ok...I got the rear shocks handled...what upgrade for the front now?

[04 SE Deuce]

One thing to note.. Rebound damping on an 08 fairing bike is different than a deuce.. The rebound hole is smaller and fork oil determines rebound damping.. Unless you drill out the rebound hole on your forks and heavier oil, you should use less slow speed orifice and a little more pressure on the high speed valve spring.. I wouldn't drill out the rebound damping hole.. Best to use the lightest viscosity oil possible..

Since you mentioned Deuce,  which means you are referencing my reply/post,  I'll explain further.  May also need to explain why you edited my post.

-  Nobody suggested drilling out the rebound hole in the damper,  read again if necessary. 

-  I typically suggest lighter weight oil for late model baggers than I run in the Deuce but I don't necessarily agree with running lighter oil than stock with a stiffer set of springs unless other mods are done to retain rebound damping.  15wt. is what RT recommends which IMO is a good starting point,  I believe if you check RT does not use 10wt. or less in this app.  Harley type E that is spec'd for Harley Touring models is approx. 12-15wt compared to most brands,  at least that is what viscosity charts from Spectro, Bel-Ray and Red Line show Harley Type E as.  Some of this is in the FAQ section here on HTT.  Point is if you run lighter than stock type E oil rebound damping is less, combine this with the fact that stiffer springs require slightly more rebound damping for same control. 

-  In reference to what is highlighted in red:  Ideally an increase in valve spring rate with the same preload/opening pressure is needed to get similar compression damping with a lighter oil as compared to a higher viscosity oil.  You still want the valve open/crossover pressure close to the same to maintain bump absorption which is controlled by emulator spring preload pressure.  Increasing the spring rate with lighter oil will give a similar compression damping curve.  Lighter oil flows more volume which the stiffer spring accounts for by not opening as far or as fast.  Increased flow through the slow speed orifices by lighter oil or by increasing the number of holes has minimal effect on med-high speed damping which the stiffer valve spring and or 1/2 turn of preload will help counter.

Nobody is cutting track laps on these baggers/cruisers so closing orifices to use lighter oil isn't required IMO.  -Rick

[Admiral Akbar]

  May also need to explain why you edited my post.

Derogatory stuff removed.. Has no value here..

[Admiral Akbar]

One thing to note.. Rebound damping on an 08 fairing bike is different than a deuce.. The rebound hole is smaller and fork oil determines rebound damping.. Unless you drill out the rebound hole on your forks and heavier oil, you should use less slow speed orifice and a little more pressure on the high speed valve spring.. I wouldn't drill out the rebound damping hole.. Best to use the lightest viscosity oil possible..

Since you mentioned Deuce,  which means you are referencing my reply/post,  I'll explain further.  May also need to explain why you edited my post.

-  Nobody suggested drilling out the rebound hole in the damper,  read again if necessary. 

I did.

-  I typically suggest lighter weight oil for late model baggers than I run in the Deuce but I don't necessarily agree with running lighter oil than stock with a stiffer set of springs unless other mods are done to retain rebound damping.  15wt. is what RT recommends which IMO is a good starting point,  I believe if you check RT does not use 10wt. or less in this app.  Harley type E that is spec'd for Harley Touring models is approx. 12-15wt compared to most brands,  at least that is what viscosity charts from Spectro, Bel-Ray and Red Line show Harley Type E as.  Some of this is in the FAQ section here on HTT.  Point is if you run lighter than stock type E oil rebound damping is less, combine this with the fact that stiffer springs require slightly more rebound damping for same control. 

But rebound damping changed when the fairing bikes got HD emulators.. They had to as the HD emulator has smaller orifices on the compression side..

-  In reference to what is highlighted in red:  Ideally an increase in valve spring rate with the same preload/opening pressure is needed to get similar compression damping with a lighter oil as compared to a higher viscosity oil.  You still want the valve open/crossover pressure close to the same to maintain bump absorption which is controlled by emulator spring preload pressure.  Increasing the spring rate with lighter oil will give a similar compression damping curve.  Lighter oil flows more volume which the stiffer spring accounts for by not opening as far or as fast.  Increased flow through the slow speed orifices by lighter oil or by increasing the number of holes has minimal effect on med-high speed damping which the stiffer valve spring and or 1/2 turn of preload will help counter.

Nobody is cutting track laps on these baggers/cruisers so closing orifices to use lighter oil isn't required IMO.  -Rick

Number of holes, oil viscosity and seat pressure on the spring set the cross over point from low speed to high speed..

[Scooter_trash_1]

 Ray, My bike is an 09.. The shimstack in the Intiminators is not the factory set.. I mentioned that a guy that goes by fabri8tor on HD forums setup the shim pak for my application, not sure thats all he did.. I do run the 5wt syn oil and love the setup.. He recommended the oil to me as well.. Dang, does everything on here have to be a pissing match? 

[04 SE Deuce]

Ray, My bike is an 09.. The shimstack in the emulators is not the factory set.. I mentioned that a guy that goes by fabri8tor on HD forums setup the shim pak for my application, not sure thats all he did.. I do run the 5wt syn oil and love the setup.. He recommended the oil to me as well.. Dang, does everything on here have to be a pissing match? 

You mention shim stack,  emulators don't have a shim stack.  Has one been added?

[jmorton10]

Ray I put Progressive Mono Tubes in my 08 FLHX last year HUGE improvement over stock. I'm sure there are better upgrades out there but for the money spent I'm impressed.

I agree 100%.

In my 04 RK I tried every combination of springs/dampers/fork oil etc.  I must have had the forks apart 10 times. I have short legs & needed to lower it without it riding like a lumber wagon.  I did finally get it exactly how I wanted it, but I have no idea what is in there now LOL.

When I got my 07 RK, there was no way I was going through all that again & decided to give the Progressive monotubes a shot.  I got a fantastic deal pricewise (spending $2000 or more was not an option for me, I got the monos for around $200) on a 1 or 2 inch lowered set & figured if I hated them it was no big deal.

I threw them in with a few ounces of oil (that never needs to be changed), lowered the fork 2 inches, put it back together & haven't touched it since.  I can't believe what a difference it made, no more fork dive on braking, sticks to the road like glue & handles like its on rails.

Are there better option??  No doubt, but I am 100% happy with it now & don't plan to change anything. I like that there is zero maintenance required & if they wear out in 40,000 miles I will throw them out & put in a new set.

~John

[04 SE Deuce]

Number of holes, oil viscosity and seat pressure on the spring set the cross over point from low speed to high speed..

Correct and stating the obvious.  My point was you would have to increase the emulator spring rate to get the same damping curve (med/high speed when the spring is in play) with a lighter oil as compared to a heavier oil,  especially of your intend was not to change the crossover point/pressure.

But rebound damping changed when the fairing bikes got HD emulators.. They had to as the HD emulator has smaller orifices on the compression side..

Totally aware of that as we have discussed in the past,  have the rebound holes sizes written down,  just not sure I agree with running less rebound damping than stock with stiffer springs,  stock being as they come with type E oil.  Feel is personal taste though.  Traxxion closes the rebound hole in order to run lighter oil.

[boooby1744]

Ray, My bike is an 09.. The shimstack in the emulators is not the factory set.. I mentioned that a guy that goes by fabri8tor on HD forums setup the shim pak for my application, not sure thats all he did.. I do run the 5wt syn oil and love the setup.. He recommended the oil to me as well.. Dang, does everything on here have to be a pissing match? 

You mention shim stack,  emulators don't have a shim stack.  Has one been added?

I think st has Ricor Intiminators..........

[No Cents]

Ray, My bike is an 09.. The shimstack in the emulators is not the factory set.. I mentioned that a guy that goes by fabri8tor on HD forums setup the shim pak for my application, not sure thats all he did.. I do run the 5wt syn oil and love the setup.. He recommended the oil to me as well.. Dang, does everything on here have to be a pissing match? 

   
   with all the different options with emulators and different dampner rods with mods being done to them has me just totally confused now on what I actually need to get to make the front end of my bike handle better.
   I wasn't wanting to start up any pissin matches here...I was just looking for some good advice on what I need.

   So...is my factory dampner with just adding the Race Tech 1.0/kg springs good enough...or should I go with their gold emulators too?
   Or option #2...just get the Progressive mono tubes?

Ray

[04 SE Deuce]

Ray,  I would use the kit with emulators and not mod the rebound holes in the emulator,  no need to re-invent what RT has...just choose the right settings.

If you do only springs there is a guy on hdforums that has been trying for some time to sell his RT 1.0kg/mm springs by themselves,  knowing what you can buy them for maybe he's ready to accept a reasonable price.

[04 SE Deuce]

Ray, My bike is an 09.. The shimstack in the emulators is not the factory set.. I mentioned that a guy that goes by fabri8tor on HD forums setup the shim pak for my application, not sure thats all he did.. I do run the 5wt syn oil and love the setup.. He recommended the oil to me as well.. Dang, does everything on here have to be a pissing match? 

You mention shim stack,  emulators don't have a shim stack.  Has one been added?

I think st has Ricor Intiminators..........

Yeah,  Jason is the guy IIRC who tries to free the Intimidators up to improve ride quality.  Funny I get PM's from different guys about those and sometimes it's the same pair getting sold and passed around.  Lol.  -Rick

[Admiral Akbar]

Number of holes, oil viscosity and seat pressure on the spring set the cross over point from low speed to high speed..

Correct and stating the obvious.  My point was you would have to increase the emulator spring rate to get the same damping curve (med/high speed when the spring is in play) with a lighter oil as compared to a heavier oil,  especially of your intend was not to change the crossover point/pressure.

Understood.. That's why I run the blue springs instead of the gold ones on the RK..

But rebound damping changed when the fairing bikes got HD emulators.. They had to as the HD emulator has smaller orifices on the compression side..

Totally aware of that as we have discussed in the past,  have the rebound holes sizes written down,  just not sure I agree with running less rebound damping than stock with stiffer springs,  stock being as they come with type E oil.  Feel is personal taste though.  Traxxion closes the rebound hole in order to run lighter oil.

I find it funny that HD specifies E for both non emulator forks and HD emulator forks.. Rebound damping orifices are smaller in the emulator damping rods. I suspect it's mainly because they don't have anything lighter (oil)...

BTW
Bang for the buck stock HD emulators are fine but HD just puts too heavy oil in them and spring rates are too low tho I've not tested stock HD springs in the emulator forks.

[No Cents]

  ok...speaking of fork oil...what do you guys suggest for fork oil.
Telling me a brand name and specific weight and how much fluid your running in each tube...won't hurt my feelings in the least.

Ray

[04 SE Deuce]

  ok...speaking of fork oil...what do you guys suggest for fork oil.
Telling me a brand name and specific weight and how much fluid your running in each tube...won't hurt my feelings in the least.

Ray

I'll pm or email you the works if you decide on the spring/emulator kit.  Can also give you a few references,  members here that run similar and some that have tried/compared different set-ups to include lighter oil,  a couple of them are 2009 & 2010 bikes. 

Most oil companies will give you their viscosity specs cSt@40C and at 100C,  I look at 40C which is 104 degrees Fahrenheit to select viscosity.  Picking a quality oil that doesn't thin as much at temp is fine but not necessary on a cruiser. 

Rider weight,  riding style and preferences can sway the setting a bit.  I'd pick an oil in the 40-50 range at 40C to start. 

Running the oil level up around 5.5" helps a little with bottoming by firming that last 1.5" or so of travel with very marginal effect on ride quality/bump absorption near ride height.

37-38 mm of fork spring preload will get you the desired 1.25" SAG with rider depending on your weight.  Preload measured the way RT used to specify,  with only the fork leg weight hanging against the top-out spring no fender or wheel etc. compressing the top-out spring.  Now they spec an actual installed preload of 25mm which has you measuring the amount the top-out springs collapse after you install the caps.  37-38mm prior to installing the fork caps is real close to 25mm actual/installed with a 1.0kg/mm spring,  given the amount the top-out spring compresses.

[No Cents]

  pm away Rick!
I need all the help I can get on this subject.
For example...I have no clue what your talking about when you said:
"37- 38 mm of fork spring preload."

  You have to remember here...I've never done this kind of suspension upgrade before...so I'm basically an idiot when it comes to the front fork suspension. 

Ray

[04 SE Deuce]

Understood.. That's why I run the blue springs instead of the gold ones on the RK..

Last time we talked I thought I finally had gotten you to consider the possibility that yellow springs could work better in the RK.  You have 20wt oil in the RK with 4 turns on the emulator...time to go yellow springs,  it's a win-win.  Set at 2 turns the yellow springs will open sooner than blue springs at 4 turns to give good ride quality and earlier crossover but will not open as fast or as far which will keep the suspension from traveling excessively and slow dive speed.  A bagger with 1.0kg/mm springs can still use this help. 

[fatboy]

  ok...speaking of fork oil...what do you guys suggest for fork oil.
Telling me a brand name and specific weight and how much fluid your running in each tube...won't hurt my feelings in the least.

Ray

I'll pm or email you the works if you decide on the spring/emulator kit.  Can also give you a few references,  members here that run similar and some that have tried/compared different set-ups to include lighter oil,  a couple of them are 2009 & 2010 bikes. 

Most oil companies will give you their viscosity specs cSt@40C and at 100C,  I look at 40C which is 104 degrees Fahrenheit to select viscosity.  Picking a quality oil that doesn't thin as much at temp is fine but not necessary on a cruiser. 

Rider weight,  riding style and preferences can sway the setting a bit.  I'd pick an oil in the 40-50 range at 40C to start. 

Running the oil level up around 5.5" helps a little with bottoming by firming that last 1.5" or so of travel with very marginal effect on ride quality/bump absorption near ride height.

37-38 mm of fork spring preload will get you the desired 1.25" SAG with rider depending on your weight.  Preload measured the way RT used to specify,  with only the fork leg weight hanging against the top-out spring no fender or wheel etc. compressing the top-out spring.  Now they spec an actual installed preload of 25mm which has you measuring the amount the top-out springs collapse after you install the caps.  37-38mm prior to installing the fork caps is real close to 25mm actual/installed with a 1.0kg/mm spring,  given the amount the top-out spring compresses.

Any way to check the oil level with forks installed ... measuring down from top of triple tree, sag out and with forks straight up?

[Admiral Akbar]

Understood.. That's why I run the blue springs instead of the gold ones on the RK..

Last time we talked I thought I finally had gotten you to consider the possibility that yellow springs could work better in the RK.  You have 20wt oil in the RK with 4 turns on the emulator...time to go yellow springs,  it's a win-win.  Set at 2 turns the yellow springs will open sooner than blue springs at 4 turns to give good ride quality and earlier crossover but will not open as fast or as far which will keep the suspension from traveling excessively and slow dive speed.  A bagger with 1.0kg/mm springs can still use this help.

Well towards the end of conversation, I'd agreed to about anything..    Been riding it from then until now and its still the same.. I like it.. Played with the rebound damping in the rear but nothing to the front.. New tires.. I like the AEs on the RK..

I haven't noticed a high initial dive, only a slow roll forward.. Mass centralization on a bagger is different then a softail..

[strokerjlk]

  pm away Rick!
I need all the help I can get on this subject.
For example...I have no clue what your talking about when you said:
"37- 38 mm of fork spring preload."

  You have to remember here...I've never done this kind of suspension upgrade before...so I'm basically an idiot when it comes to the front fork suspension. 

Ray

That's why it is a lot easier to drop in good cartridges .

[Admiral Akbar]

  pm away Rick!
I need all the help I can get on this subject.
For example...I have no clue what your talking about when you said:
"37- 38 mm of fork spring preload."

  You have to remember here...I've never done this kind of suspension upgrade before...so I'm basically an idiot when it comes to the front fork suspension. 

Ray

That's why it is a lot easier to drop in good cartridges .

Yeah.. If you want to play with the suspension get emulators.. If you want a cheap way with only springs do what I suggested. If you just want better and want to be done with it, get the cartridge.

I guess it all depends on what bang for buck means.. (Hate term; along with 40 others  )

[04 SE Deuce]

The actually work is easy.  If you have decent settings/set-up that several here have been happy with and even come back to after experimenting,  I'd say pretty safe beat.  Same set-up with minor variations has been proven/done lots of times given we are working with a bike with oem stock suspension parts,  not a modified nightmare with altered or limited suspension.

Helped a member earlier this month with a set-up/tips for a 2011 bagger,  he's happy with the forks on the initial settings, now he's having his Works rear shocks re-valved trying to get the rear working better.  His other bike has Ricor Intimidators and he was hesitant to try the emulators...he likes em.


Bruce I think you just like play'n hard to get. 

[Admiral Akbar]

The actually work is easy.  If you have decent settings/set-up that several here have been happy with and even come back to after experimenting,  I'd say pretty safe beat.  Same set-up with minor variations has been proven/done lots of times given we are working with a bike with oem stock suspension parts,  not a modified nightmare with altered or limited suspension.

Helped a member earlier this month with a set-up/tips for a 2011 bagger,  he's happy with the forks on the initial settings, now he's having his Works rear shocks re-valved trying to get the rear working better.  His other bike has Ricor Intimidators and he was hesitant to try the emulators...he likes em.


Bruce I think you just like play'n hard to get. 

Yeah.. You can call it that.. So what did you end up with on the 2011??   Did you ride it??

[strokerjlk]

  pm away Rick!
I need all the help I can get on this subject.
For example...I have no clue what your talking about when you said:
"37- 38 mm of fork spring preload."

  You have to remember here...I've never done this kind of suspension upgrade before...so I'm basically an idiot when it comes to the front fork suspension. 

Ray

That's why it is a lot easier to drop in good cartridges .

Yeah.. If you want to play with the suspension get emulators.. If you want a cheap way with only springs do what I suggested. If you just want better and want to be done with it, get the cartridge.

I guess it all depends on what bang for buck means.. (Hate term; along with 40 others  )

how bout the term 1 and done    no more nasty fork oil to change. no puck puck

[Scooter_trash_1]

Edited my post to reflect the setup I am running.. had to look back thru my reciepts to see what I had in there.. been 5yrs I see and 55000 miles ago.. all happy miles I might add.. Thanks Guys, glad we got that all straightened out.. whew!

[04 SE Deuce]

  pm away Rick!
I need all the help I can get on this subject.
For example...I have no clue what your talking about when you said:
"37- 38 mm of fork spring preload."

  You have to remember here...I've never done this kind of suspension upgrade before...so I'm basically an idiot when it comes to the front fork suspension. 

Ray

That's why it is a lot easier to drop in good cartridges .

Yeah.. If you want to play with the suspension get emulators.. If you want a cheap way with only springs do what I suggested. If you just want better and want to be done with it, get the cartridge.

I guess it all depends on what bang for buck means.. (Hate term; along with 40 others  )

how bout the term 1 and done    no more nasty fork oil to change. no puck puck

Jim you still should change the "spash" oil when using econotubes, still have wear/debris.  Heck Progressive started putting plastic tubes over the damper rod because the spring was wearing spots on in the rod during shipment...their story not mine.  Also an inexpensive sealed (non-serviceable) cartridge has a service life not unlike an automotive gas strut or shock.  But I guess you could take the low maintenance road and send them back for replacement when you feel they are degrading.  Replace fork seals, bushings if needed, replacement cartridges, few ounces of oil and repeat.