Advice on Timken conversion

[Admiral Akbar]

I loose about 0.002 end-play when comparing to the setup tool..   

Like the nut.. Looks like a 316ss shouldered one from McMaster..

[les]

I have gotten a lot of use out of it.  When I bought it, I also got a handful of miscellaneous other pieces, including the machined washer (photo in a previous post).  I never used the washer though, until this conversion job.  The washer is hardened and very precise.  Without it I could not have rigged up the setup for checking the endplay on the flywheel because the JIMS 973-1 could not have been supported.  So, it came in handy big time.

[les]

This is the fabricated piece I use during the simulator process.  (A friend made it out of scrap and machined off a nice level deck.)  I put assembly lube on the fat deck of this tool and the fat crown of the nut.  They work very well together for simulator process.

[les]

A final word...  One of the most important tools I've found for this job is the JIMS 973.  I use it for pressing on the Timkens, pressing in the sprocket shaft seal, and used it effectively to check the endplay with the real flywheels.

[harleytoprock]

A few post back there was talk about the timkens end play settings and the lubrication requirements for a tight fitting bearing verses a loose fitting bearing. I find it interesting that auto pinion timken bearings on car rear ends are set to have no end play and are preloaded to have about 25 inch pounds of rotational drag. And this tight bearing is lubed with thick gear lube which is cooler in operational temp than motor oil. Go figure.

[rbabos]

A few post back there was talk about the timkens end play settings and the lubrication requirements for a tight fitting bearing verses a loose fitting bearing. I find it interesting that auto pinion timken bearings on car rear ends are set to have no end play and are preloaded to have about 25 inch pounds of rotational drag. And this tight bearing is lubed with thick gear lube which is cooler in operational temp than motor oil. Go figure.

Yup. Timkens sometimes will not last in some applications unless they are preloaded. Had rollers at a print shop that was always trashing rollers set to a slight clearance. Once they were preloaded problems went away. Bearing skate was the cause of failures and the suggestion from the bearing company was to preload them so contact is never broken.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

A few post back there was talk about the timkens end play settings and the lubrication requirements for a tight fitting bearing verses a loose fitting bearing. I find it interesting that auto pinion timken bearings on car rear ends are set to have no end play and are preloaded to have about 25 inch pounds of rotational drag. And this tight bearing is lubed with thick gear lube which is cooler in operational temp than motor oil. Go figure.

Yup. Timkens sometimes will not last in some applications unless they are preloaded. Had rollers at a print shop that was always trashing rollers set to a slight clearance. Once they were preloaded problems went away. Bearing skate was the cause of failures and the suggestion from the bearing company was to preload them so contact is never broken.
Ron

With a print shop roller, I would expect  that there is a lot of axial shock load.. Any clearance would eventually allow the roller bearings to beat themselves into the races.. Not sure it was bearing skipping..  Kind like why you preload wheel bearing Timkens..

[rbabos]

A few post back there was talk about the timkens end play settings and the lubrication requirements for a tight fitting bearing verses a loose fitting bearing. I find it interesting that auto pinion timken bearings on car rear ends are set to have no end play and are preloaded to have about 25 inch pounds of rotational drag. And this tight bearing is lubed with thick gear lube which is cooler in operational temp than motor oil. Go figure.

Yup. Timkens sometimes will not last in some applications unless they are preloaded. Had rollers at a print shop that was always trashing rollers set to a slight clearance. Once they were preloaded problems went away. Bearing skate was the cause of failures and the suggestion from the bearing company was to preload them so contact is never broken.
Ron

With a print shop roller, I would expect  that there is a lot of axial shock load.. Any clearance would eventually allow the roller bearings to beat themselves into the races.. Not sure it was bearing skipping..  Kind like why you preload wheel bearing Timkens..

I can buy the axial shock load as the real cause. If it was skate, hell just about every timken in a Harley would be trashed in no time. I've never seen a preloaded tapered timken wheel bearing. Set up for me is take up the slack to 0 play and back off to the first available cotter pin notch to introduce a hair of clearance. That's how we were taught a gazzilion years ago when I did my autobody apprenticeship.
Ron

[kd]

   Snug to a slight pre-load and rotate then take back off and take up the slack (like finding 0 lash in pushrods) followed by placing the cotter pin as you describe (only drop back a hole if necessary). The difference is on disc brakes or with oil sealed hubs. Loose fit bearings on disc brake wheels result in a low brake pedal height because bearing play kicks back the pads when running down the road and causes more clearance that must be taken up on application. Oil filled hubs and seals (as found in most large trucks or on rear differential housings) where the gear lube services the wheel bearings need more stability to prevent oil seal leaks caused by movement of the hub on the spindle.

[les]

  Snug to a slight pre-load and rotate then take back off and take up the slack (like finding 0 lash in pushrods) followed by placing the cotter pin as you describe (only drop back a hole if necessary). The difference is on disc brakes or with oil sealed hubs. Loose fit bearings on disc brake wheels result in a low brake pedal height because bearing play kicks back the pads when running down the road and causes more clearance that must be taken up on application. Oil filled hubs and seals (as found in most large trucks or on rear differential housings) where the gear lube services the wheel bearings need more stability to prevent oil seal leaks caused by movement of the hub on the spindle.

So what kind of differences have you seen going from the simulator to the flywheels with the Timken conversion?

[les]

So, after a long time saving up the money, buying parts, and rebuilding the engine, I finally loaded a map (something close off the SERT disk) and took the bike for a break-in ride.  As mentioned in the thread, I've done two native Timken bottom ends before but this is my first conversion.  I've got a rule that I never claim I've done a job correctly until there is 10,000 miles on the bike.

So, my question is...how long does it take for a Timken sprocket shaft bearing to spin if it's been installed with too tight of flywheel endplay?  Right away?  Couple thousand miles?  I'm wondering when a person determines if their .001" [measured] flywheel endplay is right on the money or they made a slight mistake and end up with a spun bearing.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

This is how we perform this work as well, and mount in a surface grinder if needed.
Well equipped shops have manufactured tools/tooling, jigs, and specialty fixtures over the years to allow the correct methodology, such as Randy, or Kirby.

[prodrag1320]

ive made up a bunch of dummy shafts for checking end play,if any one wants one,PM me

[les]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

This is how we perform this work as well, and mount in a surface grinder if needed.
Well equipped shops have manufactured tools/tooling, jigs, and specialty fixtures over the years to allow the correct methodology, such as Randy, or Kirby.

I'm not understanding something here, maybe.  The bearing distorts and makes the endplay tighter by about .002" when going from simulator to the real (hard pressed) flywheel.  If you're setting the endplay on the simulator tighter than .003", then you'll end up with the bearing being too tight.  Question, after you setup on the simulator, do you actually take an endplay measurement using the real flywheel, or do you say it's good enough because it was measured on the simulator?  I measure both times; set the endplay on the simulator at ~.003" and then take another endplay measurement once the bearings are hard pressed on to the real flywheel.  I consistently see .002" of tightening up, exactly as specified in the service manual.

[KingofCubes]

I also check with actual parts at the end of pinion shaft after installing assembly.

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[rbabos]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

This is how we perform this work as well, and mount in a surface grinder if needed.
Well equipped shops have manufactured tools/tooling, jigs, and specialty fixtures over the years to allow the correct methodology, such as Randy, or Kirby.

I'm not understanding something here, maybe.  The bearing distorts and makes the endplay tighter by about .002" when going from simulator to the real (hard pressed) flywheel.  If you're setting the endplay on the simulator tighter than .003", then you'll end up with the bearing being too tight.  Question, after you setup on the simulator, do you actually take an endplay measurement using the real flywheel, or do you say it's good enough because it was measured on the simulator?  I measure both times; set the endplay on the simulator at ~.003" and then take another endplay measurement once the bearings are hard pressed on to the real flywheel.  I consistently see .002" of tightening up, exactly as specified in the service manual.

What you are seeing is correct and it should be that way. The slight press on the shaft expands both inner races just enough to drop down the end play. Actual pressed on fit should be varified, as you've done because press amounts vary between shafts and or repeated bearing replacements on the same shaft.
Ron

[KingofCubes]

Simply check at end of pinion shaft after installing assembly.

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[HD/Wrench]

you loose .0015 on the fit with a dummy shaft. I made my own dummy tool and then I  recheck every one I do once pressed on and 99.9 fall into that reduction . You take that into account when you shim it .


I shoot for .0025-003 endplay so you set it up at .0045. Now I use the case with the races installed, with the dummy shaft  (stock sprocket shaft that I have removed from a junk crank). The shaft is welded to a square steel tube. Clamp that in the vise set you bearing on then the shim next bearing tq it down check end play..  BTW you do not need full tq spec as that is really for holding the comp on not the end play. You are not going to get further crush on a non interference steel part with  huge increase in tq spec. I use 75 lbs no change from that to 160 .

[rbabos]

you loose .0015 on the fit with a dummy shaft. I made my own dummy tool and then I  recheck every one I do once pressed on and 99.9 fall into that reduction . You take that into account when you shim it

Ron

[les]

So, after a long time saving up the money, buying parts, and rebuilding the engine, I finally loaded a map (something close off the SERT disk) and took the bike for a break-in ride.  As mentioned in the thread, I've done two native Timken bottom ends before but this is my first conversion.  I've got a rule that I never claim I've done a job correctly until there is 10,000 miles on the bike.

So, my question is...how long does it take for a Timken sprocket shaft bearing to spin if it's been installed with too tight of flywheel endplay?  Right away?  Couple thousand miles?  I'm wondering when a person determines if their .001" [measured] flywheel endplay is right on the money or they made a slight mistake and end up with a spun bearing.

So, what about my question?


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[rbabos]

So, after a long time saving up the money, buying parts, and rebuilding the engine, I finally loaded a map (something close off the SERT disk) and took the bike for a break-in ride.  As mentioned in the thread, I've done two native Timken bottom ends before but this is my first conversion.  I've got a rule that I never claim I've done a job correctly until there is 10,000 miles on the bike.

So, my question is...how long does it take for a Timken sprocket shaft bearing to spin if it's been installed with too tight of flywheel endplay?  Right away?  Couple thousand miles?  I'm wondering when a person determines if their .001" [measured] flywheel endplay is right on the money or they made a slight mistake and end up with a spun bearing.

So, what about my question?


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Not a logical question really. If no end play was detected, why would it be run in the first place? Mind you, the bearing can be set to 0.000 and it will be fine but 0.000 might be under preload so you can't trust that so some however small end play should be the starting point. The difference between room temp and normal engine case temp in around the races will give you an easy .001+ but there should be some detectable end play first at room temp.
I found this out when I had my 113 set up. Came in at .0005 at room temp. Concerned about this, I heated the case with a heat gun when I had it set up to measure play. Even warm to the hand in this area it climbed to .001 easily so no doubt actual running fit at operational temps was in the .001-.002 most likely. Can you imagine how much that crank rattles around set up at .004 cold? No thanks.

Ron

[les]

Yes, it is a logical question.  If no one has experience with the question I'm asking, that's ok.  Asking anyway. 


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[FXDBI]

So, after a long time saving up the money, buying parts, and rebuilding the engine, I finally loaded a map (something close off the SERT disk) and took the bike for a break-in ride.  As mentioned in the thread, I've done two native Timken bottom ends before but this is my first conversion.  I've got a rule that I never claim I've done a job correctly until there is 10,000 miles on the bike.

So, my question is...how long does it take for a Timken sprocket shaft bearing to spin if it's been installed with too tight of flywheel endplay?  Right away?  Couple thousand miles?  I'm wondering when a person determines if their .001" [measured] flywheel endplay is right on the money or they made a slight mistake and end up with a spun bearing.

First time it gets real hot you will find out if its to tight.  Bob

[rbabos]

Yes, it is a logical question.  If no one has experience with the question I'm asking, that's ok.  Asking anyway. 


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The running clearance will increase with heat. If installed too tight as in 0 clearance, cold running could cause damage and the colder the temp when the engine is started the tighter the clearance the bearing will see. Mileage would only come into play is it was set up so tight that expansion from heat didn't offer any clearance when hot. Otherwise damaging effects would only be from operation at cold engine operations. There would be no way to determine this actual failure point if any,  since how tight is tight in the first place and how cold it is when the bearing is working and does it get clearance when the engine warms up. Setting a bearing up at .001-..0015 will cover the freezing cold weather contracations and not be too sloppy when at operating temps. Still not sure I helped with your question.
Ron

[les]

Bob and Ron.  Your replies did help.  Thanks. 


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