It's sumping

[04customking]

Alright. This thing is pissing me off now. Over the winter it sumped. No problem, should have drained it so I expected it. Now that I've drained it and put new in and have it running, it only takes a few days for it to sump. Made a nice burnishing tool and used it and put in a new ball. Figured that would do it. Nope. Two days. Pulled the pump off just now. Have everything clean and apart. I can drop the ball in and I don't even need to put the spring in and when I pour even light weight fork oil in on top of it NOTHING leaks by the ball. Seems to seal perfectly. Is there another way these sump? And so quickly? Could I have a wrong pump to engine gasket on it? Are there even different ones? I have inspected the pump under a magnifying glass and can see nothing even close to worn or out of spec. I'm going to throw something very soon.

[jellero]

so does it puke out the oil when you kick it over or just plain leak?
where does oil come out? mine is leaking but not from crank breather, just sitting. j

[Little Al]

now I'm not to smart about this stuff but if oil is draining from the bag while it's just sitting there I would think the only ways that could happen would be the ball check valve in the oil pump is not seating good enough or the bypass valve in the oil pump is bad or the oil screen (witches hat) check valve or gasket is leaking.

You're probably just overlooking something simple.

[04customking]

Mine is leaking out of the breather tube. No leaks just sitting there. I have the pump apart on my kitchen table and the seats are fine. I even put the ball in and poured water in on top of the ball to see how fast it leaked by the ball and absolutely nothing leaked by. That is tight. In my mind I have to figure out the paths of all this stuff. Oil can't get to the relief valve until it gets my the check valve I don't think. I'm going out to the garage and probably pull the cam cover off and see what's going on there.

[04customking]

Well, I pulled the cover off and checked every passage and tried to find something amiss and can't. I don't know what to do. I've read all the past posts on this and still can't figure it out. I don't want to put it back together without doing something but I don't know what else to do. I'm off to get new gaskets and oil so I can try again.

[Mule]

 Is it actually sumping ? Draining from the oil tank ? Or is it just puking while it is running? Do you have the separator and separator screen installed? oem # 25275-36 & 25279-36   Good luck , hope you find the cause...Mule...

[04customking]

Yes, it's sumping. Doesn't puke while running. I thought the seat and ball had to be bad so I made a burnisher tool and did the seat and replaced the ball. Ran the bike for a few minutes and let the bike sit for two days to test it. Just kicking it over I could hear the oil being pushed to the breather tube and sur enough it was starting to leak out. I just wish I could find something to fix. Nothing looks bad.

[Little Al]

Jim, your first mistake may be working on your kitchen table, that's what I do and why I have so many problems and you have such a nice garage/shop too!

sorry, I know exactly the frustration you feel, just trying to break it for you with a little humor.

again, I'm not that smart and have some questions going myself on that oh so mysterious to me oiling system but you might need to get back to the simple basics. You probably pegged it with the check valve. your water test is the reverse of the flow of the oil during normal operation right? maybe it's the spring that holds the ball against the seat? I'm taking stabs here with my limited knowledge but usually your first impression of what's wrong is the best one, be 100% sure that's not where the problem is before moving onto your next best guess.

[Little Al]

I'm confused. when I asked if it's draining from the bag just sitting there you said no but now your saying after letting the bike sit 2-3 days kicking it you hear the oil sloshing around in the crankcase.

so if it's draining from the bag and slowly filling up the crankcase I say you gotta go back and check all the parts that would allow the bag to drain into the motor:

feed side check valve
pressure relief valve
breather check valve

take a shot of green, smoke a cigarette, then go back at it. you KNOW it has to be one of just a few possibilities

[04customking]

Al, sorry for confusing what you were asking me. OK, it's all back together, never found a thing, until..... Put the oil in, thinking whether I have everything done when I look at something that NEVER occured to me. I believe, now stay with me, that the crankcase is not filling up while the bike is sitting. It's filling up while running. Remember, I've only had this running in the garage, not down the road so the amount of run time is not long. The cheap ass chrome oil lines I bought never came close to fitting with the exhaust I'm running so I had to "reshape" them alot. Look at these pics. The return line is bent to much near the tank severely restricting how much oil can return to the tank. Some surely does but I don't think it can keep up with the demand. I can't check for return in the tank because of the Paughco oil tank with filter. Does this seem like it makes sense? I'm thinking I need a new design line here. Please tell me it makes sense. The bent is, in my opinion, much worse than the pics show it. The line would have gone right through the center of the exhaust the way it came and I wanted to get it behind the pipe. To ambitious of a desire I think. Anyways, I'm not starting it until I can come up with a new line.

[Little Al]

you may be on to something there. I believe the scavenger side sucks oil out of the motor at a higher rate then the feed side pushes in, maybe not more pressure, but more volume. My thinking it would have to be that way or running the crankcase would always be filling up with oil. makes sense right?

you have fittings laying around to make up some hoses just to get unrestricted flow back to the tank? just as a way of troubleshooting the problem.

btw I'm in the process of installing those same cheap oil lines. I got the dope on the way the lines are supposed to be run (see my thread on it) but I'm having the same trouble with fitment. the case to tank line is too long and can't get it to fit right behind the (stock) rear header pipe and line up even with quite a few "custom" bends. I use a plumbers spring tubing bender to help prevent kinks. the bag to feed is too long too and I'm having the same difficulty there. Nothing even comes close for my external (oem style) oil filter even though I bought a line set specifically made for it. I almost want to give up and run hose but I'll give it another try tonight before I escape that way.

[04customking]

Well, I couldn't stand it. I figured that line was junk anyways so I took some clamps to it to try and open it up. Then I got the courage with nobody as a backup to take it down the road. Let's just say it's not my Road King. I've got plenty to do yet before that bike is going very far. In fact, I'm not sure I'm having fun anymore.

[jellero]

i'm following this thread as i have to deal with mine as soon as i can get my other bikes out of the way, clean the pan up and get it on the stand. that bike is incredibly clean by the way...j

[cosmiccowboy]

I'm by no means an expert on this but do you think oil is returning to your engine through the return or the vent line? I always thought the return line was closest to the seat post and the vent was on the outside nipple. Maybe it is syphoning back while the engine is off.

[panpered]

I think you have to separate the problem to the two potential sides and test each one.  If you can drain the case before starting this, that would be great.  Make sure the oil tank is full.  Drain the oil tank and measure the amount that comes out.  Pour it back in and don't run the bike.  Wait a day and drain and measure again and compare the amounts.  If you lost oil, there is only one way that can happen and you just follow the parts from the oil tank to the oil pump as others have already said.  If the oil tank did not drain down and you measure the same amount of oil the second time, it is time to move on to the scavenging part of the system.  I have the advantage of being able to open the top of my tank and look in while the bike is running and see a nice gush of oil coming back in.  I am not sure how you will solve that one except to fill the tank up full and route a hose off to a place where you can capture the oil and visibly see how much oil is returning while the bike is running.  Regardless, you can at least eliminate the draining past the check ball issue first.

I had a nightmare happen with my crankcase screen (this is the witches hat as some refer to it as).  When I put it together, the manual showed two cork seals.  When I put it in, it seem too tight to get the cap on, but I decided to just keep cranking on it until the cap seated.  Big mistake.  The cork seals swelled and in their over-compressed state, they actually closed up in the middle.  No oil to my heads and I stuck a valve.  I had to fix the valve and then I went with the later style that just uses a screen with a spring around it that holds the screen in place.

Don't lose faith.  I have been fighting hard starting for months.  I took the carb off several times and went over every thing in detail.  I made sure points were gapped, ignition timing spot on, everything.  Still hard to start.  This morning I decided I better check the solid lifters.  Bingo.  The guy that did my head work had the pushrods too tight and now that I fixed it, it runs like a dream.  Amazing how one thing I did not check cost me so much time.  That is why I am suggesting an approach that proves whether it is draining down.

[04customking]

Thanks for the insight. The lines are run correctly. Vent line is the closest to the seat post. I'm making new lines up tomorrow. I might need some time away from this thing to regain my composure. Took the road king out toady for awhile and that helped some. Thanks for the "clean" comment J. We'll see how long that lasts. Panpered, good ideas. I need to make the lines anyways so that will get done first and then I will more than likely do as you suggest. Thanks.

[chris haynes]

If the oil level in you tank is above the return line for the breather, oil will run into you engine.

[MBSKEAM]

 pull the line, cut it and use a piece of rubber tube and hose clamps to test and then dump the oil, put in 4 quarts of oil, then mark your dip stick with a file, put a file mark all the way around the full oil level

mbskeam

[jellero]

i went through trying to bend my oil lines and ended up
with the same situation. those plumber coils are for copper
and aluminum, not steel. my pipe was in the way and i had
to rig up what msbeam suggested for awhile, then found
a stock filter in shed and went to new lines and new 2 into
2 exhaust, problem solved. it's easier to change the big
part of bend than the top by the way (i found this out after
kinking the top).j

[Little Al]

Jim,

after struggling with those damn cheap lines this was the solution I came up with. it fairly neat and I'm satisfied.Eventually I'll get those fancy hose clamps with the covers. For sure there are no kinks or too sharp bends to impede the flow of oil

[04customking]

I was originally going to make new lines today but after a crappy night I've decided that bike needs a time out for awhile. Screw it. Al, on your generator thread I commented that you needed thre more days. You got the joke I hope.

[MBSKEAM]

or you can get these, these have been on my bike for a long time, had one get a leak, they sent me a new one for free.....very cool
the name is...

http://www.shocking.com/~dmusca/index.html

http://www.shocking.com/~dmusca/oil3.html

B: Part#  1145          $81.00
4 piece oil line for HD with wrap around oil tank in rigid frame for pan & knucklehead engines using stock oil filters mounted in front of the rear exhaust pipe. '36 - '57. WILL NOT work with regulator mounted on back of engine.


mbskeam

[04customking]

I can't make either of those links work.

[MBSKEAM]

when you cuser over the link does it high light and get big?
it works at my end....
try this as a search.....   M u s c a r e l l a ' s


mbskeam

[04customking]

Yes, it get's big, turns blue and when I click it takes a while and says internet explorer can not display the webpage. When I search what you said I get pizza places. Just tried Mozilla and it works. Damn IE

[Pzokes]

Do you have the check assembly in the lifter screen hole too? 

Do you wet sump enough to run out the crankcase breather every time?

How long are you running the bike?  Are you doing a lot of start-ups in the garage and no road miles yet?

[MBSKEAM]

internet explorer
and now you know why it sucks.....LOL
I use mozilla, screw Billy gates....LOL


mbskeam

[04customking]

Pzokes, no, I don't have anything in the lifter screen hole. I did have the whole set up but before I even got it running I read several places that with solids most just take it out. Another thing I want to check is the pump shut off. I ordered a new screw to shut it off because what the previous owner had was short and would not stop. You could scxrew it to the end of the threads. Now I read there are needles that go right to a point and some that are blunt. My new one is blunt. MAybe that where some of the oil is coming from because it does leak out the breather every time the bike is shut off. Maybe a spot the size of a half dollar. I didn't even look at the bike today so I'll check the oil tank tomorrow and see if and how much it's down. It's only been down the road once and for about two miles and back. All other running is in the garage.

[chris haynes]

If your your needle adjustment screw has been overtightened it will break the seat in the oil pump body. Then you have lost all control.

[04customking]

That's very possible for the dribbling I'm getting after shut off but not for the tank draining I am/was getting. I'm going to check the tank this morning. Very possible I have two things going on. I might have to live with the drip but the tank issue has to go.

[Little Al]

so how'd you make out after letting her sit saturday? I'll bet with a fresh go at it you worked it out?

[04customking]

It's still in "time out" Al. I haven't looked at it. All of a sudden I have no interest in that bike. So close but yet........

[ricochet]

I'd definately loose those lines and put some cheap rubber ones on there for now and either run them into a container or put clear lines on.  If it's not scavenging it could be plugged lines, sheared or missing key on the scavenging gear, or plugged internal passenges between the engine and the pump (wrong gasket or gasket goop).

Just for grins I'll tell you of a couple of stupid things done regarding the oil pump when I was drinking.

Put one of the locating dowel pins into the wrong hole on the case thereby plugging one of the passages.

Stuck and eraser end of a pencil into an braided oil feed line when removed from the pump.  Fit beautifuly to seal the line but when I pulled the pencil and rushed to re-install the line the eraser stayed in the line unnoticed.

ricochet

[Little Al]

Jim,

it's just discouragement & frustration setting in. you are way too close, to the solution and a great ride.

I just re-read through this entire thread, carefully.

I believe you have to start with making sure oil is being scavenged well. no matter how the oil is getting into the crankcase (properly or not) the scavanger side has to be able to overcome it and get it out. as has been said, pull the return line off the pump, run a hose into a can and make sure it's pumping out of the crankcase with volume. Once your confident that sides ok, then you know it has to be on the feed side. I think your going to find it's your hose/tubing on the return or the scavenger side of the pump. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Running her in the garage should decrease the sumping I think. I'm sure I've been told that at idle/low rpm's the scavenger should be draining the crankcase, not letting it fill up.

[chris haynes]

Lets get real here. Oil lines can't cause sumping. Overfilling the oil tank to a point that the oil is higher than the vent return will dump oil into the cases. A leaky check valve on the oil pump is the only other way.

[Little Al]

Well I know I'm probably one of the least knowledgeable guys here but I thought that any time, whatever the cause, the crankcase starts to fill with oil beyond the maybe 3-7 ounces of oil it should have, would be sumping. Please all, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to actually know the real deal.

[chris haynes]

It is real easy to tell if your engine is sumping. When you start it if it immediately starts puking oil out of the breather it has been sumping. The breather is inside your primary cover.

[Little Al]

Jim,

we haven't heard. what did you find?

[04customking]

Al, sorry it took so long to get back. I have been checking in here now and then but just haven't felt like getting into it. I put it back together and it seems fine now. Go figure. No sumping and after running in the garage I might get a drop or maybe two after sitting. I haven't had any interest in the bike since my last post. Yesterday I got the bug again and started messing with the new o ring chain I bought that's been sitting on the bench. I also have to space the inner primary out and I need to space the outer away from the inner for belt cooling like Craig suggested. I was scaring myself with my lack of interest. Thought I was losing it. It seem to be back and now I'll get this thing going.

[04customking]

Well, disregard the last post. Just started it after sitting for about 5 days and it blew about a cup full of oil on to my driveway. I hate this thing.

[chris haynes]

Well, disregard the last post. Just started it after sitting for about 5 days and it blew about a cup full of oil on to my driveway. I hate this thing.

Have you checked the oil level with the bike standing up?

[Pzokes]

Just a couple of things.  You bench tested the oil pump and it did not leak, so we should probably look elseware.

1. In 1949? and later Harley switched the oil lines at the tank so the vent line is the farthest from the seat post.  Look at some pictures of some stock bikes and you will see the crossed oil lines at the tank.  The idea was to get better oil circulation in the tank by having the oil return closer to the center of the tank.  I noticed in the pictures that you have posted that your lines are connected the older way.  What I can't see in the picture is if you are using a Paughco tank with filter, which would require the vent line to be closest to the seat post.  But, like Chris Haynes said, if your oil level is too high, it might be causing a problem.  In your case where you have 2" over fork tubes, there might be more lean when the bike is on the kickstand and the oil might be running back down the vent line.  How much free space do you have in the top of your oil tank where there is no oil?

2. In the post: "Scared to Ask, But What Oil", you mentioned that you are using 30 weight oil.  The way that I was taught to understand oil viscosity (and I may be wrong) is that 30 weight is twice as thick as 20 weight, and 40 weight is twice as thick as 30 weight, and 50 weight is twice as thick as 40 weight.  I think that your oil is too thin.

Would you start by taking a turkey baster or something, and drain some of the oil out of oil tank and try that.  If that doesn't work would you try switching to a heavier weight oil.

Your motorcycle is really a custom build, not just an assembling of stock parts.  With any new motorcycle build, there is a "settling in period".  That period is usually considered a year or about 5000 miles.  During that time you may find a bracket that's not right, wiring not right, or something else that didn't work out the way that you wanted.  After you get past this "settling in period" you will have a bike that you will really enjoy.  And yes, you may have to walk away from it a few times.  We own one bike that I had to do so many changes on it the first year, that my wife nicknamed it "Satan".  It was a combination of poor parts quality and work by poor quality machinists.  Hang in there.

[CraigArizona85248]

In Jim's case, he is using the Paughco oil tank with the oil filter mounted in the side of the tank.  For this oil tank you want the return line hooked to the fitting farthest away from the seat post.  This is the fitting that is plumbed into the oil filter.

That brings up a thought... Jim... what oil filter are you using with your Paughco tank?  If you use an oil filter with too high a filtration rate and too high a pressure relief spring pressure, you can get sumping because the pump is unable to return the oil to the tank.

I use a H-D filter from the shovel head days.  Part #63782-80

-Craig

[Pzokes]

Craig, I was revising my post about the oil tank as you were posting.

I made some other changes to that post too.

[04customking]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I appreciate them. Chris, I have checked the level and it's definitely low enough. I purposely have not filled the tank to the level it should be. That said, there is plenty of oil in there but not full. I have visually checked that. I did change the oil out to H-D 50 weight, that's what's all over my driveway now. The filter I'm using is the H-D 63782-80 that Craig uses. I'm very puzzled at how fast this seems to happen. I'm putting it in time out again. Have I ever mentioned how nice my Road King rides?

[jellero]

hate to say it here but my pans motivated me to buy a new road king.
i can relate to the frustration these bikes can cause, especially the oil leaks.
but when all is right there is nothing like riding a pan imo. i got mine out today after
over a year (knee injury) and it was great.
are you running synthetic oil by any chance? i had trans leaks
with synthetic. craigs thought on the filter is interesting... j

[Pzokes]

That oil pump backflow spring is supposed to release at something like 1 1/2 pounds.  Is yours the original spring, or if you replaced it, where did you buy it?

[04customking]

It's the spring that was in the pump, I don't know it's origin. You're thinking it's weaker than that?

[Pzokes]

Yes.  You've already lowered your oil level to  eliminate the possibility of the oil coming from the return or vent lines.  A gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs.  You probably don't even have half a gallon in the oil tank, but oil is heavier than water so there is a weight bearing down on that bypass spring.  What we don't know is, what is the weight and what is the pressure of the spring.  I think that I would try changing the spring to see if that stops the leak. 

I'm a big proponent of zero clearancing the end play on the oil pump gears.  I use the gaskets to provide end clearance and use the thinest gaskets that I can find to keep the pump gear end play to a minimum.  I also port the pump by smoothing the entrance and exit holes.  I think that the zero clearancing lets less bypassing around the ends of the gears, and I think the porting provides a smoother flow of oil into and out of the pump. 

If all else fails with the cast iron pump, there is still a solution.  Convert to the early aluminum pump, or an S & S pump.  They use a heavier bypass spring because they have bigger gears to overcome the increased bypass spring poundage.

[chris haynes]

Yes.  You've already lowered your oil level to  eliminate the possibility of the oil coming from the return or vent lines.  A gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs.

Actually oil is lighter than water. That is why it floats on water. 30WT motor oil weighs 6.8 pounds per gallon.

[Pzokes]

I stand corrected, yes oil is lighter than water. That was a real brain fart on my part.  Thanks for letting us know the weight of 30 weight.

I think that elevation also adds to pressure.  We could say that we have aproximately 1 ft elevation between the bottom of the oil tank and the top of the oil pump.  So would we have somewhere around 1/4 of 6.8lbs at 1 ft elevation?  That would be one quart of oil (1.7 lbs) at 1 ft elevation (whatever the elevation adds to it).  We are already over the 1.5 lbs of the backflow spring pressure  before we factor elevation in.  The only formula that I can find for pressure for elevation is what the plumbers use to test their drain systems.  They use a 4" pipe, 10 ft high to get 5 psi.  The formula they use is (height in feet)X(diameter squared in inches)X(.7854).

I know that the one quart figure I used is a random figure and less that actual tank capacity.  Does the Paughco oil tank, with integral filter, have a higher capacity than the original oil tank which might cause more pressure, exceeding the original cast iron oil pump design?   

Maybe there's something else that I'm not seeing. 

[chris haynes]

What he is not seeing, or believing not to see is that the problem is in his oil pump and nowhere else.

[CraigArizona85248]

I can't think of any other cause either at this point.  Maybe a cracked pump body or seat.

Jim, you mentioned that you tested with water.  How did you do that?  If you poured water down into the cavity on top of the check ball, I don't think that's a valid test.  Your oil is coming from the other side of the check ball and is pushing up against the ball and spring.

-Craig

[Pzokes]

I agree that the problem is in the oil pump.  I do think that it is on the pressure side.

I hadn't considered a cracked pump body.

I would not dare to use either of two heavier bypass springs that are designed for the later aluminum pumps that have larger gears.

[04customking]

Craig, I did mention testing with water. All I was attempting to see was if the ball and seat would let water pass by. Very half assed "test". I did just have the water on the wrong side but figured a bad ball and seat would leak either way. I didn't see any cracks of any kind and I think it would be pretty effident if all that 60 weight oil leaked past it. I will pull it apart here again soon but I can't imagine what I'm going to find that I didn't find before.
Chris, I agree with you but can't see the problem.
Pzokes, I wouldn't just put an aluminum pump spring in there. The spring looks like the correct spring. By that I mean it's not just some cut spring that someone had laying around. I'll take pictures this time, whenever that is. Thanks for the thoughts guys.

[fourthgear]

There is one other thing that could leak through to the case compartment , the shaft bushing in the case for the pump drive gear shaft and or shaft its self. Long shot but worth looking into . If you think the check valve spring is weak , you can shim it with washers in the cap to load it up a little.( just watch & keep track of them there washers )

[04customking]

Ok, I pulled it apart. I still don't see anything but it must be the seats. I'm going to take it to work tomorrow and try to machine the seats in. I've heard youy don't want to do that but the burnisher didn't do anything so at this point I'm going to try it. A careful set-up and a good sharp cutter and it ought to do it just fine. I always kind of wondered why most were against machining it. Anyways, here's some pics of what I have. In one pic there appears to be a crack but it's not, just a mark.

[04customking]

[MBSKEAM]

interesting.....
lighter springs and diffrent end plugs















I see a hole that yours does not have, in the small groove about 1/2 way up

here is mine never had a sumping problem....

unless you count the time my fuel tank, 1 plus gallons went into my bottom end....LOL

mbskeam

thats not your wifes new white towell is it?......LOL

[04customking]

Yea, mine doesn't have the smal hole like yours. Not sure what it would do. I have to go to my dealer tomorrow for new gaskets and I'm going to get new springs just so I know what I have. They are exceptional for having the old stuff. They've always had whatever I needed in stock. How many of you can say that about your dealers? The girl behind the counter is the owners daughter, about 30 I'd say, and she can rattle off the numbers without even looking. I think she learned to read from the parts catalogs. Very sharp and a cutie too. I feel pretty confident that I can get real nice seats in this pump and with new springs I actually feel good about ending this problem. Should have done this the first time. Oh yea, there is no wife so the towels are all mine. The first two wives didn't like it though. I don't understand it.

[MBSKEAM]

there is no wife

I'm green with envyLOL

mbskeam

[Little Al]

Well Jim, I'm glad to see you're final back at her after that extended "time out".

and I hear ya on the wives, towels and such. I never could understand their reluctance either. The new girlfriend don't mind at all, but I think it's a ploy. I don't know what she has in mind, but i figure that as long as I don't marry her my kitchen will safely stay my shop. lol

[04customking]

Ok, we're trying it again. I cut new seats into the pump. Lots of porosity in that cast iron but I think I got it good. Had to drop them about .020". Got a new spring for the check valve from the dealer. The new one is the same weak type spring but is about 5/16" longer than the one I had. Cleaned everything up and started it. Warmed it up good and shut it off. Now we'll wait and see.

[Pzokes]

Here's a good article on lapping a later aluminum pump checkball seat using a Evo pushrod for the lapping tool.  Sometimes even the later pumps aren't perfect.

http://bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=87