What are the Symptons of Trap Door bearing Trouble?

[masstch]

2010 Ultra 113" 125/125 (est)  I'm getting some weirdness that has me wondering if I've got trans or trapdoor problems. I do run the bike hard.
I recently stripped yet another belt. The belt was *tight* even after stripping. When the belt was stripped (about a foot of it) the bike rode fine except when accelerating somewhat hard, there would be jerkiness that I assumed was the belt/sprocket slipping. This was a weird sensation that felt like someone was tapping my rear brake. The bike would feel like it was 'hitting a hard spot', maybe three or four times in second or third gear. 
I changed the belt and set it way tight, under 3/8" but I'm still getting a version of the jerking...more after riding for a bit. Happening at lower load, just part throttle in lower gears, none at full throttle and not obvious at higher gears.
The transmission is "literally" the only part of the bike that I haven't been into. I can't afford a DD7 but I could do their trapdoor... but I need some input.I have a big ride event coming up in ten days

[vafatboy1]

I got nothin, but to clarify something.  Did this issue start at the same time as the belt stripping?  Nothing before?

Any bits of metal on the transmission drain plug? 

[Buffalo]

If it where mine, I think I'd be pulling the tranny top cover to have a look see.  There have been some cases of the new 6 speeds "stripping" the teeth from 2 or 3 gear sets or both when owner admits to "driving hard". The skipping you feel may be signs of impending gear failure.
I helped a friend redo his 2011 tranny with 43K klms, obvious side movement caused wear, opening up the clearances. His did not jump gears, but got notchy and noisy, and hard to find neutral. We used a Jims rebuild kit with his door. That eliminated the play, neutral easy to find, more precise shifting in all gears. The JIMS door has much larger bearings and a beefier plate. Be sure to run gear oil in the tranny, not engine oil. fwiw Buffalo

[Admiral Akbar]

If the belt is fine, it's in the tranny..

[masstch]

I got nothin, but to clarify something.  Did this issue start at the same time as the belt stripping?  Nothing before?

Any bits of metal on the transmission drain plug?

Back in September I launched it way too hard from a stop and stripped the belt. I it lasted through the task at hand (won) but you could feel it slipping at max acceleration and chirping. After replacing the belt, no symptoms, no issues for 5000 miles.
A couple of weeks ago I stripped another. Yes I was riding it hard, but no massive launches, no expectation that I was nearing the belt's limits. I was running it through the gears, but unlike the September event, I wasn't even aware of when it happened, only that I started to notice some slipping/surging/ and chirping.
After changing the belt last Friday evening it seemed fine. The last two evenings i rode a little to try to save a log file (different thread) and both evenings I noticed this strange dragging effect, both times after riding a half-hour or so, more on Thursday than on Wednesday.
Notably, when a belt was stripped (I've never *broken* one) the symptom is "slipping" but this new symptom is a dragging/binding that slows the bike and engine rpm for just a fraction of a second... exactly like tapping the brake while not letting off the throttle.
No noise.
The drain plug had powdered metal on it, no pieces or granules that you could feel, just superfine steel powder.

If it where mine, I think I'd be pulling the tranny top cover to have a look see.  There have been some cases of the new 6 speeds "stripping" the teeth from 2 or 3 gear sets or both when owner admits to "driving hard". The skipping you feel may be signs of impending gear failure.
I helped a friend redo his 2011 tranny with 43K klms, obvious side movement caused wear, opening up the clearances. His did not jump gears, but got notchy and noisy, and hard to find neutral. We used a Jims rebuild kit with his door. That eliminated the play, neutral easy to find, more precise shifting in all gears. The JIMS door has much larger bearings and a beefier plate. Be sure to run gear oil in the tranny, not engine oil. fwiw Buffalo

At lunchtime I will run home and pull the top. I have seen quite a few pics online of these Cruise Drives that have shucked all the teeth from second and third. I certainly hope that's not it. (anybody have a deal on a tranny?)

The symptom is not a 'slip' or 'skip' but a drag, just exactly like tapping the brake.

[strokerjlk]

check your primary chain too.

[vafatboy1]

Just throwing it out there. If it feels like the brake is being tapped, don't rule out something in the braking system. ABS malfunction??

I don't know, but worth ruling out.

[Admiral Akbar]

It almost sounds like you stripped another belt.. Bet the teeth are still there but a section has come loose.. What happens is the teeth bunch up and try to lock the rear wheel..  I had this problem after a dyno run on a bike where the belt was misaligned. For inspection, try to pull the teeth away from the belt backing..  They come loose.. In my case I have about 6 to 10 teeth separate from the belt.. Could feel a light bump under light load but heavier load it was like tapping the brake.. If this is the case there are bunch of things you need to look at.. Also I'd bet this would kill the MGD bearing in short order.

[masstch]

check your primary chain too.

Use more words? Would you think broken or binding? I've had the primary open so many times that I'm way too familiar with it. I had it apart just a week ago andfound nothing notable about it, but then, I'll admit not actually inspecting it. I do know that it didn't appear to be binding at all.

Just throwing it out there. If it feels like the brake is being tapped, don't rule out something in the braking system. ABS malfunction??

I don't know, but worth ruling out.

I've had the same thought, but not a clue how to test this. I did at one point just lightly ride my foot on the rear brake just to see if there was anything to feel while the symptom occurred and felt nada. I would think that if there was an ABS application that the pedal would react somehow.

[Just Nick]

Second and Third are the weak points on these cruse drive transmissions ask me how I know I striped every tooth off of 2/3/4 gears on my stock trans. and every other 07 up trans gear issue I have seen at my shop has been with 2/3 gears. Just from what you are saying I would be looking at the trans maybe its not the gears but with there being a fine metal powder on your plug I think maybe the main drive gear bearing is going out it is also a issue with these cruse drives that bearing has plastic cages in it and there is not other option out for it still only the oem part # 8967.

[Admiral Akbar]

If the ABS was self actuating, wouldn't the ABS light come on?

[masstch]

It almost sounds like you stripped another belt.. Bet the teeth are still there but a section has come loose.. What happens is the teeth bunch up and try to lock the rear wheel..  I had this problem after a dyno run on a bike where the belt was misaligned. For inspection, try to pull the teeth away from the belt backing..  They come loose.. In my case I have about 6 to 10 teeth separate from the belt.. Could feel a light bump under light load but heavier load it was like tapping the brake.. If this is the case there are bunch of things you need to look at.. Also I'd bet this would kill the MGD bearing in short order.

All good points. I did give the belt a good look on the lift last night, including dragging my fingers over all the teeth while turning it. I didn't find any loose or missing (further inspection to come). I'm wondering if a bearing may be seizing. This (even momentary) seizure could certainly strip a belt *possibly* without the seizure being noticed. I've seen axles, driveshafts, differentials trashed due to a bearing seizure that occurred in an adjacent unit.

Second and Third are the weak points on these cruse drive transmissions ask me how I know I striped every tooth off of 2/3/4 gears on my stock trans. and every other 07 up trans gear issue I have seen at my shop has been with 2/3 gears. Just from what you are saying I would be looking at the trans maybe its not the gears but with there being a fine metal powder on your plug I think maybe the main drive gear bearing is going out it is also a issue with these cruse drives that bearing has plastic cages in it and there is not other option out for it still only the oem part # 8967.

Definitely would fit, I think.

If the ABS was self actuating, wouldn't the ABS light come on?

Good point. I should check for DTCs as well.

The thing is, since whatever is happening occurs under light to moderate acceleration, it *could* be a tune issue. The engine certainly doesn't sound like it's the issue, it sounds like a normally running engine that is seeing little extra loads like a tapping brake. I WAS logging at the time and you smart guys maybe can 'see' something in the log? In the last part of the ride, in first/second/third gears at part throttle.
Linked here:https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9jpca9lurkl47x/log0112.csv?dl=0
[/quote]

The drain plug looked bad but that wasn't chips, just powder. I ran a bigger magnet through it and got zilch.

[strokerjlk]

check your primary chain too.

Use more words? Would you think broken or binding? I've had the primary open so many times that I'm way too familiar with it. I had it apart just a week ago andfound nothing notable about it, but then, I'll admit not actually inspecting it. I do know that it didn't appear to be binding at all.

Just throwing it out there. If it feels like the brake is being tapped, don't rule out something in the braking system. ABS malfunction??

I don't know, but worth ruling out.

I've had the same thought, but not a clue how to test this. I did at one point just lightly ride my foot on the rear brake just to see if there was anything to feel while the symptom occurred and felt nada. I would think that if there was an ABS application that the pedal would react somehow.

loose or binding.
if you had it off a week ago ,it's probably ok. although whenever i have a problem pop up,I always think about what I have most recently changed or worked on.

[masstch]

loose or binding.
if you had it off a week ago ,it's probably ok. although whenever i have a problem pop up,I always think about what I have most recently changed or worked on.

I agree... but I've had this one apart so many times... New style comp/Bandit/inner clutch bearing, then shortly after, back in for belt/lifters
Ran home at lunch and tried to get access and take pics.
Bloody little to see, of course.







A short vid for sound

https://vimeo.com/169280760

[Admiral Akbar]

Arrow stuff looks suspect.. Yeah, you can see much from the top cover of the 6 speeder..

[attach=0,msg1052731]

[masstch]

I was racing to get it opened up on my lunch break (I was a bit late) I didn't even look at it, just took pics and the vid and ran out the door.

The video indicates more noise than i would expect, but I don't have recent memory to reference. The phone also magnifies the sound, so not really useful I guess.
I'm convince that I'm going into it to change the bearings. I have a big ride next Friday so I have to hustle. I would LOVE to put a Baker door on this but I can't get my hands on one in  time. Baker can't ship until Monday MICHIGAN and I'm in East TX.
Baker wasn't able to ship until next week and couldn't tell me any dealer who might have one...

looks like I'm going to just do the bearings only.

You guys know anyone who has a 487-6 laying around?

[masstch]

I'm goin' in



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[FSG]

I dont like the look of that clutch pushrod

[attach=0]

[HighLiner]

487-6...is that the part# off the Baker Street door?

[masstch]

Yes, the chrome one.


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[strokerjlk]

I dont like the look of that clutch pushrod

[attach=0]

good catch. throw out bearing.

[masstch]

Yes, the chrome one.


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[strokerjlk]

I dont like the look of that clutch pushrod

[attach=0]

good catch. throw out bearing.

meant to use a question mark...throw out bearing ?

[masstch]

Well, it's apart. I found something, but it isn't much.
The MDG bearing shows wear but not severe or "failure". The door bearings aren't out yet but the overwhelming feeling so far is that I have not found a smoking gun.
The only really significant find is a few shavings of aluminum stuck in fourth gear. Only a few, and only aluminum.

[BUBBIE]

Thought I asked you? But didn't see a post here...

Saying you ride HARD...

Have you ever looked at the rubbers in the compensator rear sprocket? The "feel like you said earlier,  slippage of the belt or jumping a gear tooth" Might lead to that being worn out.

Not sure IF you have that in your bike but I do in Mine,  09 King,  so you must in yours...

signed....BUBBIE