Pathetic Fuel Economy w/T-Max - Experts please HELP!

[q1svt]

Just curious. Any reason not to go to 14.2-14.5 in cruise?
Ron

Here's TP@cruise results.  Let me know if you have any questions...

As I said we are just seeing if we fixed his decreasing mileage... he has a very old and outdate map, that isn't right for his cam.

New mapping we will try to dial in the fueling.  Then last step would be to use this information [above] to fine tune AFR specific within cruise RPM ranges 2800-3300 [fyi, he does not have a tachometer] for mileage and if we need to consider Oxygenated or non-Oxygenated gas [14.1 or 14.7].

[rbabos]

Just curious. Any reason not to go to 14.2-14.5 in cruise?
Ron

Here's TP@cruise results.  Let me know if you have any questions...

As I said we are just seeing if we fixed his decreasing mileage... he has a very old and outdate map, that isn't right for his cam.

New mapping we will try to dial in the fueling.  Then last step would be to use this information [above] to fine tune AFR specific within cruise RPM ranges 2800-3300 [fyi, he does not have a tachometer] for mileage and if we need to consider Oxygenated or non-Oxygenated gas [14.1 or 14.7].

Ok, will shut up now.
Ron

[q1svt]

Ok, will shut up now.
Ron

No it was a good question... we both have experience w/TMax and it's easy to jump ahead.  I could have just given a new map and said do this and that , but Shane would be  and wondering.  As I step him through on how I do it and why, others are following too.  In the end they can use what THEY like or blend some of it into their approach or figure I'm just full of     

 

[q1svt]

I went to the cycle shop, as I indicated I would, took two cleaning/lubricating fuel additives off the shelf and brought them to the store manager to ask which he recommended. He walked me right to the Wako's brand section and recommended one of their products.  They are like the most trusted lubricant brand in Japan, but they weren't represented in the fuel additive section.  They have their own exclusive section at every cycle/automotive store. Bet Wako's pays some pretty hefty kickbacks, for the store reps to recommend their brand's products like that without hesitation.  LOL.  Anyway, tho, yes it does say deposit removal and looks like it will do the trick.

Wako's F1 must be a good product, picture shows the before and affter valves.. Wako has an USA office but do not sell Fuel One in the US [EPA keep's the good stuff out]

http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/6degrees/item/f1/

Ebay USA @ $26.00 + $16.00 shipping + duty & taxes
$17.00 Japan seems a good price

You can check spark plugs after the second tank full, their site says "continuous use of 2 ~ 3 times is effective for many vehicles"  since we are talking about harley's it might need 20 ~ 30 tank fulls  lol

[JC 92FXRS]

Ok, will shut up now.
Ron
[/quote]


I feel your pain Ron! 

Cheers, Jeff

[JapanDrifter]

I was just digging thru some old PMs over on H-D Forums and it looks like it was Ron (rbabos), above, who suggested the original base map I loaded back in 2009 (#403 back then).

Two things:
1. I had some decel popping woes with this map and I think I ended up handing my whole map to Ron, and he tweaked the ignition timing for me (because the decel pop setting under basic settings wasn't working) and he handed it back. I loaded that and it hasn't popped since, so kudos to Ron, there. Is ignition timing a big factor on MPG? Did this tweak, perhaps, do anything to influence mileage, especially after installing the new cams? 

2. I don't think the AFRvsTP tables you dug up from before are the same ones I'm using now.  After I changed cams, somebody (I believe it was Ron or mayor - maybe Max, but I don't believe so) suggested I try a more aggressive fuel curve, which I mimicked manually on the original fuel curve, but earlier this year, took it down a notch or two in an attempt to bring up the MPG. That's the curve you see in my OP.

If you need to see my whole map to get a better picture of what's up, let me know and I'll get the file to you...

[rbabos]

I was just digging thru some old PMs over on H-D Forums and it looks like it was Ron (rbabos), above, who suggested the original base map I loaded back in 2009 (#403 back then).

Two things:
1. I had some decel popping woes with this map and I think I ended up handing my whole map to Ron, and he tweaked the ignition timing for me (because the decel pop setting under basic settings wasn't working) and he handed it back. I loaded that and it hasn't popped since, so kudos to Ron, there. Is ignition timing a big factor on MPG? Did this tweak, perhaps, do anything to influence mileage, especially after installing the new cams? 

2. I don't think the AFRvsTP tables you dug up from before are the same ones I'm using now.  After I changed cams, somebody (I believe it was Ron or mayor - maybe Max, but I don't believe so) suggested I try a more aggressive fuel curve, which I mimicked manually on the original fuel curve, but earlier this year, took it down a notch or two in an attempt to bring up the MPG. That's the curve you see in my OP.

If you need to see my whole map to get a better picture of what's up, let me know and I'll get the file to you...

Oh sure, just when I was sneaking out of this you drag me back. I remember the decel pop now, almost
I think you are in good hands with q1svt. I'd be picking his brain too if I still ran Tmax.
Ron

[JapanDrifter]

Looks like mayor was helping me out with the tune after installing cams.  I was wrong tho. He actually told me to lean 'er up a bit in cruise range, not make it more aggressive.

Thread:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,43143.msg448487.html#msg448487

Screenshot of the AFR table he gave me to mimic:


I auto-mapped it a time or two since then, so the tables look a bit different now...

[q1svt]

I was just digging thru some old PMs over on H-D Forums and it looks like it was Ron (rbabos), above, who suggested the original base map I loaded back in 2009 (#403 back then).

Two things:
1. I had some decel popping woes with this map and I think I ended up handing my whole map to Ron, and he tweaked the ignition timing for me (because the decel pop setting under basic settings wasn't working) and he handed it back. I loaded that and it hasn't popped since, so kudos to Ron, there. Is ignition timing a big factor on MPG? Did this tweak, perhaps, do anything to influence mileage, especially after installing the new cams? 

2. I don't think the AFRvsTP tables you dug up from before are the same ones I'm using now.  After I changed cams, somebody (I believe it was Ron or mayor - maybe Max, but I don't believe so) suggested I try a more aggressive fuel curve, which I mimicked manually on the original fuel curve, but earlier this year, took it down a notch or two in an attempt to bring up the MPG. That's the curve you see in my OP.

If you need to see my whole map to get a better picture of what's up, let me know and I'll get the file to you...

The key is a lot of things have changed with TMax and TM maps over the years... First the TMax cleaned up all of their old maps [your map no longer exists 408/428] many maps were combined into a new map with all of the new style of coding [at that time, and it continues today] those maps.  Your current combined version is map 846 if you look in the note section you will see a comment and your old map naming HDTSSQVCUG.  That's the one we pulled the fuel curve from.  Because we will find a complete different map [now available today] there was no need for you to completely change your current map just to check to see if we can fix mileage with the Cleaner and a map tweak.

Yes timing can effect MPG, along with many other things.

The guys you mention from HTT were early users of the generation (1) TMax and worked hard to understand how to use it, BUT as I stated there have been two hardware upgrades, many software upgrades and ongoing continual refinement of the Map development.

If the latest mapping you are using is running okay then continue to run the cleaner and when done we will get a map better suited to you bike.

[JapanDrifter]

Oh sure, just when I was sneaking out of this you drag me back. I remember the decel pop now, almost
I think you are in good hands with q1svt. I'd be picking his brain too if I still ran Tmax.
Ron

LOL. Oh, I kept all our original T-Max conversations in my PM box for future reference and learning. I can post 'em all here, if you'd like me to refresh your memory...haha.

[q1svt]

I do not need any mapping information, but I would like to see the 'Engine Temperature' and 'RPM' historical data.

The next time you marry the bike to the TMax software [non-running] select the left side dropdown 'Module Configuration' & then Warranty Information'.  You will be asked if you want to connect to the bike ECU, yes.  There should be couple of tabs Temperature & RPM, screen capture them and either post them or you can PM them to me.

Engine temperature will provide data on the motor and climate you ride.  I know Japan has varied altitudes from sea level to about 8/9000 feet [yes Mount Fuji is higher but not sure you can ride to 12000 feet]...     good thing you don't have a flatlander cam

RPM history, since you don't have a tachometer, I'll get your riding history in RPM's... where you spend most of your time and where we will want to spend time fine tuning the new map. 

[JapanDrifter]

I do not need any mapping information, but I would like to see the 'Engine Temperature' and 'RPM' historical data.

The next time you marry the bike to the TMax software [non-running] select the left side dropdown 'Module Configuration' & then Warranty Information'.  You will be asked if you want to connect to the bike ECU, yes.  There should be couple of tabs Temperature & RPM, screen capture them and either post them or you can PM them to me.

Engine temperature will provide data on the motor and climate you ride.  I know Japan has varied altitudes from sea level to about 8/9000 feet [yes Mount Fuji is higher but not sure you can ride to 12000 feet]...     good thing you don't have a flatlander cam

RPM history, since you don't have a tachometer, I'll get your riding history in RPM's... where you spend most of your time and where we will want to spend time fine tuning the new map.

Okay, got it.

[rbabos]

Oh sure, just when I was sneaking out of this you drag me back. I remember the decel pop now, almost
I think you are in good hands with q1svt. I'd be picking his brain too if I still ran Tmax.
Ron

LOL. Oh, I kept all our original T-Max conversations in my PM box for future reference and learning. I can post 'em all here, if you'd like me to refresh your memory...haha.

No, better not in case I said something stupid back then. Old news now anyway. Gotta work with the latest and greatest Tmax has to offer. I'll sit back and observe.
Ron
Ron

[q1svt]

No, better not in case I said something stupid back then. Old news now anyway. Gotta work with the latest and greatest Tmax has to offer. I'll sit back and observe.
Ron
Ron

Ron
Ron
I'm expecting a similar thread from you on PowerVision Target Tune   

[Coyote]

Ron
Ron
I'm expecting a similar thread from you on PowerVision Target Tune   

   

[rbabos]

No, better not in case I said something stupid back then. Old news now anyway. Gotta work with the latest and greatest Tmax has to offer. I'll sit back and observe.
Ron
Ron

Ron

I'm expecting a similar thread from you on PowerVision Target Tune   

Don't get me started on that.  
Ron

[q1svt]

Looks like mayor was helping me out with the tune after installing cams.  I was wrong tho. He actually told me to lean 'er up a bit in cruise range, not make it more aggressive.

*****

I auto-mapped it a time or two since then, so the tables look a bit different now...

Shane I want to be clearer about your comment on looking different [I delete some for your post from Mayor's post because it would be a little difficult to use since it was a screen shot...

But here is a better starting point

The Air Fuel maps (picture above) is where you tell the TMax unit how much & where you want what fuel for each RPM/TPS positions

The Front/Rear Cylinder Fuel maps convert those instructions into Injector Pulse Widths and show how the Wide-Band O2's are dialing in the change.
{the two screen shots are not from the same Map just for demonstration}

And now that we have your great Grip to TPS mapping, that the place you were leaning it out before wasn't in the cruise range shown in Mayor's chart in post reply # 57...

[attach=0]

[JapanDrifter]

Looks like mayor was helping me out with the tune after installing cams.  I was wrong tho. He actually told me to lean 'er up a bit in cruise range, not make it more aggressive.

*****

I auto-mapped it a time or two since then, so the tables look a bit different now...

Shane I want to be clearer about your comment on looking different [I delete some for your post from Mayor's post because it would be a little difficult to use since it was a screen shot...

But here is a better starting point

The Air Fuel maps (picture above) is where you tell the TMax unit how much & where you want what fuel for each RPM/TPS positions

The Front/Rear Cylinder Fuel maps convert those instructions into Injector Pulse Widths and show how the Wide-Band O2's are dialing in the change.
{the two screen shots are not from the same Map just for demonstration}

And now that we have your great Grip to TPS mapping, that the place you were leaning it out before wasn't in the cruise range shown in Mayor's chart in post reply # 57...

[attach=0]

I know that, now, since you had me do the TP@cruise run, but again, I only recently made the final drive pulley change, so it was probably closer to cruise range when I made the changes suggested by mayor. I was just letting you know in case you were using a different map as a reference point, instead of the one I updated with mayor's changes.

Here's another thing, tho: when I went in to make the speedo adjustment for the gearing change, I noticed that all this time, it had been set for a bike with a 70T pulley (Dyna, because this Tmax unit was on a Dyna before my bike), instead of a 64T (Japan) Softail. I had no idea before reading a thread on gearing changes over on HD Forums (the catalyst for my change) that this even had to be changed in the ECM or that there even was such a setting. I just assumed pretty much all HD big twin bikes used the same gearing in stock form. So...in addition to my speedo now being off by who knows how many kms, the cruise range was probably off even MORE so back then (or is that just a speed calibration which has no influence on TP or cruise range?).  Which leads me to another question, aren't the AFR tables you are having me use now also off a bit, since the cruise range has not been tweaked to my gearing change?  Or are we not worrying about that right now? Wouldn't mpg improve or be more efficient if we tweaked the current map a little for the gearing change?

[Coff 06]

Wouldn't the speedo calibration effect your MPG readings if your using the odometer to figure your gas mileage?.           Coff 06

[whittlebeast]

Did you ever post a data log off this motor?

[glens]

you can check the text box but looks to be 13,8+ .  14.1 is Lamda for oxygenated gas [that's why I ask you earlier  ].

I see what you're trying to do in this thread, and applaud it, but that bit of info isn't really helpful because lambda is lambda and with these systems that don't use lambda values directly, it's been my experience that "14.6" (maybe 14.7) arbitrarily indicates lambda.  It doesn't matter if it's really 9.0:1 AFR (straight alcohol) or whatever.  Any lambda mixture will register as "14.6".  So fuel composition should not enter into the discussion except to state that the same should be used throughout the process, and for best long-term results should not be varied wildly.  In that train of thought, unless a particular dose of cleaner is always going to be mixed into the fuel, fine-tuning of the system will likely be time somewhat wasted while the cleaner/fuel mix is being run through.

Don't worry about "14.1" at cruise being too lean because no matter the fuel composition, you'll be running at 0.9657 lambda, which surely ought to be sufficient for economy versus heat.

That bit were'nt piss, but this might be: this thread has my head spinning a bit.  I could see jumping through all these hoops if a build absolutely required it but the DTT stuff seems a better option to me if the (currently) stock Delphi couldn't handle things.  Yes, I understand that this isn't a discussion about which system is better for what, and I also understand that this particular unit is not current anyway.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's got to be a demarcation point where a few extra bucks spent outweigh a bunch of time spent.

Also, I don't recall it being mentioned yet, but as O2 sensors age (or become corrupted) they get slower to respond and tend to lie "lean" and that was the very first thing that came to my mind in regards to this thread.  The system will think it's getting leaner and leaner and progressively throw more fuel at it in an attempt to "fix" the situation.  Mileage will progressively get worse and worse and plugs will look just like what's been shown in this thread.

That's all I have to say about this thread, so no need to try to bully me out of it.

[JapanDrifter]

you can check the text box but looks to be 13,8+ .  14.1 is Lamda for oxygenated gas [that's why I ask you earlier  ].

I see what you're trying to do in this thread, and applaud it, but that bit of info isn't really helpful because lambda is lambda and with these systems that don't use lambda values directly, it's been my experience that "14.6" (maybe 14.7) arbitrarily indicates lambda.  It doesn't matter if it's really 9.0:1 AFR (straight alcohol) or whatever.  Any lambda mixture will register as "14.6".  So fuel composition should not enter into the discussion except to state that the same should be used throughout the process, and for best long-term results should not be varied wildly.  In that train of thought, unless a particular dose of cleaner is always going to be mixed into the fuel, fine-tuning of the system will likely be time somewhat wasted while the cleaner/fuel mix is being run through.

Don't worry about "14.1" at cruise being too lean because no matter the fuel composition, you'll be running at 0.9657 lambda, which surely ought to be sufficient for economy versus heat.

That bit were'nt piss, but this might be: this thread has my head spinning a bit.  I could see jumping through all these hoops if a build absolutely required it but the DTT stuff seems a better option to me if the (currently) stock Delphi couldn't handle things.  Yes, I understand that this isn't a discussion about which system is better for what, and I also understand that this particular unit is not current anyway.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's got to be a demarcation point where a few extra bucks spent outweigh a bunch of time spent.

Also, I don't recall it being mentioned yet, but as O2 sensors age (or become corrupted) they get slower to respond and tend to lie "lean" and that was the very first thing that came to my mind in regards to this thread.  The system will think it's getting leaner and leaner and progressively throw more fuel at it in an attempt to "fix" the situation.  Mileage will progressively get worse and worse and plugs will look just like what's been shown in this thread.

That's all I have to say about this thread, so no need to try to bully me out of it.

I believe that's one of the things we are trying to figure out with this process, isn't it? If we can't improve the fuel mileage no matter what map we run or how we tweak it, then we can assume it's the unit or one of its components.  If it turns out to be the oxygen sensors, I could buy a new set of those, but they are $210 a pair + shipping to Japan, so I may opt to take that money and put it toward that PV I've been eyeing practically since they came out. I don't believe this is time wasted since we'll eventually narrow it down to where the issue lies and and we'll either "tune it out" (plus it's an excuse to get out and ride and use up tanks of gas for MPG testing), or I'll need to start saving for a new tuner and hold off on that 107" FM build. LOL.

[q1svt]

PRICELESS...  could not have said it better.

[q1svt]

Don't worry about "14.1" at cruise being too lean because no matter the fuel composition, you'll be running at 0.9657 lambda, which surely ought to be sufficient for economy versus heat.

Some people never seem to get it... clueless  [that's why further postings, and we will request that the Admin's delete them]

Lambda always equals '1'
But AFR is always different DEPENDING of the actual fuel that is being used   
Oxygenated E10 Stoichiometer = Lambda 1; AFR 14.08

TMax does not use Lambda for user input... users input AFR Values.  [yes internally software does it thing but we are not talking about software] 

Here is a post from another thread

Except comparing E15 to 100% gasoline (which is still available in many places), it's a big jump.   (5.5%)
What about the blender pumps where you get an unknown amount of E85 when you expect 10% ethanol?   

Stoich Fixed ratios  are about 1 point different between E15 and 100%.  We obviously tune for richer mixtures, so you go even richer.

E15 is 13.8:1 AFR
E10  @  14.13:1 AFR
Gasoline @ 14.7:1

Stoich Lambda is 1.000 for all fuels and the O2 sorts it out. 
If the EFI map can use Lambda exclusively it's a very good justification to run closed loop.

Its' not clear to me whether the older maps convert lambda to AFR in the feedback loop or if they convert AFR to lambda up front.  Up front conversion would be safer I think.... So I suppose that's what Delphi and others are doing. [this was regarding a PVTT tuning, not TMax]

Interesting reading and it includes a table of Fuels and their AFR/Lambda values :
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1307-wideband-oxygen-sensor/

Here's the table, Credit to Hot Rod

The chart did not come over with the repost, but the Hot Rod link has it...

edited:

[q1svt]

I know that, now, since you had me do the TP@cruise run, but again, I only recently made the final drive pulley change, so it was probably closer to cruise range when I made the changes suggested by mayor. I was just letting you know in case you were using a different map as a reference point, instead of the one I updated with mayor's changes.

Here's another thing, tho: when I went in to make the speedo adjustment for the gearing change, I noticed that all this time, it had been set for a bike with a 70T pulley (Dyna, because this Tmax unit was on a Dyna before my bike), instead of a 64T (Japan) Softail. I had no idea before reading a thread on gearing changes over on HD Forums (the catalyst for my change) that this even had to be changed in the ECM or that there even was such a setting. I just assumed pretty much all HD big twin bikes used the same gearing in stock form. So...in addition to my speedo now being off by who knows how many kms, the cruise range was probably off even MORE so back then (or is that just a speed calibration which has no influence on TP or cruise range?).  Which leads me to another question, aren't the AFR tables you are having me use now also off a bit, since the cruise range has not been tweaked to my gearing change?  Or are we not worrying about that right now? Wouldn't mpg improve or be more efficient if we tweaked the current map a little for the gearing change?

Okay you're good on where to do adjustments with the Grip - TPS mapping 

With the Dyna 'Speedo Cal' as Coffy stated the odometer is off too and historical mileage is off...  bottom line we will try to tune for good performance and retune areas for mileage.  [since you're an Apple guy... hopefully with smart phone, look at app's that will provide speed].  Then you can fine tune the Speedo Cal using the 'True Speed Method' .

As far as current map you should tweet the base Speedo Cal, so you will know what changes you will need with the new TW-555 cam map.  We cannot do a true comparison between old[current] and the new map mileage... but you clearly understand what's going on and the issues associated with the old history. 

The new fuel curve is wide enough from idle - 44.3 TPS so we have no issues  [longer is okay, to short is not good in the sense that you will run RICH in highway cruise range.

Any other things about the Japan HD specifications that you think will effect TMax Mapping?