REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: LET'S TALK ABOUT FXR GEARING

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/11/2008 6:17 PM

Classic,
Thanks for the info and your in depth analysis. We decided to try the 33T/65T combo as it is the most cost effective at the moment. The primary leak was repaired today as it turned out, the factory mounting surface on my "NEW" 1000 mile ago HD inner primary cover was not true.

We chucked the inner into a Bridgeport mill and trued the mounting surface slightly. Installed a new engine to primary o-ring, mainshaft bearing and starter shaft seals. The transmission was dry, so we used a slight bit if high temp silicone sealer around the engine to inner mounting surface.

Fired and warmed her up and then shut down until tomorrow morning left the bike on the lift. We should know in the morning if the problem has been solved. Also discussing about how we get to do this all over again soon as we can get an accurate belt tooth count to purchase a belt for the 33/65 combo.

It's a good thing that the labor on our own bikes does not cost us anything. The total repair cost was under $40.00 including 2 qts of Redline MTL.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: SUPERDAVE8404 Sent: 6/11/2008 8:28 PM

Guys you are driving me nuts with the talk of gearing and what it will do for rpms.
Here is a breakdown of it in black and white.It's 2 pages from a magazine with the issue you are trying to sort 


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[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/12/2008 9:41 AM

Superdave,
Thanks for the chart. Like a fool while we had the inner off yesterday, forgot to measure the distance from the center of the trans pulley to the existing rear pulley> If I had taken the time to do that I could have ordered a belt.


Pages 2/3 and 3/3 Chart Provided by Superdave:



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[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/13/2008 7:01 PM

Anyone have any use for this driveline spreadsheet? It was posted here back in 2003, and I thought is was saved somewhere in HTT, but I can't find where.

Excellent CHART!!!!!:

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[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 11:30 AM

Fuzznut5197....

The above attached is a great excel program....THANK YOU VERY MUCH.....I am assuming that this is quite accurate.....it seems this post has taken on some great introduction into how gearing is determined.....

Thank you for posting that....I have already went through and plugged in my numbers.....it even takes INTO account tire size....

Awesome.....

Regards,


"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/14/2008 11:55 AM
Classic, yes with the tire diameter it is very accurate. The easy way to calculate tire diameter is this:
Mark your tire at the point where it is in contact with the ground.
Mark the ground too. Now roll the bike forward until the wheel has made one full turn and the mark on the tire is where it is in contact with the ground again. Mark the ground again. Now measure the distance between the 2 marks on the ground. Take that measurement and divide it by pi (3.1416). The result is your tire diameter.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 12:28 PM
On one of my bikes I am running a Metzlers on another one I am running a Dunlops when ever I purchase tires I get all of the information....each manufactuerer states witth size of the rear tire is.....so that's another way   lol and of course I very much like your addition to how one can measure.....that's a great idea....and formula.....that pretty much answers how to figure out gearing for our harley's.....all neatly tucked away in this thread!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/14/2008 1:54 PM

Classic,
For some reason, I could not get Fuzznuts link to open. How would this latest spreadsheet refer to my situation? I'm running a stock size 130 Metzeler ME 880 on the rear to play it safe as there was a difference of opinion with the members on whether a 140 would fit the FXR or not.

When we make this conversion, we are thinking about trying a 140 anyways. If it means running stainless button head fasteners from the inside to gain more clearance we can do that. The difference of opinion was about the larger tire possibly nailing the wiring under the fender and hitting the inside of the upper belt guard.

I mostly ride solo and have yet to bottom out my Progressive 11 1/2" rear shocks on the lowest setting, so I think I can make the 140 work. The primary leak has been repared and the directionals have been fixed, so now it's time to ride this bad girl!!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/14/2008 4:38 PM
Olestoney....

FXR2

16” Rear  Metzler ME 880 <st1:place w:st="on">Marathon</st1:place> MBS 130/B16  73H   
Drag Specialties Item # 110-10414  130/90HB-16   $163.95 
Diameter (Height) 646 mm = 25.433070 inches  25 7/16”
Width 137 mm = 5.3937007 inches or just a little more than 5 3/8”

The first time it runs it takes awhile when you click on it Stoney....but perhaps your computer is a bit older or you don't have microsoft excel.....anyway not to worry.....I can help you out.....ok so take the information off of your tire and go to Metzler's website....for example my tire which is a 130 m tire is 25.433070 or 23.43 inches....so Fuzz's offering above allows you to plug in all of the combinations compensating sprocket, clutch shell basket, transmission gear, rear wheel sprocket, and tire size, then you choose what gear you wish to do, and then you select miles per hour and it calculates RPMS...

So either your going to get the information from Metzler or your dealer or someone here will know your wheel size by the actual information just as I posted above....

And before everyone tells Stoney to do what Fuzz did above about measuring olestony's bike is on a motorcycle stand getting worked on.....

So Stoney give me your tire size and I will calculate for you......I just did this again with all new numbers for the offers as I did before but this is a bit more accurate....2.925 is for my FXR2, 3.15 is for a stock 2002 + touring bike, and 3.37 gearing is for a 99-01 touring bike or anything anybody would like to change....as well as 1989 -1993 FXRs....probably other bikes as well I am just not up on all the bikes and their gearing.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/14/2008 6:23 PM

Classic,

As usual, thanks for the helpful info. Next time you need tires give me a shout. I have a source that can save you some money on the tire(s) and the shipping is free.

If you wouldn't mind and have the time, please run your spreadsheet with my 24T/37T data and the current 16" ME880 and if possible with the Metz 140. I'd love to try an Avon, but the roads tear them up down here. The Metzelers have performed wonderfully so far. I'm leaning towards the 33T/65T combo @ 3.08 if the data is correct. Seems like a good compromise between your 2.92 and 3.15.

A big help is another shop in town has new 130,132 and 133T belts in stock. They have agreed to let me borrow all three and just purchase the one that is correct. The new 65T rear pulley and new rear caliper mount go to be clear powdercoated on Monday. Soon as they are done should be ready to go.

BTW,  if I go with the 33T/65T combo I won't need the new 32T BDL trans pulley kit in stock. If you are interested for your conversion, it goes to you at our dealer cost.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/18/2008 8:42 AM

Classic,

I could only get measurements from Metzeler and my distrubutor in millimeters. Not being a math whiz, I do not know how to convert mm to inches. According to Metzeler the measurements in the two rer tires are as follows.

130/90 16 ME880 Width 137mm, Circumferance is 646mm
140/90 16 ME880 Width 146mm, Circumferance is 665mm

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:04 AM

Also please provide me with the combination(s) with the rear tire(s) you want to be figured....ie:

So is this the correct combination for the tire you are currently running?
24T Comp
37T Comp
33T Trans Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket......
25.43" tire size diameter in inches

".....The 3.15 might be an all around better choice with the larger 140, we'll have to see what the numbers say......"

It might very well be and up above I have run the numbers for a 140 tire which is 25.71" with 24T comp, 36T clutch shell, 32T trans pulley, and 70T rear wheel sprocket.....so that's in the post above....but you can't run that anyway.....we have already been through that.....without changing as you said "lots" of other internal parts....which you aren't going to do....so that combination you already have.....

Ok....so I ran the following:

24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Basket
33T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket
25.43" Diameter Tire  130 me 880

Notice that the gearing instead of being 3.08 with this combination it is 3.03 so if that's what you are running that's what it would be.....

remember GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND:
646 mm = 25.433  inches
665 mm = 26.181  inches

Regards,

"Classic"


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[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:18 AM

665 mm = 26.181  inches

Interestingly enough by running this tire size you will LOWER your RPM's about 85 through out 1st - 5th gear with the given parimeters of the 3.037 gearing that I provided the chart above...

I actually found this interesting.....but that would also raise your bike up some as well....running a bigger tire....then you always have the fitment issues....

So take the chart I did in message #63 above and reduce the column labeled 3.037 for each number by 85 RPM's and you will have a very good overview of what to expect.....with a 26.181 diameter tire size (140 mm).

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/18/2008 10:35 AM

If everything is accurate....and if you run the following:

24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Sprocket
33T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket

with a 25.433" tire your gearing will be 3.037
with a 26.181" tire your gearing will be 3.036

The interesting part of this is that if you do decide to run the 26.181" tire or 665 mm 140mm tire with the above combination you will be within say 20 - 30RPMS in every gear at every speed compared to what  2.2925 gearing is running currently with the following:

25T Comp Sprocket
36T Clutch Shell Basket
32T Transmission Pulley
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket
25.43" tire size 130 mm metzler of which I have described in greater detail above.

Personally I think you have found a winner...by going to the:
24T Comp Sprocket
37T Clutch Shell Sprocket
33T Transmission Pulley  (that you are purchasing from Baker right?) and they are the only ones making this size right?
65T Rear Wheel Sprocket  which is obviously easy to find....as it's quite common

Thus.....with the 26.181" tire or 665 mm tire (Metzler 140) then you have a combination that seems to really have been geared higher from where you were originally running from 3.37 gearing....

Now the only thing you need to find is the proper belt size......and it sounds like you are on your way......let me know what belt size (if you decide to run this combo) that you end up with ie: manufactuerer, part number and price....always good to have notes on this stuff....

This combination providing my "math" is correct sounds like a REAL winner...for what your OBJECTIVE is......and like you said given the limitations of your inner primary without having to change many other parts to get a 25 comp sprocket or a 36 clutch shell basket to work, I believe you have a winner here even from the "affordability" stand point.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/18/2008 6:05 PM

Classic,
Thanks for being the math wizard and for the assistance!! The current 33T trans pulley on the bike and the 32T on the shelf are both from BDL. They are both the later style with the wider mainshaft spline, larger seal and spacer. I converted over to the newer style when fixing a leaking mainshaft seal. I have used and like BDL products for years.

The previous owner had just had a new belt installed about a month before I bought the bike. I still can't figure out why his Indy did not change the pulley and seals then, lazy I guess. Also interesting is I sent a defective guaranteed for life Pingel petcock that wouldn't move back to that guy over a year ago. My local guys would not warranty it here as I did not buy it from them.

The previous owner had given me all of the repair and parts invoices for the bike. I sent the petcock back with a copy of the work order and was told "no problem, I'll take care of it." After numerous phone calls and getting the runaround since May of 07 I gave up on that deal.

I hope that this project goes a little bit smoother.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/29/2008 10:19 AM

olstoney....

Any updates?

What gearing have you finally chosen and have you ridden it yet?   How is it working......we need details....lol....this was a great thread....now some conclusions....lol

Regards,

"Classic"

ps Fuzznut5197 thanks for the RPMCalc (version 1) xls  document it's been quite valuable and an excellent resource as well!!!!  Thank you for posting it. 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/29/2008 12:32 PM

Classic,

It will probably be awhile. Some of the parts are at the powder coater (rear pulley and rear brake mount) and he is somewhat behind. We are still waiting for a frame we took over there three weeks ago and that is a big money build! It is so hot and humid here in the summer that working is a real chore. I might wait until the fall when hurricane season is over, the weather breaks and it cools off.

I'm going to try the 33T/65T combo, nothing to lose and everything to gain. Have not decided yet between the 130 or 140 rear tire, still getting some input on fitment issues. Talked to a very seasoned Indy who knows what's in the engine. He advised to gear it as tall as possible, so the 33/65 combo makes sense. He will allow me to fit one of his used belts to get the proper tooth count and then order a new one for me once we know.

I also need to purchase a few more parts. Long as everything has to come apart we intend to install a totally new primary drive, extra plate Energy One clutch and a Hayden M-6 tensioner. We'll also rebuild the swingarm at the same time, do it once and do it right!!

I have a refinished 9 spoke rear mag, the new 65T pulley, 32T and 33T trans pulleys, new Russell SS Rear rotor and the primary drive parts. Need to decide on staying with the factory Cleveblocks, going to the Delrin Sta-Bo swing arm parts and the 130 vs 140 rear tire.

After that, next project is to rebuild the front end using the Progressive suspension lowering kit and dampeners I have in stock. Once that is done, the bike will have been totally rebuilt. 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/29/2008 11:18 PM

I just finished putting in 3.37 gearing into my 2002 RKC this past weekend and went out for a ride today......My RKC came with 3.15 gearing.....25 comp T, 36 T clutch basket, 32 T transmission pulley and 70 T rear wheel sprocket.  So I took it "back" to like the 1998 - 2001 MM EFI Bagger bikes which ran from the factory with 3.37 gearing, ie: 24 T Comp, 37 T Clutch Shell Basket, 32 T Transmission Pulley, 70 T Rear Wheel Sprocket.....

Let's just say I am very very very happy with the results.....of course this bike weighs in at over 730 lbs so it's a far cry from 564 lbs like our FXR's....so it can handle the "buzz" from the higher RPM's per say.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/5/2008 3:15 AM

Classic,
Happy 4th weekend and glad that you got your conversion done on the RK and are happy with it. I'll keep you informed after we collect the rest of the parts we need and I research this a little more. I'm still up in the air with either the 32T or 33T front pulley. The 32T will defibately make an improvement, but the current 33T will give the highest ratio possible.

Fixed a fuel leak yesterday (bad braided stainless line) and went for a short ride. Damn this bike is strong, I also had it weighed for the hell of it. The bike weighed 540 # full of fuel and I weigh 165. In all fairness there has been some factory junk removed and replaced with lighter weight components.

Like I reiterated before, only want to do this job once for awhile!!

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/26/2008 4:35 AM

Guys,
I needed to revive this thread briefly as my project may be only a couple of weeks away. The owner of the shop that I work at part time has talked me into a new set of Avon Venoms. I have ordered a 140/16 for the rear and a 90/100 for the front, they will be here on the 30th. My extra set of HD 9 spoke mag wheels are refinished and we just need to check the bearings, repack or replace, check the endplay and replace the seals.

We are equipped to make spacers and modify the belt guards if needed, but our measurements indicate that the Avon 140 will fit the FXR. We also checked the distance from the center of the clutch to the center of the rear axle where it is now almost all the way forward with the current 136T belt. That measurement is just under 23 1/2" and according to BDL's chart a 135T belt is the correct length. Looks like we can use the current 136T belt moved back slightly more in the adjuster. This would actually center the wheel more in the fender and give us a little more clearance.

I have also picked up a new aftermarket 89-93 5 speed FXR trans case as I was going to put together a spare trans as finances allow.

Now to my questions,

Classic,
Would you be kind enough to rerun your calculations using the 24T/37T primary, 32T/65T and 33T/65T secondary utilizing the diameter of the Avon 140? I have that in inches, but need to pick it up at the shop today.

Todd,
What are the differences if any in the transmission mainshafts (I have a 93)? I also need to know the difference in thickness between the factory and Ultima trap doors. Thinking about doing your six speed conversion with the Ultima guts in the new trans case when the cash is available.

That will allow me to put together a new six speed trans for less than $700.00. Visually it looks like I only might have to shorten a spacer for the rear exhaust mounting bracket to fit. It also looks like I only have about a 1" clearance from the stock clutch cover to the rear exhaust pipe though. Just want to make sure that my current factory 93 primary drive will work with the Ultima guts.

The assistance would be appreciated. I'd like to get this conversion completed before the Dyno pulls are done. That will be sometime after my Dyno operator returns from Sturgis.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/27/2008 11:57 PM

Olstoney2....

sure glad to help....just need your tire size.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: mpz Sent: 7/28/2008 8:01 PM

I have run Avon Venom 140/90-16 and Dunlop 491 MU(140)/90-16 as well as a Dunlop 404 in both 140 and 130 on my 92 FXRS. Had to trim the belt guard as the belt slides over when backing the bike out of a parking space and rubs making it difficult to walk it backwards. Once that was done, no problems with the Avon or the 491.
The thing to keep in mind is that the sizes don't mean that much. I don't think the Avon was much, if any, bigger than a Dunlop 401 in a 130mm size. And the bigger tires haven't seemed to make any noticeable rpm change on my tach. The 404 did rub on the back bolt for my left side saddlebag support- had to shim that so the bolt didn't go into the fenderwell as far. I do not recommend the 404, it wore out way faster than the others.
I also have 1/2" lower Progressive 12.5" shocks that have not caused any clearance problems with the 140mm tires other than the 404. (You will love Progressive suspension. I also have their fork springs. A big improvement over stock.)
My bike weighs around 650lbs wet, with my saddlebags and tools and stuff on board. I have no problem with the 3.37 gearing, running about 3000rpm at 70. I wouldn't want to have to downshift to fourth all the time.

[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/30/2008 7:02 AM

Classic,
Sorry for the delay, the 140/90HB-16 Venom is 25.60 inches in diameter. Should be here today and thanks again for the help.
Buddy....

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/30/2008 11:50 PM

Olstoney....

here you go.....see attached.

Regards,

"Classic"

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[ClassicRider2002]

From: olstoney2 Sent: 7/31/2008 3:56 AM

Classsic,
Thanks bud, now comparing those numbers to the known factors on your FXR 4 and knowing what you know about my engine build, what do you think? I checked with Comp Cams and the power band on the 5015 is from 2200-6200, sweet spot seems to be at about 3200 and pulls really hard from there. That will change slightly with the exhaust system change that should help the low end some.

We are thinking about going with the 3.08 ratio, but are concerned about the bike being a real dog around town. Our Dyno guy (in Sturgis), says once he tunes the bike changing the ratio will not affect the engine tune, only what gear I'm in and what rpm's I'm turning. I sent Todd an e-mail and am still waiting for a reply on the six speed option.

Looks like we might have enough downtime next week to do the swap.