I am trying to write an EFI general tuning guide....

[whittlebeast]

Here is where it is at this point. (still a work in process)

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Here is a list of subjects I still want to take on.  Are there any any other combinations or subjects that you guys think I should try to cover?

Fuel tuning with narrow bands and open loop
Fuel tuning with narrow bands and closed loop without Long Term Fuel Trims
Fuel tuning with narrow bands and closed loop with Long Term Fuel Trims

Fuel tuning with wide bands and open loop
Fuel tuning with wide bands and closed loop without Long Term Fuel Trims
Fuel tuning with wide bands and closed loop with Long Term Fuel Trims

Collecting data
Filtering out data
Extrapolating VE Tables
VE Table smoothing

Tuning with live autotuning on Dyno or street
Closed loop on race motors
Data rates
AE tuning and why is it even needed
DE tuning
How to figure out if you need Alpha-N tuning

[masstch]

Please hurry!! I need this!!
Thank you for taking this on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[98fxstc]

I read Basic Tuning 101 a long time ago
Very useful for explaining basic ideas

Look forward to Tuning 102 ?

Would like to do more with Megalogviewer but I have TTS and there is still no capability to load the late DM3 files
Big numbers not able to use it

[Karl H.]

 

[Phat Black]

I'm glad to see you're taking the time to do this.  There are a lot of people that would enjoy tuning their own bike if they just had a better understanding of what they were doing and how to go about making improvements.   I for one am one those people.  HTT is an awesome site full of some of the best knowledge and experienced people that are always willing to help ... But sometimes it can make your head swim trying to piece together basic tuning from all the different discussions.   Having it spelled out in a single pdf would make it a lot more convenient to refer back to something.    Thank you for your efforts and I'm really looking forward to the finished product.   

[whittlebeast]

Please post any general questions here that you would like to see covered.  Questions/subjects that come to mind on those head swimming threads but always seem to get squashed in the bickering.

Note that this is not going to be "Harley only" type document, but there are very few truly different things.

Andy

[Karl H.]

Andy

It may not be the focus of your writeup. But I'm interested in the AFF (LTFT) strategy of the ECM in the very common case were there are closed loop and open loop areas in parallel. How does the learned AFF of the closed loop area influence the open loop VE values?

Karl

[Phat Black]

Andy, hopefully this weekend I can set down and read through what you have so far.   I don't want to throw a bunch of stuff at you that you've already taken the time to explain. 

[whittlebeast]

Karl, that question is somewhat unique to Harley, but I may get into how to spot the patterns of long term corrections that will cause unexpected results somewhere else in the tune.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

do I dare mention it.. EGR/CDE

[Karl H.]

Andy, I'm quite sure that any ECM (Delphi, Bosch...) has a built in strategy to transfer VE corrections found in the closed loop area into the open loop area (at least partially). It enables the engine to safely deal with unexpected changes in Ethanol content which can lead to an overly lean mixture.

Karl

[whittlebeast]

CDE/EGR....  is really the biggest chunk of what makes up the basic reason for a VE table.  How much of the previous combustion cycle is left behind when  the exhaust valve actually closes and a new fresh gulp of air and fuel try to enter into the cylinder.

Picture you have a glass full of Coka-Cola, you pour out 90 percent of the Coke and pour in as much water as it takes to bring the glass up to full again.  Will the new mixture be 100% clear water?  No it will be cloudy with the coloring from the Coke left behind and mixed with the new fresh water.

That exhaust that never makes it out of the chamber mixes the same way.  That left behind exhaust has almost no oxygen to burn with the fuel ...  Tuning software that allows the VE table to be set from 0 to say 200, do not need this CDE/EGR stuff at all.  It is simply part of the VE Correction.  That is what a VE is.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

 

but i meant put that in your manual somewhere.  like maybe in the preface in 64pt red bold font size!  lol

[Olie]

Spark/Timing stuff.

[rbabos]

Tuning manuals are a dime a dozen. None address the pitfalls of self tuning or how to address problems. Good dyno tuners know this stuff or should.   Now if you want to get serious on help stuff, that actually helps DIYR tuners, street tuning. Very few will spew any worthwhile solutions to problems some of use experience or in any details as to why.  Things like knowing when to go open loop. Knowing when even 100% integrators can't be relied on to give a good running engine due to the wrong chosen afr for that build. How to diagnose what the engine actually want's for fuel when integrators are 100% but the engine still runs like crap, usually low end light loads. What raising and lowering timing does in this area to a specific afr.  As mentioned, how to collect ve data on the road because I can create all kinds of number extremes but only one will be worth pursuing from there. Knowing which one is key.  How IAT temps, humidity and temp effect ve collection when shooting for the middle of the road tables that work well in all conditions. What to accept and what not too.  Pit falls of running adaptive in wildly changing ambient conditions from day to day. How to collect low end ve data on an exhaust with reversion or poor low end sampling,  prior to placing this area in to open loop, then testing for what the happy afr it likes based on that ve table in the low end. Knowing when to blend the ve or leave it as is.  That can cause some real bad issues if not careful. I seldom blend other then the odd cell and only if there is enough new data in surrounding cells.
Just some of the stuff I've learned and dealt with to achieve a good street tune. Sadly unless the bike is stock and with good O2 sampling, one needs to dig deeper for results. The TTS and PV manuals is only a starting point, seldom reaching the desired result, depending on ones expectations for a final tune.
Oh, I agree Andy, EGR is a crock of  with minimal effects.  It seldom really fixes anything caused from things mentioned above.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Oh, I agree Andy, EGR is a crock of  with minimal effects.  It seldom really fixes anything caused from things mentioned above.Ron

WOW how dare you.   

[whittlebeast]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

[strokerjlk]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

[rbabos]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

i agree that it is what it is. but dyno or street tuning ,conditions are conditions.
because it is on a dyno makes it no less of a tune.in fact you are able to get a better tune on a dyno for the obvious reasons. so I was just getting it out there before Andy goes on another one of his dyno bashing spews.

[rbabos]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

i agree that it is what it is. but dyno or street tuning ,conditions are conditions.
because it is on a dyno makes it no less of a tune.in fact you are able to get a better tune on a dyno for the obvious reasons. so I was just getting it out there before Andy goes on another one of his dyno bashing spews.

No question a dyno gives a better tune as long as the operator is competent. While there are some really good ones on this forum, there is a lot of scum out there that just take your money let alone try and simulate all running conditions. Some are hard to do and if not dealt with can cause ill running in those areas on the street. Then it 's time to whip out the scatter plots or trial and error to find out why.
Ron

[Olie]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves. I know this goes against the professional tuners and their shops as this takes away business but reality is more and more people are wanting to DIY. I am one for example. Going past the basics giving enough information for a DIYer to make modifications to their bikes then start dialing the tune is what the new consumers want. I too rely on people seeking out my profession and in turn I make my money but the more and more people educate themselves, the more they will lean towards handling their issues before seeking professional help. I'm OK with that. There will always be a market, it will simply change a bit with advancements. If the "professionals" don't change along with the mainstream then they feel it "taking away" their livelihood. Just my two cents and seeing I'm on leave right now and started drinking WAY TOO early today, probably not worth the two cents anyway.

[strokerjlk]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves.

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

[sfmichael]

   good topic

[whittlebeast]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy