Best tuning software?

[UltraNutZ]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

[q1svt]

"If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used"

Okay ThunderMax [TMax] current version of products...

"There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running."
"Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors."
Okay so what...  FWIW, the WB sensor is providing data all of the time... Depending on the specific closed loop tuning product, that manufacturer decides what tables can/will be revised. 


"Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's."  [a new one for the record books]
"Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop."
As stated in reply# 23 ; close loop uses the table values all of the time... the long & short term learning is used to revise the tables.   


"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

"Accel table" 
TMax uses an Accel table, no WB close loop needed...

"Decel"
TMax uses three values & tables if it's turned on:
Decel Fuel Cut [on/off], Decel Fuel  RPM Low, RPM High & Decel Post Fuel Enrichment, and does update other tables with WB closed loop data.

"Warm up"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

"crank to run, cranking"
TMax uses Initial Fuel Pulse & Cranking Fuel table Values, no WB  close loop needed

"What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data, and the Bosch WB sensor uses its heater controller & algorithms to maintain its sensor within operating temperature range.



q1svt = Comments are in BLUE

[rbabos]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

True but they don't have that fkd up Sportster code. They have to be the worst running efi bikes on the planet.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

This bike was tuned with Vision and then the TT was installed.  Probably the same as the others mentioned in this thread.  But non of them have had AFR validated any other way.  There is no doubt in my mind that the TT system will maintain a tune.  That is different than setting a target and getting it to tune in.

What makes the best tuning software?  I say ease of operation, useful tables that actually address the problems that are occured during tuning and good direction so you can understand what is what with a accuarate discription of each table and how to use it.  Of course the more control left up to the tuner the better.  Automation isn't everything and can actually cause damage.  I will also add that another huge plus is.  If you can talk to the guy that actually writes in the code when problems do pop up, and also run a dyno.   Customer service means more to me than getting a good starter cal.  Sometimes because of the combination I have wanted some things changed in the back ground of the cal.  Email and 15 minutes later.  I have the new cal with the changes I want.  Example of this is:  I wanted a 176 cal that allowed me to target fuel, map VE's and timing tables for a 8000 rpm redline.  Remember that there is more than 2 systems out there and I am including them all.

This opinion is based on 8 years of tuning EFI bikes day in and day out with all the tuning systems.  Not based on what I am trying to sell.  Not based on the click of HTT and confirmtion bias because of what I have spent my money on. 

Good luck

[q1svt]

I will also add that another huge plus is.  If you can talk to the guy that actually writes in the code when problems do pop up, and also run a dyno.   Customer service means more to me than getting a good starter cal.  Sometimes because of the combination I have wanted some things changed in the back ground of the cal.  Remember that there is more than 2 systems out there and I am including them all.

This opinion is based on 8 years of tuning EFI bikes day in and day out with all the tuning systems.  Not based on what I am trying to sell.  Not based on the click of HTT and confirmtion bias because of what I have spent my money on. 

Sure sound like you're sell too...

But to your points, your brand in not alone, where I haven't spoken to Kevin Dudley, the TMax software engineer, I have had discussions with the ThunderMax dyno tuner that builds the maps and has the engineering version of the software    He's provided map changes outside of what's generally available & information on key internal processes.  A simple email with/without a data log get's a response back within 24 hours and I'm not one of their dealers, just a DIY guy...

AND, there have been many customer service posts, emails, maps & calls by Jamie for TT.  If a buddy talks me out of my TMax, there will be a PV TT going in even thro the bikes a 2006 [not a supported year, sorta] cause it's fun to play with good tuner products.

[whittlebeast]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

True but they don't have that fkd up Sportster code. They have to be the worst running efi bikes on the planet.
Ron

I agree that the Sportster was the worst base code that I have ever seen.  Sad that it could have been fixed if they wanted to fix it.  Dyno jet fixed it when they did the TT code.  I could feel it from the seat in the first mike and proved my hunch in a few min looking at the logs.

[glens]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

[Admiral Akbar]

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

With the better sampling LSU4 sensor, and it's blazin speed of 4 times a second.  Look at all the bad sampling it will miss during combustion events.  This really helps when filtering data to make pretty graphs.  Then you can add in that MAPxRPM will get you the airflow of any engine and then it just takes the time to tune it until the shared intake quits sharing air and the injector fuel only makes it into the cylinder it was meant for.  This can only happen after the LSU4's are installed because the extra wires help balance your injectors until they are matched.

All you have to do is slow down the loop control functions to something slower than the response than the sensor.. One thing that is interesting in the specs I've seen for the LSU4 is that they seem to spec a responses based as group delay.. But the actual frequency response is higher than the group delay..  In other words, you may be able to sample 10 times a second with the sensor but you need to remember that the current sample is only good for conditions that occurred 1/4 of s second ago.. So the software needs to remember what was going on 1/4 second ago and figure out if that the parameters at that time need changing...


Not sure what you mean by extra wires... 

[hrdtail78]

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

With the better sampling LSU4 sensor, and it's blazin speed of 4 times a second.  Look at all the bad sampling it will miss during combustion events.  This really helps when filtering data to make pretty graphs.  Then you can add in that MAPxRPM will get you the airflow of any engine and then it just takes the time to tune it until the shared intake quits sharing air and the injector fuel only makes it into the cylinder it was meant for.  This can only happen after the LSU4's are installed because the extra wires help balance your injectors until they are matched.

All you have to do is slow down the loop control functions to something slower than the response than the sensor.. One thing that is interesting in the specs I've seen for the LSU4 is that they seem to spec a responses based as group delay.. But the actual frequency response is higher than the group delay..  In other words, you may be able to sample 10 times a second with the sensor but you need to remember that the current sample is only good for conditions that occurred 1/4 of s second ago.. So the software needs to remember what was going on 1/4 second ago and figure out if that the parameters at that time need changing...


Not sure what you mean by extra wires...

My post got censors and taken down, but you quote it.  A little confused on how to proceed.  Don't want to take a bunch of time if it is just going to shed anyway.

[hrdtail78]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it. 

[Admiral Akbar]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it.

One thing to note about Tmax is that it is clueless about things like VE and MAP.. It is really only concerned with throttle position and RPM. All it remembers is injector pulse width and corrections it needs to apply to the PW..  I guess you could say that injector PW and with the learned corrections is really another version of VE but in a simpler form.. Don't need to do any calculations when using PW.. The only time the Tmax looks at AFR is when it compares it's sampled AFR to a value in the tables to see if the injector PW needs update.. Remember Tmax is full time closed loop. It is always looking at sampled AFR and looking to see if an injector PW needs change.. I'm not sure what the algorithms are but they seem to work pretty well.

[hrdtail78]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it.

One thing to note about Tmax is that it is clueless about things like VE and MAP.. It is really only concerned with throttle position and RPM. All it remembers is injector pulse width and corrections it needs to apply to the PW..  I guess you could say that injector PW and with the learned corrections is really another version of VE but in a simpler form.. Don't need to do any calculations when using PW.. The only time the Tmax looks at AFR is when it compares it's sampled AFR to a value in the tables to see if the injector PW needs update.. Remember Tmax is full time closed loop. It is always looking at sampled AFR and looking to see if an injector PW needs change.. I'm not sure what the algorithms are but they seem to work pretty well.

I have no time with a Tmax.  I have planned on making the school the past couple of years as soon as I can catch a break at the shop.  I don't get many calls about them but I would like to know the system.

I have tuned with direct PW control.  It is my thought that the reason VE's came about is it is easier to tune.  I don't know of any rule of thumb of how much Ms needed to be added to change a half point of fuel.  You would really have more info about the flow rate, and dead time of the injector.  Them not being linier doesn't help.  Dealing indirectly with PW through the representation of air flow by VE's does have a formula that is close 95% of the time.  PC is a good example of numbers that don't mean anything and you just change and send until you get the AFR you want, and like the direct PW control of other EFI systems.  Changes can be made live.  I'm happy not guessing PW and trimming rear cylinders of the front PW ever again.

[glens]

...

"Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's."  [a new one for the record books]

... 
q1svt = Comments are in BLUE

Maybe it's not the best word, but I've always used "dither" to describe the mechanism.

Off the top of my head I can think of two ways to achieve a desired outcome in a situation like this.  You could compare the sensor voltage "now" with the value (or range) tabulated for "these" conditions and try to (1) zero in on and maintain a discrete value, or (2) make some controlled swings back and forth across the target.

In the case of direct connection to narrow-band sensors, what with their characteristic response curves, I'd think it would be more productive to use the latter option.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a typical broad-band sensor controller do the same with its pump current to manage the reference air for the sensing chamber of its narrow-band element.

This part is more for the other thread running now, but it wouldn't make much sense to dither the injector pulse width, as for use of a narrow-band, while using a broad-band (closed-loop controlled) sensor which is doing its own dithering internally (and likely much faster since that's the only thing it's busy with, assuming comparable instruction execution times between the systems).  If you're dithering the fuel at the same time the sensor controller is dithering its air, both mechanisms could be either in phase or out, quite likely variably, for a real mixed bag of results.

[hrdtail78]

Maybe it's not the best word, but I've always used "dither" to describe the mechanism.

Off the top of my head I can think of two ways to achieve a desired outcome in a situation like this.  You could compare the sensor voltage "now" with the value (or range) tabulated for "these" conditions and try to (1) zero in on and maintain a discrete value, or (2) make some controlled swings back and forth across the target.

In the case of direct connection to narrow-band sensors, what with their characteristic response curves, I'd think it would be more productive to use the latter option.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a typical broad-band sensor controller do the same with its pump current to manage the reference air for the sensing chamber of its narrow-band element.

This part is more for the other thread running now, but it wouldn't make much sense to dither the injector pulse width, as for use of a narrow-band, while using a broad-band (closed-loop controlled) sensor which is doing its own dithering internally (and likely much faster since that's the only thing it's busy with, assuming comparable instruction execution times between the systems).  If you're dithering the fuel at the same time the sensor controller is dithering its air, both mechanisms could be either in phase or out, quite likely variably, for a real mixed bag of results.

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

[whittlebeast]

That would all be fun to prove.  Simply change the injector size by 7% on a fully tuned bike to try to force the entire map to run fat.  Now go ride the bike for an hour or two killing it every 1/2 hour or so, just for fun.  Now look what the system is doing in a data log.  Look if the entire AFF scatter plots comes up close to 93 everywhere.

I did something similar to this when I found out that the VE tables had some sort of offset going on years ago.  All great fun....

Andy

[hrdtail78]

That would all be fun to prove.  Simply change the injector size by 7% on a fully tuned bike to try to force the entire map to run fat.  Now go ride the bike for an hour or two killing it every 1/2 hour or so, just for fun.  Now look what the system is doing in a data log.  Look if the entire AFF scatter plots comes up close to 93 everywhere.

I did something similar to this when I found out that the VE tables had some sort of offset going on years ago.  All great fun....

Andy

Wouldn't it be quicker to watch integrators?  100 doesn't mean it's perfect.

[joe_lyons]

Setting the lowest KPA and rpm that closed loop will work (outside of the AFR/lambda table) would help in those weird pesky spots that may have bad exhaust signal.

[Coyote]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

[hrdtail78]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data. 

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.

[Coyote]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

[hrdtail78]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

Sounds like we are getting different info.  BUT to get back on topic.  It is a shame you guys have to buy another program to see the log files.  That is one of the best things about TTS.  Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

[Jamie Long]

It is a shame you guys have to buy another program to see the log files.

You can download the latest version of Dynojet PowerCore software which can be used with PV logs here http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/Software/Dynojet%20Power%20Core%20Setup%20v1.8.5687.25787.exe

Also note Target Tune absolutely is closed loop when PE fuel is active, and the closed loop temp thresholds are right there in the calibration.

Here is a screenshot of one of Coyote's TT maps that I reviewed, note closed loop min temp setting:



added screenshot

[Jamie Long]

Here is a MLVHD screenshot from a TT equipped bike during WOT upshifts under PE. Note closed loop operation (Front/Rear CLI)

[hrdtail78]

Here is a MLVHD screenshot from a TT equipped bike during WOT upshifts under PE. Note closed loop operation (Front/Rear CLI)

Will you post that data log?

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

Maybe, on the assumption it only reports CLI if it is using it.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

I didn't know you had access to Temp in the TT calibration.  Why did you pick that temp to start close loop operation?

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

Filtered is the wrong word.  Maybe capped?  It would be interesting how far it does stretch out without a AFF hit.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

Who did you talk to?
[/quote]

[Jamie Long]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I was talking with Roy H. from Dynojet on another subject this morning and brought up your comments. You should really give him another call