Advice on Timken conversion

[les]

I'm going to be doing my first conversion.  I have done Timken bottom ends before, including replacing ALL bearing components and checking flywheel endplay.  What I'm looking for in this posting is advice on doing the conversion.  Things to look out for.  Warnings and cautions.  Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

I have a sprocket shaft simulator.  I have the SE tool  (34823-08).

Let me start with a question.  I believe that when I measure, I'll find that the snap ring that separates the races in the Timken bearing set is a different thickness than the integral race separator in the insert.  How might I go guessing the spacer ring I'll need to try after measuring both?

Any other advice is appreciated.  I just know there's something in there the instructions are not alerting me about.

[KingofCubes]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

[Just Nick]

There is no way to guess it you just have to torque it in and measure I will say on the last two I did I was surprised that they fell in my spec. I also set them on the tight side .001-.003" I have never set them any looser like some guys will

[1FSTRK]

les if you have purchased the complete timken matched set (includes both bearings and both spacers) measure the outer spacer from the bearing set and the outer race spacer that is machined into the conversion sleeve and find the difference. Measure the thickness of the inner spacer from the set and pick the new inner spacer thickness by adding or subtracting the difference from the outer spacer numbers. You still need to actually check end play but this will be as close a starting point as using the complete set.

[prodrag1320]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

same way here,you may need an assortment of center spacers,ive got 100`s of them,let me know if you need some (or once you found what size you need,i can surface grind one for you)

[motorhogman]

I can't help you with your project but I just scratched one question off my list for one of my near future posts.

Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

When I removed mine the scavenger tube 0 ring stayed in place and I was going to ask better on the tube or in the case when re-installing.. TY

[les]

I can't help you with your project but I just scratched one question off my list for one of my near future posts.

Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

When I removed mine the scavenger tube 0 ring stayed in place and I was going to ask better on the tube or in the case when re-installing.. TY

I already made that mistake (o-ring in the hole and not the tube).  Wet sumping due to cut o-ring.  Don't do it.  On the oil pump tube, heavy assembly lube on hole bevel and o-ring, push in slowly and carefully.

[les]

There is no way to guess it you just have to torque it in and measure I will say on the last two I did I was surprised that they fell in my spec. I also set them on the tight side .001-.003" I have never set them any looser like some guys will

When using the simulator (polished to slip fit the bearing) I set to around .003".  The SM says .003" - .007".  When I hard press fit on to the actual sprocket shaft, it distorts the bearing.  I find if the simulator measures .003", the actual hard press fit ends up around .001", which I like.

[les]

les if you have purchased the complete timken matched set (includes both bearings and both spacers) measure the outer spacer from the bearing set and the outer race spacer that is machined into the conversion sleeve and find the difference. Measure the thickness of the inner spacer from the set and pick the new inner spacer thickness by adding or subtracting the difference from the outer spacer numbers. You still need to actually check end play but this will be as close a starting point as using the complete set.

Thanks for verifying something I suspected.  Now for a dumb question along these same lines...

The ring that comes in the bearing set is a sharp right-angle on both sides, because it's a ring all by itself.  The insert has a very slight rounded edge where it's part of the insert.  Does this rounded edge come into play when I press the races in?  Or do the races sit flush flat against the flat side of the integral spacer?  Why am I asking this question?  I'm envisioning using the micrometer to measure the integral spacer in the insert.  Also envisioning the race being pressed in and if it will rest flat flush to the integral spacer or a little bit on the slight radius.  (I did say this was going to be a dumb question. I also know I'm over thinking this.  But the dumbest little things I think never will happen, seem to happen with me.)

Also, I've got the orange harbor freight 12-ton press.  Is this press precise enough to use the SE tool to press the insert in?  They say things about it must be .010" flat, and the like.  The tool seems very helpful with alignment.  Is it pretty straight forward during the press in?  Anyone ever get an insert cocked and have to struggle to press it back out?

[les]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

same way here,you may need an assortment of center spacers,ive got 100`s of them,let me know if you need some (or once you found what size you need,i can surface grind one for you)

Thank you very much!  I'll try to get a few from the dealer that are +/- around the one I think I'll need.  If I can pull it off that way, I'll send out an SOS.

It's interesting that I can measure the difference between the integral spacer and the bearing set ring, then measure the bearing set spacer, and just to the addition/subtraction.  I would think it's more complicated than that considering the bearings are at an angle.

[1FSTRK]

les if you have purchased the complete timken matched set (includes both bearings and both spacers) measure the outer spacer from the bearing set and the outer race spacer that is machined into the conversion sleeve and find the difference. Measure the thickness of the inner spacer from the set and pick the new inner spacer thickness by adding or subtracting the difference from the outer spacer numbers. You still need to actually check end play but this will be as close a starting point as using the complete set.

Thanks for verifying something I suspected.  Now for a dumb question along these same lines...

The ring that comes in the bearing set is a sharp right-angle on both sides, because it's a ring all by itself.  The insert has a very slight rounded edge where it's part of the insert.  Does this rounded edge come into play when I press the races in?  Or do the races sit flush flat against the flat side of the integral spacer?  Why am I asking this question?  I'm envisioning using the micrometer to measure the integral spacer in the insert.  Also envisioning the race being pressed in and if it will rest flat flush to the integral spacer or a little bit on the slight radius.  (I did say this was going to be a dumb question. I also know I'm over thinking this.  But the dumbest little things I think never will happen, seem to happen with me.)

Also, I've got the orange harbor freight 12-ton press.  Is this press precise enough to use the SE tool to press the insert in?  They say things about it must be .010" flat, and the like.  The tool seems very helpful with alignment.  Is it pretty straight forward during the press in?  Anyone ever get an insert cocked and have to struggle to press it back out?

If you look at the back side of the timken cone races they have a radius on them so they will only make contact with the flat surface on the SE insert.

As for your press run the ram out \ and check the bottom of the ram to the base plate on the press for parallel. you can also use a square in two directions up the side of the ram to see it is perpendicular both ways. You get the idea, you just do not want the press to cock it when you apply pressure.

[1FSTRK]

I don't try to guess, I torque the simulator I made to 160 and set the play between .001"-.003". I have a magnetic base surface grinder if I don't have the right thickness spacer I grind one to suit.

same way here,you may need an assortment of center spacers,ive got 100`s of them,let me know if you need some (or once you found what size you need,i can surface grind one for you)

Thank you very much!  I'll try to get a few from the dealer that are +/- around the one I think I'll need.  If I can pull it off that way, I'll send out an SOS.

It's interesting that I can measure the difference between the integral spacer and the bearing set ring, then measure the bearing set spacer, and just to the addition/subtraction.  I would think it's more complicated than that considering the bearings are at an angle.

They are matched sets, what ever you do to the outer you must do to the inner. It is just a quick starting point, you do not want to start smaller because you need to have play to measure and subtract from there.

[Admiral Akbar]

I can't help you with your project but I just scratched one question off my list for one of my near future posts.

Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

When I removed mine the scavenger tube 0 ring stayed in place and I was going to ask better on the tube or in the case when re-installing.. TY

I already made that mistake (o-ring in the hole and not the tube).  Wet sumping due to cut o-ring.  Don't do it.  On the oil pump tube, heavy assembly lube on hole bevel and o-ring, push in slowly and carefully.

You mistake was that you didn't look closely at the spigot on the oil pump.. It likely had some casting flashing on the end that cut the O ring.. It's also good to check the machined hole for burrs in the case and fer sure use lube..

[les]

les if you have purchased the complete timken matched set (includes both bearings and both spacers) measure the outer spacer from the bearing set and the outer race spacer that is machined into the conversion sleeve and find the difference. Measure the thickness of the inner spacer from the set and pick the new inner spacer thickness by adding or subtracting the difference from the outer spacer numbers. You still need to actually check end play but this will be as close a starting point as using the complete set.

Thanks for verifying something I suspected.  Now for a dumb question along these same lines...

The ring that comes in the bearing set is a sharp right-angle on both sides, because it's a ring all by itself.  The insert has a very slight rounded edge where it's part of the insert.  Does this rounded edge come into play when I press the races in?  Or do the races sit flush flat against the flat side of the integral spacer?  Why am I asking this question?  I'm envisioning using the micrometer to measure the integral spacer in the insert.  Also envisioning the race being pressed in and if it will rest flat flush to the integral spacer or a little bit on the slight radius.  (I did say this was going to be a dumb question. I also know I'm over thinking this.  But the dumbest little things I think never will happen, seem to happen with me.)

Also, I've got the orange harbor freight 12-ton press.  Is this press precise enough to use the SE tool to press the insert in?  They say things about it must be .010" flat, and the like.  The tool seems very helpful with alignment.  Is it pretty straight forward during the press in?  Anyone ever get an insert cocked and have to struggle to press it back out?

If you look at the back side of the timken cone races they have a radius on them so they will only make contact with the flat surface on the SE insert.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear!

[les]

I can't help you with your project but I just scratched one question off my list for one of my near future posts.

Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

When I removed mine the scavenger tube 0 ring stayed in place and I was going to ask better on the tube or in the case when re-installing.. TY

I already made that mistake (o-ring in the hole and not the tube).  Wet sumping due to cut o-ring.  Don't do it.  On the oil pump tube, heavy assembly lube on hole bevel and o-ring, push in slowly and carefully.

You mistake was that you didn't look closely at the spigot on the oil pump.. It likely had some casting flashing on the end that cut the O ring.. It's also good to check the machined hole for burrs in the case and fer sure use lube..

So, the way you do it is to put the o-ring in the hole rather than the oil pump tube?

[Admiral Akbar]

I can't help you with your project but I just scratched one question off my list for one of my near future posts.

Let me give you example.  If someone is asking my advice on working in a cam chest, one thing I will tell them is to put the o-ring on the scavenge tube (rather than in the hole) when pressing the oil pump in, because there is less chance of pinching/cutting the o-ring.

When I removed mine the scavenger tube 0 ring stayed in place and I was going to ask better on the tube or in the case when re-installing.. TY

I already made that mistake (o-ring in the hole and not the tube).  Wet sumping due to cut o-ring.  Don't do it.  On the oil pump tube, heavy assembly lube on hole bevel and o-ring, push in slowly and carefully.

You mistake was that you didn't look closely at the spigot on the oil pump.. It likely had some casting flashing on the end that cut the O ring.. It's also good to check the machined hole for burrs in the case and fer sure use lube..

So, the way you do it is to put the o-ring in the hole rather than the oil pump tube?

Yep..

BTW early oil pumps 99-2001(?) had the spigot machined.. Later (after 2001-2) had an investment cast spigot.  One less machining operation.. I'm guessing on the exact dates tho..   I check the later spigots for casting defects.. Clean them up, trying reduce not the diameter or length..   

[motorhogman]

Yep..

BTW early oil pumps 99-2001(?) had the spigot machined.. Later (after 2001-2) had an investment cast spigot.  One less machining operation.. I'm guessing on the exact dates tho..   I check the later spigots for casting defects.. Clean them up, trying reduce the diameter or length..

The cast one was my OEM 2001 , the machined one is what the dealer installed on warranty with cams etc,...

[les]

Thanks, Max and motorhogman.  I learned something about taking a look at flashing on the tube and hole.

If anyone else has additional insight and advice on the Timken insert conversion, please keep them coming.  I'm sure I'll have a bunch of experience to share after I've completed mine.  Especially, how well using a relatively cheep harbor freight press works.

[FSG]

Clean them up, trying reduce the diameter or length..

Clean them up, trying not to reduce the diameter or length..

[motorhogman]

Thanks, Max and motorhogman.  I learned something about taking a look at flashing on the tube and hole.

If anyone else has additional insight and advice on the Timken insert conversion, please keep them coming.  I'm sure I'll have a bunch of experience to share after I've completed mine.  Especially, how well using a relatively cheep harbor freight press works.

Feeling like I'm hi jacking your post a bit.. I just read the factory manual and it says to install that o- ring in the oil feed hole in the re-assembly directions.  and thanks Max ,  I learned something to..

[Admiral Akbar]

Yep..

BTW early oil pumps 99-2001(?) had the spigot machined.. Later (after 2001-2) had an investment cast spigot.  One less machining operation.. I'm guessing on the exact dates tho..   I check the later spigots for casting defects.. Clean them up, trying reduce the diameter or length..

The cast one was my OEM 2001 , the machined one is what the dealer installed on warranty with cams etc,...

Sounds like I might have them back asswards but still they are different...  The one you have looks to be modified as they were simply machined.. It may have been only 99-2000..

[motorhogman]

Yep..

BTW early oil pumps 99-2001(?) had the spigot machined.. Later (after 2001-2) had an investment cast spigot.  One less machining operation.. I'm guessing on the exact dates tho..   I check the later spigots for casting defects.. Clean them up, trying reduce the diameter or length..

The cast one was my OEM 2001 , the machined one is what the dealer installed on warranty with cams etc,...

Sounds like I might have them back asswards but still they are different...  The one you have looks to be modified as they were simply machined.. It may have been only 99-2000..

Well, at least you knew they are different.

[les]

Thanks, Max and motorhogman.  I learned something about taking a look at flashing on the tube and hole.

If anyone else has additional insight and advice on the Timken insert conversion, please keep them coming.  I'm sure I'll have a bunch of experience to share after I've completed mine.  Especially, how well using a relatively cheep harbor freight press works.

Feeling like I'm hi jacking your post a bit.. I just read the factory manual and it says to install that o- ring in the oil feed hole in the re-assembly directions.  and thanks Max ,  I learned something to..

Page 3-88 of 99483-11.  "See Figure 3-121.  Apply a very thin film of Screamin' Eagle Assembly Lube (Part No. 94971-09) to new scavenge port stub O-ring (6) and install on scavenge port stub of oil pump housing."

"Slide oil pump housing (5) onto crankshaft while fitting O-ring on scavenge port stub into crankcase bore.  Firmly push on scavenge port stub with thumb..."

Anyway, Max.  How about some advice on the Timken issue?  I know you've got some and I could sure use it on top of the good advice I've gotten thus far.

[Admiral Akbar]

Thanks, Max and motorhogman.  I learned something about taking a look at flashing on the tube and hole.

If anyone else has additional insight and advice on the Timken insert conversion, please keep them coming.  I'm sure I'll have a bunch of experience to share after I've completed mine.  Especially, how well using a relatively cheep harbor freight press works.

Feeling like I'm hi jacking your post a bit.. I just read the factory manual and it says to install that o- ring in the oil feed hole in the re-assembly directions.  and thanks Max ,  I learned something to..

Page 3-88 of 99483-11.  "See Figure 3-121.  Apply a very thin film of Screamin' Eagle Assembly Lube (Part No. 94971-09) to new scavenge port stub O-ring (6) and install on scavenge port stub of oil pump housing."

"Slide oil pump housing (5) onto crankshaft while fitting O-ring on scavenge port stub into crankcase bore.  Firmly push on scavenge port stub with thumb..."

Anyway, Max.  How about some advice on the Timken issue?  I know you've got some and I could sure use it on top of the good advice I've gotten thus far.

Yeah,, They also tell you to slip the housing on empty, then populate the inner stuff.     

Not sure what was asked except of bearing spacer differences.. Whatever you add or subtract from the spacer in the sleeve needs to be added or subtracted from the inner spacer... The inner spacer might need to be a little longer due to the interference fit of the bearing races or inner bearings on the crankshaft.. As others say set end clearance up a little loose on the tool and assemble will tighten when installed on the crank and in the case..  If you are pressing the races into the sleeve, I'd make sure that I'm pressing the race from the outside with something supporting the sleeve on the inside.. I would probably press the inner race in place first..

[les]

Wow.  I'm surprised no one has seen this before.  Really, you guys haven't seen this?