It's sumping

[Pzokes]

Do you have the check assembly in the lifter screen hole too? 

Do you wet sump enough to run out the crankcase breather every time?

How long are you running the bike?  Are you doing a lot of start-ups in the garage and no road miles yet?

[MBSKEAM]

internet explorer
and now you know why it sucks.....LOL
I use mozilla, screw Billy gates....LOL


mbskeam

[04customking]

Pzokes, no, I don't have anything in the lifter screen hole. I did have the whole set up but before I even got it running I read several places that with solids most just take it out. Another thing I want to check is the pump shut off. I ordered a new screw to shut it off because what the previous owner had was short and would not stop. You could scxrew it to the end of the threads. Now I read there are needles that go right to a point and some that are blunt. My new one is blunt. MAybe that where some of the oil is coming from because it does leak out the breather every time the bike is shut off. Maybe a spot the size of a half dollar. I didn't even look at the bike today so I'll check the oil tank tomorrow and see if and how much it's down. It's only been down the road once and for about two miles and back. All other running is in the garage.

[chris haynes]

If your your needle adjustment screw has been overtightened it will break the seat in the oil pump body. Then you have lost all control.

[04customking]

That's very possible for the dribbling I'm getting after shut off but not for the tank draining I am/was getting. I'm going to check the tank this morning. Very possible I have two things going on. I might have to live with the drip but the tank issue has to go.

[Little Al]

so how'd you make out after letting her sit saturday? I'll bet with a fresh go at it you worked it out?

[04customking]

It's still in "time out" Al. I haven't looked at it. All of a sudden I have no interest in that bike. So close but yet........

[ricochet]

I'd definately loose those lines and put some cheap rubber ones on there for now and either run them into a container or put clear lines on.  If it's not scavenging it could be plugged lines, sheared or missing key on the scavenging gear, or plugged internal passenges between the engine and the pump (wrong gasket or gasket goop).

Just for grins I'll tell you of a couple of stupid things done regarding the oil pump when I was drinking.

Put one of the locating dowel pins into the wrong hole on the case thereby plugging one of the passages.

Stuck and eraser end of a pencil into an braided oil feed line when removed from the pump.  Fit beautifuly to seal the line but when I pulled the pencil and rushed to re-install the line the eraser stayed in the line unnoticed.

ricochet

[Little Al]

Jim,

it's just discouragement & frustration setting in. you are way too close, to the solution and a great ride.

I just re-read through this entire thread, carefully.

I believe you have to start with making sure oil is being scavenged well. no matter how the oil is getting into the crankcase (properly or not) the scavanger side has to be able to overcome it and get it out. as has been said, pull the return line off the pump, run a hose into a can and make sure it's pumping out of the crankcase with volume. Once your confident that sides ok, then you know it has to be on the feed side. I think your going to find it's your hose/tubing on the return or the scavenger side of the pump. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Running her in the garage should decrease the sumping I think. I'm sure I've been told that at idle/low rpm's the scavenger should be draining the crankcase, not letting it fill up.

[chris haynes]

Lets get real here. Oil lines can't cause sumping. Overfilling the oil tank to a point that the oil is higher than the vent return will dump oil into the cases. A leaky check valve on the oil pump is the only other way.

[Little Al]

Well I know I'm probably one of the least knowledgeable guys here but I thought that any time, whatever the cause, the crankcase starts to fill with oil beyond the maybe 3-7 ounces of oil it should have, would be sumping. Please all, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to actually know the real deal.

[chris haynes]

It is real easy to tell if your engine is sumping. When you start it if it immediately starts puking oil out of the breather it has been sumping. The breather is inside your primary cover.

[Little Al]

Jim,

we haven't heard. what did you find?

[04customking]

Al, sorry it took so long to get back. I have been checking in here now and then but just haven't felt like getting into it. I put it back together and it seems fine now. Go figure. No sumping and after running in the garage I might get a drop or maybe two after sitting. I haven't had any interest in the bike since my last post. Yesterday I got the bug again and started messing with the new o ring chain I bought that's been sitting on the bench. I also have to space the inner primary out and I need to space the outer away from the inner for belt cooling like Craig suggested. I was scaring myself with my lack of interest. Thought I was losing it. It seem to be back and now I'll get this thing going.

[04customking]

Well, disregard the last post. Just started it after sitting for about 5 days and it blew about a cup full of oil on to my driveway. I hate this thing.

[chris haynes]

Well, disregard the last post. Just started it after sitting for about 5 days and it blew about a cup full of oil on to my driveway. I hate this thing.

Have you checked the oil level with the bike standing up?

[Pzokes]

Just a couple of things.  You bench tested the oil pump and it did not leak, so we should probably look elseware.

1. In 1949? and later Harley switched the oil lines at the tank so the vent line is the farthest from the seat post.  Look at some pictures of some stock bikes and you will see the crossed oil lines at the tank.  The idea was to get better oil circulation in the tank by having the oil return closer to the center of the tank.  I noticed in the pictures that you have posted that your lines are connected the older way.  What I can't see in the picture is if you are using a Paughco tank with filter, which would require the vent line to be closest to the seat post.  But, like Chris Haynes said, if your oil level is too high, it might be causing a problem.  In your case where you have 2" over fork tubes, there might be more lean when the bike is on the kickstand and the oil might be running back down the vent line.  How much free space do you have in the top of your oil tank where there is no oil?

2. In the post: "Scared to Ask, But What Oil", you mentioned that you are using 30 weight oil.  The way that I was taught to understand oil viscosity (and I may be wrong) is that 30 weight is twice as thick as 20 weight, and 40 weight is twice as thick as 30 weight, and 50 weight is twice as thick as 40 weight.  I think that your oil is too thin.

Would you start by taking a turkey baster or something, and drain some of the oil out of oil tank and try that.  If that doesn't work would you try switching to a heavier weight oil.

Your motorcycle is really a custom build, not just an assembling of stock parts.  With any new motorcycle build, there is a "settling in period".  That period is usually considered a year or about 5000 miles.  During that time you may find a bracket that's not right, wiring not right, or something else that didn't work out the way that you wanted.  After you get past this "settling in period" you will have a bike that you will really enjoy.  And yes, you may have to walk away from it a few times.  We own one bike that I had to do so many changes on it the first year, that my wife nicknamed it "Satan".  It was a combination of poor parts quality and work by poor quality machinists.  Hang in there.

[CraigArizona85248]

In Jim's case, he is using the Paughco oil tank with the oil filter mounted in the side of the tank.  For this oil tank you want the return line hooked to the fitting farthest away from the seat post.  This is the fitting that is plumbed into the oil filter.

That brings up a thought... Jim... what oil filter are you using with your Paughco tank?  If you use an oil filter with too high a filtration rate and too high a pressure relief spring pressure, you can get sumping because the pump is unable to return the oil to the tank.

I use a H-D filter from the shovel head days.  Part #63782-80

-Craig

[Pzokes]

Craig, I was revising my post about the oil tank as you were posting.

I made some other changes to that post too.

[04customking]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I appreciate them. Chris, I have checked the level and it's definitely low enough. I purposely have not filled the tank to the level it should be. That said, there is plenty of oil in there but not full. I have visually checked that. I did change the oil out to H-D 50 weight, that's what's all over my driveway now. The filter I'm using is the H-D 63782-80 that Craig uses. I'm very puzzled at how fast this seems to happen. I'm putting it in time out again. Have I ever mentioned how nice my Road King rides?

[jellero]

hate to say it here but my pans motivated me to buy a new road king.
i can relate to the frustration these bikes can cause, especially the oil leaks.
but when all is right there is nothing like riding a pan imo. i got mine out today after
over a year (knee injury) and it was great.
are you running synthetic oil by any chance? i had trans leaks
with synthetic. craigs thought on the filter is interesting... j

[Pzokes]

That oil pump backflow spring is supposed to release at something like 1 1/2 pounds.  Is yours the original spring, or if you replaced it, where did you buy it?

[04customking]

It's the spring that was in the pump, I don't know it's origin. You're thinking it's weaker than that?

[Pzokes]

Yes.  You've already lowered your oil level to  eliminate the possibility of the oil coming from the return or vent lines.  A gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs.  You probably don't even have half a gallon in the oil tank, but oil is heavier than water so there is a weight bearing down on that bypass spring.  What we don't know is, what is the weight and what is the pressure of the spring.  I think that I would try changing the spring to see if that stops the leak. 

I'm a big proponent of zero clearancing the end play on the oil pump gears.  I use the gaskets to provide end clearance and use the thinest gaskets that I can find to keep the pump gear end play to a minimum.  I also port the pump by smoothing the entrance and exit holes.  I think that the zero clearancing lets less bypassing around the ends of the gears, and I think the porting provides a smoother flow of oil into and out of the pump. 

If all else fails with the cast iron pump, there is still a solution.  Convert to the early aluminum pump, or an S & S pump.  They use a heavier bypass spring because they have bigger gears to overcome the increased bypass spring poundage.

[chris haynes]

Yes.  You've already lowered your oil level to  eliminate the possibility of the oil coming from the return or vent lines.  A gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs.

Actually oil is lighter than water. That is why it floats on water. 30WT motor oil weighs 6.8 pounds per gallon.