything else should work.


So I'm documenting my progress with pictures.  Started today at around 3 PM.  By tomorrow afternoon, I expect to have the engine out of the frame.  I'm bagging and labeling parts/nuts and bolts and taking pictures because I don't know how long it will take for her to buy the needed parts and I may forget exactly where some go.   I'm anxious to see what's broken inside the engine cases. 


A couple of observations: 
It sure is easy to get to the rocker cover bolts and all those underneath with the square tubing for the backbone of the frame instead of the wide pressed and welded steel frame.  I was expecting the usual struggle with the bolts, rockers, rocker plate, etc. 
On the other hand, I wasn't expecting 12-point half-inch head bolts.  My 1/4-inch drive 12-point socket is not the right set of tools for their removal.  Off to Sears tomorrow for a quarter or half-inch drive 12-point socket.
Bolt missing from the intake manifold flange.  I went  to loosen it . . . and it wasn't there!  I cannot imagine that there wouldn't be an intake  leak.  Also, the clear plastic vacuum tube that connects to the carb for the petcock was cracked as well.  By default, all this stuff will be fixed when it goes back together.  I've been this deep into a TC-88 engine before.  Tomorrow, I'll be breaking new ground. 


So far, so good.  The cams are out,  but I put the cam cover back on while she decided whether or not to ask me to rebuild.  By the way, she told me today that the motorcycle has a name, "Roxanne". 

[Phat Black]

Ken,  thank you for keeping the thread going.   I own a 2010 FLSTFB.   So I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress.    I agree with you on this forum having some of the best wrenches and ICE theory gurus on the planet.   Cheers HTT!!

[Admiral Akbar]

Since the motor is going from 88 to 96, I'd keep the 44s.. Good cam if you get the compression up above say 9.8 (works real well at 10.2).. Heritage staggered duals with after market mufflers will provide a nice power band. Especially if all you do is rebuild the heads.. Porting, you can go to a lesser cam.. Either case you will need to add an ignition module if you don't already have one..

[1FSTRK]

Ken glad to see you are going to take this on. No doubt it will turn out good for both of you. I will be looking forward to your posts as I do all your detailed threads on any subject here.

As for the cam change in 1999-2000 when Vic designed the cam that Andrews used as the basis for their 44G it was intended for and exactly what you are doing. It worked great with 10.2-10.4 in 88" engines and would make good tq in 95" kits with flat top pistons and 170 ccp. You should definitely consider saving the cam money and spending it on the ignition as suggested above.

[calif phil]

You could probably find a set of '06 and up late model takeoff heads for less than you can get the stock heads freshened up.   Add a .030 Cometic head gasket to the mix. 

[Ken R]

Thank you both for advice on the cams.  It would save about $250 to not change the cams. 
But aren't the '44 cams designed for best torque curve in the higher RPM range?  She's a tourer; probably seldom winds it out over 5,000 RPM.  Also, Tom at AMS recommends cc'ing the heads and doing work to get the compression up to where the TWG-44 cams like; in addition to 96 big bore.   That costs more  money than a set of 26's; especially if we can sell the '44s to recover part of the expense.  I don't want her to have kick-back and other issues associated with higher compression.   
My thought is that the 26G cams will better match her riding habits and won't require any head modifications.    I think that she'll see a favorable difference with cams that match her riding style and habits. 
I know that the choice between the two camsets have been discussed many times over the 12 years I've been on this forum. 

[Ken R]

You could probably find a set of '06 and up late model takeoff heads for less than you can get the stock heads freshened up.   Add a .030 Cometic head gasket to the mix.

She actually has another set of heads (with 88 jugs, pistons, and rings) that she bought several years ago.  I wonder how I could tell if they're 06 or later.  Is the number cast into the head different?  I also have a set of jugs and heads that someone gave me a few years ago.  Maybe they're 06 or later.  They look rather fresh.


Ken

[Hossamania]

I'm surprised the cracked vacuum petcock line or missing bolt didn't cause running around issues.

[Admiral Akbar]

You could probably find a set of '06 and up late model takeoff heads for less than you can get the stock heads freshened up.   Add a .030 Cometic head gasket to the mix.

She actually has another set of heads (with 88 jugs, pistons, and rings) that she bought several years ago.  I wonder how I could tell if they're 06 or later.  Is the number cast into the head different?  I also have a set of jugs and heads that someone gave me a few years ago.  Maybe they're 06 or later.  They look rather fresh.


Ken

First the heads will have beehive springs.. Second the bolt for the intake manifold bolt holes are centered on the ports for 06-up heads.. There are casting numbers on the heads but I don't know what is correct.. It won't be a -99 -00 casting number tho.. If upping to later heads, you might want to reduce the cam..

The exhaust pipe make a greater difference than a few degrees of cam duration.. How did it run before you took it apart?  The additional displacement and compression will help down low, if you don't change anything else.. You can set the CCP the same as the 26 build and have less issues with starting than the 26..

[Ken R]

I'm surprised the cracked vacuum petcock line or missing bolt didn't cause running around issues.

Maybe that's what caused the loping at idle that made it sound like an EVO at 500 RPM.  Someone commented on the idle in the video I posted. 

[Bagger]

Contact PanHeadRed to see if he has a set of his gear drive cams available. 

Syke Performance SP232 Cam

14 I/O
37. I/C
42. E/O
17 E/C
231 I/Duration
239 E/Duration
31 Overlap
102 Intake Lobe Center
103 Exhaust Lobe Center
102 Lobe Separation Angle
0.561 I/LIFT
0.561 E/LIFT         

[dakota224]

Just Fix whats wrong & ride..