Ultima 120" motor noises

[lilchief]

Jireh has or had a website to order from. I haven't been on there in awhile because I've not had any problems with my Evo, & really haven't done anything to it in the last few years, except ride it. I'm with Gryphon on this one, I dont think the Ultimas are junk, but it does sound like you have a lifter that's not staying pumped up or a pushrod that's simply not adjusted right. Ultima has come a long way since their beginning, & I wouldn't fall into the internet hype of people bashing them. It sounds to me that some of the blame should be on the shop that installed the motor since they let it go out the door like that. I think it took me a total of 3 days to pull my stock motor, install the Ultima, & have it up & running. It shouldn't have taken that shop that long to install the motor & dial in the carb.
Lil Chief

[mattdrag]

i had bad lifter noise in my 113' ultima and after removing lifters, pushrods, and rocker boxes--found nothing. replaced lifters with S&S and its all good again. thats with 10,000 miles. g

[pumpguy68]

I believe ultima uses crane lifters. IIRC they are the same as the HD C lifters.

Even the best companies have issues with a percentage of their products.
If you make thousands of the thing and only check 1 in a 100 you will have failures.
(No big company can check 100% of their product) to much time and $.

I have a 113" ultima that has 35k on it and I would not hesitate to ride it across country.
My 120" is mostly a stock ultima motor and I am surprised by how smooth and quiet it is for a big inch motor.

I still believe the issue with your motor is minor and for less than $200 you can fix it JMHO.

RAY M

[Xanadu]

Since the motor sounds fine upon start up, I would not expect to find anything by opening up the pushrods, lifters, etc.  its when the thing gets hot the tapping is very pronounced.

taking it to another shop on Friday, will get his opinion.  If there is no damage to the components then I think for probably 500.00 I can get new lifters and get them installed too at another shop. 

I will continue to try to contact Ultima or Jireh looking for information.

The story of the pushrod going through the rocker, I will try to get more information from my friend.. maybe get some photos if I can and post them here if I am successful.

I will have an update on friday.

I will keep you posted.

[pumpguy68]

Thanks I for one would really like to see these pictures if you can get them.

Ray m

[Evo160K]

Midwest Motorcycle Supply

U.S.A. Toll Free 1-800-325-3914 . Local & International 636-931-3200 .

[apendejo]

This is what caused the tapping noise on my 'cuz 1000 mile old El Bruto 120". Chunks of piston the size of dimes welded to the lower skirt of cylinder.[attach=0] [attach=1]

[pumpguy68]

That sucks. I would think that would make a different noise than the valve train and the vibration should have been horrible.

Was the engine assembled by them?
When did he buy it(month/year)

Ray m

[apendejo]

The motor was an El Bruto bought completely assembled, with carb and electronic module.
Bought July '06. Was gonna ride the bike to Sturgis from Topeka, but it did that 2 days before the ride.
It sounded exactly like a bad lifter on the front cylinder. We tore it down and found that.
I think it was Jireh or Midwest that he got the motor from.
He called them and they sent him new barrels, pistons/rings and gaskets at no charge.
Motor has been reassembled and is still sitting in the original crate for going on 9 years now.

[Xanadu]

when you say sitting in the original crate for 9 years now, what does that mean?   Motor has not been used ?  sitting in a box?  if so , what did the owner replace the motor with?

Or does it mean, been in the bike since 06 and been running fine??

[pumpguy68]

Thanks for the info.

I thought from what I could see that it was a Ross piston and not a Mahle.

They did have issues with the Pistons up to around 2008.

Haven't heard any bad results from the mahle pistons.

Thanks again

Ray m

[Xanadu]

Ok, here is the update some of you may have been waiting for...

Took the bike to another shop today,  it was a long ride and I made sure the tapping noise was in full crescendo when I arrived... The owner and son were working in the shop area of the facility with the garage door open and they were outside.  came over and told me the motor sounded horrible... I shut it down.. they asked if I was the guy who called with the ultima 120 with 1600 miles on it.. I said, "you could hear me coming , couldnt you..."  ha ha...

they started it again... elder owner seemed to think it was crank bearings... but younger owner thought valve train.  In 15 min they came out with this slick plier like tool that they hooked onto the pushrods and squeezed and it released this pushrod clip and allowed access to the adjustable pushrods.  they pulled them all.  That tool looked so slick!!  rear cylinder was so tight you couldn't spin it in your fingers, and the fronts were very loose with a lot of wiggle in them.  I told them the motor sounded fine when it was new, no tapping sounds, etc. 

Their diagnosis... a possible lifter issue, or the pushrods were not adjusted properly.  (since the motor sounded fine for over 1000 miles, I have to discount the pushrod adjustment theory).

They recommended I not ride the bike.  This was a built motor by midwest and came with carb (which didnt work right) and ignition as a completely assembled motor.  The shop that installed the motor did not go into the motor and have not opened it up to check pushrod adjustment.  That shop wanted midwest to give them authorization to do that... at midwest expense.  What good is that kind of warranty??

The new shop is going to contact Ultima see if there is anything they will do concerning this....  I told the guys there I did not want ultima lifters...  I wanted the feulings or a known brand name.

they agreed.

We talked a long time,  I get the feeling these guys have been though all this before with these ultima motors and other shops in the valley..

What they had to say about ultima, nobody with one wants to hear.  the long story short is... they felt the ultima was not a long term solution for bike longevity.
they estimated a $350.00 bill for them to work on the bike, not counting anything I can get from Ultima.

I don't want to take the bike back to the original shop who offered me the one year warranty... what good is that when the owner just says "its normal high cam noises" and wont even open up the lifter covers to take a look...  this shop didn't charge me anything to at least look at the pushrods.  They are adjustable and the nuts on them are tight.

They also commented the V&H pro pipe recommended by the last shop was not a good choice for this big inch motor..  but I would like to see what the dyno says.  I may have a slightly used pro pipe I need to get rid of...

[Xanadu]

pumpguy,

I am still trying to get photos of the supposed pushrod wearing a hole in the rocker arm at just under 5000 miles....  my contact told me the motor was in the shop, but knowing this owner he would want the broken parts.  if they are available he said he would get some photos..

[pumpguy68]

Cool thanks I'm glad you got someone to look at your motor before it broke on you.

It would suck to have ruined a motor because of a lifter that went bad.

I'm running S&S lifters in my motor and I think I have one that is going south at 3k so I guess it can happen to any brand these days.

Ray m

[Xanadu]

I have used S&S lifters in the past, had one fail, it cost me 1200.00 to have fixed, took out cam, lifters pushrods.  they replaced them with feulings, got 22K miles out of those then glitter, silver and gold shows up in my oil filter, and hence the ultima motor fiasco..

I wont use S&S lifters again based on my experience.

new shop did not recommend me riding the bike and coming back later when I had a ride home.. so had to spend my friday, golden precious vacation day sitting in his shop waiting for a ride...  took all day.

sucks!!

[pumpguy68]

That does suck!!

I have S&S lifters in both my other motors (the 113" and the 85") one set has 40k the other about 25k no issues.

Like a stated in a earlier post you can get a bad part no matter who's name is on it.

Ray m

[gryphon]

So the new shop did not think that a 120 was the right choice for a long lived motor. That's not much of a surprise. Cubic inches and torque come at a price. Name of the game. Your other shop could have fixed your problem in an afternoon while you waited at the tavern. Considering the premium he charged you for the motor he should have provided you with service and not excuses.

[lilchief]

If the lifters were in their lowest position in their bores, the pushrods will spin. Once a lifter starts to rise in the bore, you shouldn't be able to spin that pushrod. If the fronts were wiggling around, as in you can move it up & down & side to side, especially if that lifter is up in its bore, then there is too much lash in them and they need to be adjusted. Hopefully this new shop will try adjusting the pushrods first,  before just tossing parts at it. That shouldn't be a $350 job.  Actually, I don't even think a lifter swap should cost $350 in labor.

Lil Chief

[lilchief]

Agree again with Gryphon.  Power comes at a price. If my 113" was in my everyday rider, I would expect to have issues with it here & there, mainly because it's hard to stay out of the throttle when you got a motor like that.

Lil Chief

[apendejo]

when you say sitting in the original crate for 9 years now, what does that mean?   Motor has not been used ?  sitting in a box?  if so , what did the owner replace the motor with?

Or does it mean, been in the bike since 06 and been running fine??

Means the motor was NOT put back in the bike and has been a conversation piece....

[pumpguy68]

  with chief it's hard not to twist the wick when you're sitting on that kind of power.
I put my 120 in my bagger for two up ridding loaded down (extra torque for pulling moutain passes and highway passing) thinking that I wouldn't be racing around HA HA.

It's just to much fun messing with sports cars and guys with stock CVOs that think they are fast  

Ray m

[gryphon]

Xanadu, always remember to take shop recomendations with a grain of salt when it comes to brand preference. It's easy to feel like you've gotten an inferior motor when things aren't going well. It's a shame that the first shop did not live up to expectations and most of the problems you have revolve around their reluctance to address your issues. That, plus the fact that they took months to perform a task that should have taken a couple of days has contributed greatly to the disapointment you're experiencing. Once that ball has begun rolling it's easy to accept the negative information provided by others. Perhaps also a 120ci motor was not the best recommendation the first shop could have provided you with given you're relative inexperience to working on these motors. With experience a poor lifter can be replaced in the morning with enough time left for a great afternoon ride. Once dialed in I think you will find that, based on my own experience at least, the 120's are a fun and reliable motor. Will it outlive a stock EVO motor putting out half the torque and HP, no probably not. but they are a hoot and with a little TLC should provide you with many thousands of miles of great memories.

[pumpguy68]

  and very well said gryphon.

Ray m

[Schex3x]

Xanadu, glad you found someone that seems willing to try any remedy the noises.

See if they can also look into why the oil temps are so high.

[Xanadu]

All,

the new shop was not favorable on the ultima brand name, not the 120" or bigger motor situation.  I just want to make that clear.  it was a brand issue,  he stated the ultima was 1/2 tick above a Revtech motor... made for choppers to be ridden once a month then to sit in a garage... 

That was his comment... 

The new shop had a dyno.  so I want a dyno tuning as well once the pushrod situation is resolved.  New shop will attempt to deal with Ultima.  The cost of 350.00 includes new feulings lifters.  I suspect the situation is lifter.  the pushrod nuts where you adjust them were tight.  I stood there while the fellow used some plier tool to pull off the pushrod keepers and slid the tubes up and moved the front pushrods around , lots of movement side to side..  rears were so tight they would not turn.  they rocked the bike in gear a tad... they did not do any measurements of pistons in the cylinders to make sure it is was TDC or anything like you might do if you were adjusting the pushrods.

I told the new shop the motor runs so hot you cant ride it in the summer here... he commented you should be able to ride it in summer.  told me timing probably needs adjusting, and I told him I am getting 28 mpg, he said you should get 35 with that motor.

Im very disappointed with my first shop, the second shop had the pushrod keepers off in 5 minutes and accessed the situation in 15 min...  why the first shop wouldnt do that?  they just told me the 640 cam makes a lot of noise...

well , that warranty from the first shop is worthless.  so lick my wounds and move on.  maybe the second shop will give me better treatment.?

the second shop also felt the pro pipe was not a good choice for this motor, contrary to the first shop recommendation.  great... I just bought that pro pipe too.  he wanted my old pipes back to take a look at them...

I asked to see numbers on the dyno between the pipes, so maybe that will happen..?

I dont know..

New shop thought next Sat I could get the bike back all fixed...  we will see.

he was pretty adamant the ultima motor was not a long term solution..

I have the HD 80" motor in the ultima box.. glad I didnt dispose of that.. looks like I may have to find someone to rebuild that motor...