What are the Symptons of Trap Door bearing Trouble?

[Buffalo]

Hundreds have converted to the 30 tooth tranny pulley, but few likely ride like you do. I'll go along with those that say the 30 tooths smaller diameter may inflict a overstressing of the belt, especially when romped on!!
My 01 Dyna has had chain drive since the T124 install in July 07. I used EK 530ZZZ chain, a Drag rear 48 too the sprocket, and a Baker 24 tooth front. That gave me an overall ratio of 2.88/1. thats 11% taller gearing than stock and the exact ratio of the new 06 Dyna 6 speed.
I just replaced the chain and sprockets with 50,000 miles on them. The chain failed (did not break) at the master link. I noticed a ticking noise coming from the rear, thats when I found the master link rollers had failed. I had run up to 125 mph just minutes before.
I used Maxima Chain Lube infrequently, usually before a 6-7000mile trip, otherwise pretty much ignored it. I have no idea how many times I shifted a 6000rpm, but it is in the 1000's. I also ran this bike over 150 mph dozens of times since 07.
I'm now using the EK equivelant chain (11,100 tensile strength), a new Drag rear and a PBI front, same ratios as before. Confident I can go another 50K without worrying if my driveline will let me down, no matter how I use it.  fwiw Buffalo

[masstch]

Thanks for that. There's some good info there.
I'm going to chain at some point, only money in the way just now.
The cushdrive and the swingarm mod really drive the cost up, so it will be a while.
I'm actually hoping that someone will have a used take off setup somewhere along the line.

[Buffalo]

The EK 530ZVX3 is the latest chain, still rated same as the old #530ZZZ chain. PB Racing makes a beautiful billet sprocket holder and can supply steel sprockets. PBI makes several sizes of front sprockets and offsets att reasonable prices. Not a cheap cnversion with procket hub, but it only gets bought once, sprockets and chain from there out. And almost impossible to break. fwiw Buffalo

[masstch]

I feel I need to follow this up. The belt that was installed while in Missouri has now been destroyed by my riding. The belt has 2769 miles. I had it apart to install a new tire just last week.  Each time I ride, I feel the belt for tightness before riding. I felt normal. I was playing around on it (read hitting on it a couple of times pretty hard) and stripped some teeth. The only indicator was what felt like something banging on the underside of the floorboards... a really weird sensation. I couldn't feel it anywhere else on the bike but it happened at the same speed each time. Really didn't recognize the floorboard bumping as belt related. I know, you'd think I would be an expert by now.
I got it up on the lift, expecting bearing trouble, found no bearing issues but looked at the belt I saw that one tooth was gone, two were flopping around and a few more are cracked, but still in place. The outer band of the belt was intact but now 'loose' rather than normal. The cam adjusters are still aligned with the marking I put there last week on the tire change, yet the belt is loose now. I'll be damned if I can see how. Trans case bore is fine. Cush Drive is fine. Pulley alignment is fine. To make sure I wasn't missing some other issue, I used a blade to carefully remove the two teeth that were flopping so that they wouldn't cause more trouble. I then took it for a ride and sure enough, the banging was gone and it rode normally. I dared not hit it hard, of course. I took it home and took it apart.
I am becoming convinced that the 30T sprocket is a critical player in this. The fact that it's a MoCo factory piece (for TriGlides) would make it seem harmless enough. I guess I could just throw the stocker back on, But I'd never feel confident About it. Are TriGlides eating belts? Of course not, nobody beats on trikes.










I'm hoping that someone will be able to spot the 'smoking gun' and explain.

[rageglide]

Hate to state the obvious, it's a safe bet that most, if not all TriGlide riders don't ride em like they stole em.  Them bikes exist so HD can keep the traditionalists riding Harleys right up to the retirement home.  Of course there are exceptions, ie paraplegics etc.  The comment isn't meant to be judgemental just a realistic comment.

Whatever you're doing is most likely the smoking gun.  I'm not passing judgement, just sayin.

The front pulley looks really worn, plus it looks like the belt lives against the flange.  My bikes usually don't show much if any contact with the flange.  Do you align the rear axle center to center, axle to swing arm?

[masstch]

It does appear to hug the outside but that's just where the rear sprocket lines up. I've checked it measuring the across the pulley faces and checking against a straight edge, everything lines up. The rear pulley shows the belt tracking evenly against both sides and not contacting the bevel.  The original pulley looks exactly the same as the smaller TriGlide for wear. 25K on the original, 10K on the 30T.

[FSG]

I am becoming convinced that the 30T sprocket is a critical player in this. The fact that it's a MoCo factory piece (for TriGlides) would make it seem harmless enough.

do the pulleys have the same offset, are they the same center thickness ?

[masstch]

Measured as pictured, outer face on the table, to inner face of the I.D.
.022 difference.
I didn't have time to mike the outer flange.

I don't know what the tolerance would be but I would be surprised if 020 is too much for a belt.
I have in mind a simple way to do a comparison this evening.

Original 1.602


30T  1.580

[Cvoharleyrider]

Lots of info here, but may wish to check that center of swing arm pivot shaft to center of rear axle shaft are the same dimension on both sides.  Regardless of whether adjuster cam moves or not, swing arm stops could be off which would require the use of independent adjusts like the zippers kit.  Also, as others have recommended go back to the 32 tooth pulley on the Trans and perhaps go with a 32 comp sprocket pulley instead.  Great pull down low.

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[Cvoharleyrider]

Also check out the bazzaz qs4 stand alone quick shifter for 2008-2013 HD touring bikes.  Easier on the Trans for clutch less shifts

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[masstch]

OK guys, I want very much to know what's going on, here.
I'm trying to measure everything and also mock it up to try to see wth is happening.
I installed the old belt, axle and both pulleys without the wheel or spacer.
I put the spacer in place, set up s straight edge (carpenter quality, not machinist grade)
And tried to take a few measurements.

Measuring locations as below:

A= 4.482
B= 4.505
C= 4.507
D= 4.480





Given the carpenter's tools and the rubber mounted IDS, it it's likely within whatever specs there are.
I'll have to try to reaffirm with the wheel on, but you get the drift.
Tell me what, and how you want to see measured.

[N-gin]

Belt too tight?
Suspension travel makes it tighter.

Puta chain. Your time is worth more than money

[oranjvoodoo]

From the center of the bolt for the rear arm at the trans to the center of the axle bolt...Should be the same on both sides. Are the arm to trans. bushings upgraded or refreshed? Given the way you ride, this dimension might change enough under a heavy load to throw the belt out of alignment momentarily. The .020" you came up with in these last pictures made me think of this.

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[-deuced-]

According to those measurements your pulleys are like this    /    \
They should be like this    __    __
Or your straightedge is like this     U
Comprendes?

Your tool kit looks like mine, I've often used that type of straightedge, lol.
Keeping the straightedge on the same plane, move it backwards and forwards, taking more measurements at ABCD points. Probably won't get identical measurements but if the variance is the same you'll know the straightedge is flat.
Lock the straightedge in position and measure the ABCD points. Turn the pulleys 90* and measure ABCD points. Turn the pulleys another 90* and measure ABCD points. Turn the pulleys another 90* and measure. The more positions you measure, the better, but if the measurements are the same you'll know the pulleys are flat.
Place the straightedge directly across the face of the front pulley, it can rest on top of the shaft, so that points A and B are zero. C should equal D.
I'd probably do all this without the belt on the pulleys at first. Should be able to tighten the rear axle nut enough by hand to hold it sturdy. I'd do measurements on both the 32 and the 30 pulleys. Don't forget to take into account the different pulley flange thicknesses. Yeah, it's time consuming but if it were me I'd like to know what the problem was before I just slapped a chain on. I'm sure there's someone who punishes their bike harder without problem. How often do those stunt riders break belts? Maybe you have got too much power,  maybe swingarm bent, I don't know. Problem started after installation of the 30 tooth pulley so I guess it points to that. Are you certain engine and transmission alignment is correct? When you get the pulleys in line then measure from swingarm axle to wheel axle.

[masstch]

Those are good ideas. I am going to look some more at this and remeasure. The chain parts arrived today and that's trying to distract me, but, you're right.... I wanna know.


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[jbexeter]

Could the OP just be an "edge" case?

1/ 30t = more tension on the belt than a 32t for a given output torque.
2/ hopped up motor
3/ redline shifting
4/ clutchless shifting
5/ smaller radius of 30t closer to belt limit and accordingly reduces rated loads

perhaps if any 3 or 4 are true = no problem, but all 5 true and you're into belt limit territory?

electric / air shifter may present entirely different loads to the transmission than the OP's manual method?

old belts sent to gates for analysis? (it's free I believe)

[VDeuce]

I'm stickin' with the front pulley as the culprit due to its smaller diameter and its chewing the belt me thinks.

[VDeuce]

But the chain conversion will end it for sure...

Unless you just gotsta know. 

[Eglider05]

But the chain conversion will end it for sure...

And you might wonder why you didn't do it sooner. I've been running a chain for 3 or 4 years and am very happy with it. No having to worry about busting a belt if I want to have some fun.

Rick

[oranjvoodoo]

But the chain conversion will end it for sure...

And you might wonder why you didn't do it sooner. I've been running a chain for 3 or 4 years and am very happy with it. No having to worry about busting a belt if I want to have some fun.

Rick

Would the chain be adversely affected if the swingarm isn't true with the motor?

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[masstch]

OK, I've lost a couple of hours this evening trying to get a proper measurement of this thing. I don't have s proper straightedge, can't find the good caliper, and my laser is broken.
It's just one of those days. The best measurement I've got seems to indicate the rear pulley sitting close to a quarter inch *outboard* compared to the face of the front pulley.
I will try tomorrow to get a better measurement  and in the mean time, I'll try to imagine how the heck this can occur.
I'll admit that I don't know what the tolerance is for this either.
I don't see anything wrong about the swing arm. Tomorrow I'll pull the arm and inspect again. The bore in the trans looked fine. I can't move the swig arm relative to the trans. The bike has never been damaged as far as I know.
Maybe there's a spacer I left out way back when. Hell I don't know .  Better measuring tomorrow


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[jbexeter]

http://www.epi-eng.com/rotorway_helicopter/rotor_drive_system/gates_belt_issues.htm

Lots of intersting info

such as belt tension / pre-load / side load etc should all be set up for the expected HP to be handled, not one setting for everything, factory (HD) setting is for factory displacement and BHP numbers, not suitable for anything else.

[masstch]

OK, I've spent a bunch of time trying to get useful measurements on this thing, because...well, I just gotsta know.

I mainly spent time fabricating tools to make proper measurement possible.

First thing, I checked runout of the front and rear sprockets. The 30T, 0.018; Rear sprocket, 0.010





Measured (Compared) the swing arm pivot to axle centers, both sides. Exactly the same.





Next I rigged up another much heavier thick aluminum straightedge. I was super careful to clamp it only at the very end and the forwrd portion rested on the output shaft, against the step, with no clamp. This proved solid and repeatable. I was able to align the big straightedge parallel to the face of the front pulley, within 0.001.







I then measured the rear sprocket and found that the front edge was 0.18 closer to the straightedge than the front pulley.
The rear edge is 0.28 closer.
So, the rear pulley sits about a quarter inch outboard and angled ever-so-slightly toward the front pulley.
This is actually what I found with the carpenter's ruler but didn't believe it.
I now believe it.
So, the next question is "why"? There are only a a couple of ways to create this. The swing arm is bent; it's built wrong; the trans case is bored incorrectly; there's some part missing; the swing arm bearings are screwed.







Another question is: Is this outside of the official tolerance? is this proof positive of a 'smoking gun'? As in, this definitely ate the belts?
Keep in mind that this is all academic for me as I'm definitely going chain and "chain don't care" about this low degree of misalignment.







Look at the pics, talk to me.

[FSG]

Look at the pics, talk to me.

My first thought is "are the faces of the pullys parallel with the inner surface that bolts to the wheel or mainshaft"?

[vafatboy1]

Ricky

Built wrong is a possibility. My softail didn't track correctly when I bought it. Took it back within a week and they fiddled with it for 6 hours while I waited. While it was better, it still wasn't right.

Alignment procedure was to measure from swing arm center line.

Somewhere around 15k miles as I recall I got a crazy loud screech coming from the belt at low decel speeds.

Turns out the belt was biased  to the out side edge of the pulley and was shedding rubber that stuck to the pulley edge. When cold the belt and rubber on the pulley would make a hell of a racket.

Through trial and error I adjusted the rear wheel until it tracked perfectly hands off. When done the difference in axle to swing arm center line was 5/32 different from side to side. As viewed from the rear the wheel (pulley) was tracking to the right.