Anyone have the 2017 touring service manual?

[les]

I've already found a misprint (page 2-26, table 2-9).  I'm reading on page 4-34.  It's about removing and installing the rocker arms.  On removal, they say to have the piston on TDC.  I agree, because it's the way I do twin-cam to relieve as much spring pressure and not warp the rocker bracket.  However, on installation the manual says to have the piston on approximately BDC on the power stroke.  Is this a misprint?  Should it say TDC instead of BDC?

[les]

Maybe I'm just very tired tonight, but on page 4-38 in the INSTALL section of the head.  It's the torque value table...something does not make sense.

Cylinder head bolt first torque    20-30 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt second torque   9-11 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt third torque    25-27 ft/lbs

[les]

Maybe I'm just very tired tonight, but on page 4-38 in the INSTALL section of the head.  It's the torque value table...something does not make sense.

Cylinder head bolt first torque    20-30 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt second torque   9-11 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt third torque    25-27 ft/lbs

Ok, after reading one a bit it says to loosen one full rotation between first and second.  Sorry for jumping the gun.

[les]

Oil pump alignment is different too.  Bottom of page 4-52.


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[les]

Anyone know if the Screamin' Eagle Inner Cam Bearing Remover tool (94114-09) works on the M8 for removing the inner cam bearing?

[PoorUB]

I doubt it, beings the engine was not built when the tool was!

[les]

I doubt it, beings the engine was not built when the tool was!

There seem to be many tools that are the same.  SE Primary locking bar, Kent-Moore inner bearing remover/installer, and others.  I just don't have the bigger collet for the Kent-Moore tool.

[les]

Seems like most (or all) of my six speed tools will work.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Does that manual have a spec for the clutch release plate travel? For example on my '15 Limited it's .078 min, page 5-22 in the manual. Curious as whether it's more on the '17s.

Thanks 

[-deuced-]

I've already found a misprint (page 2-26, table 2-9).  I'm reading on page 4-34.  It's about removing and installing the rocker arms.  On removal, they say to have the piston on TDC.  I agree, because it's the way I do twin-cam to relieve as much spring pressure and not warp the rocker bracket.  However, on installation the manual says to have the piston on approximately BDC on the power stroke.  Is this a misprint?  Should it say TDC instead of BDC?

Haven't seen the manual or the bike but I'd say that's a typo. At TDC on compression stroke there's no real load on the rockers and safe to remove or install.

[-deuced-]

Maybe I'm just very tired tonight, but on page 4-38 in the INSTALL section of the head.  It's the torque value table...something does not make sense.

Cylinder head bolt first torque    20-30 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt second torque   9-11 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt third torque    25-27 ft/lbs

Ok, after reading one a bit it says to loosen one full rotation between first and second.  Sorry for jumping the gun.

Again, haven't seen the manual or the bike but that doesn't sound right. The torque-back off-torque procedure is not unheard of. 20 to 30 ft/lbs is a big range.

[-deuced-]

Anyone know if the Screamin' Eagle Inner Cam Bearing Remover tool (94114-09) works on the M8 for removing the inner cam bearing?

The bearing is the same, so the collet should fit. The bearing position and the cam chest are different. The tool plate won't bolt on but maybe it can be repositioned.

[gymply]

Anyone know if the Screamin' Eagle Inner Cam Bearing Remover tool (94114-09) works on the M8 for removing the inner cam bearing?

The bearing is the same, so the collet should fit. The bearing position and the cam chest are different. The tool plate won't bolt on but maybe it can be repositioned.

No tool plate used with the bearing remover tool so if the bearings are the same size I don't see why it would not work.  Agree that the bearing insertion tool with the plate will probably not work.  If somebody could precision drill and tap the TC tooling plate to make it dual purpose (TC and M-8) that would be a cheaper than buying a new tool.  Not sure if there is enough spacing on the plate to do that though...   

[les]

Does that manual have a spec for the clutch release plate travel? For example on my '15 Limited it's .078 min, page 5-22 in the manual. Curious as whether it's more on the '17s.

Thanks 

I will look it up tonight when I get home from work and post.

[les]

Maybe I'm just very tired tonight, but on page 4-38 in the INSTALL section of the head.  It's the torque value table...something does not make sense.

Cylinder head bolt first torque    20-30 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt second torque   9-11 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt third torque    25-27 ft/lbs

Ok, after reading one a bit it says to loosen one full rotation between first and second.  Sorry for jumping the gun.

Again, haven't seen the manual or the bike but that doesn't sound right. The torque-back off-torque procedure is not unheard of. 20 to 30 ft/lbs is a big range.

This weekend I will type exactly (word for word) what the SM says about this.  Again, new things I've never heard of before.  One additional thing, almost everywhere they include a step about thread conditioning.  They reference the thread conditioning procedure at the beginning of the manual.  It's pretty much what I've been doing all along.

[les]

Anyone know if the Screamin' Eagle Inner Cam Bearing Remover tool (94114-09) works on the M8 for removing the inner cam bearing?

The bearing is the same, so the collet should fit. The bearing position and the cam chest are different. The tool plate won't bolt on but maybe it can be repositioned.

No tool plate used with the bearing remover tool so if the bearings are the same size I don't see why it would not work.  Agree that the bearing insertion tool with the plate will probably not work.  If somebody could precision drill and tap the TC tooling plate to make it dual purpose (TC and M-8) that would be a cheaper than buying a new tool.  Not sure if there is enough spacing on the plate to do that though...   

Actually, it appears that the tool plate is actually the tool they are specifying to use in the SM to install the bearing; also to remove it.  The Kent-Moore tool (which I have) is the same part number as the one in the service manual.  Now, this is a total shock to me.  I still don't believe that tool aligns perfectly because I've not yet actually gotten into an M8 cam chest and done it in real life.  It sure would be nice if someone verified this, and if true that would be great news!

[les]

Anyone know if the Screamin' Eagle Inner Cam Bearing Remover tool (94114-09) works on the M8 for removing the inner cam bearing?

The bearing is the same, so the collet should fit. The bearing position and the cam chest are different. The tool plate won't bolt on but maybe it can be repositioned.

I was thinking the same thing.  The SE remover tool is sort of a stand alone tool, not requiring the plate.  Unless the bearing boss is an irregular shape, I can't see why it won't fit the 1" bearing.  (It's a 1" bearing, right?  They didn't go back to the smaller bearing?)  I know they say to use the Kent-Moore collet that the part number ends with 12A.  I believe that's the upgrade collet for the Kent-Moore tool, which I don't have.  I have the SE remover that augments my Kent-Moore bearing tool.

[les]

I've already found a misprint (page 2-26, table 2-9).  I'm reading on page 4-34.  It's about removing and installing the rocker arms.  On removal, they say to have the piston on TDC.  I agree, because it's the way I do twin-cam to relieve as much spring pressure and not warp the rocker bracket.  However, on installation the manual says to have the piston on approximately BDC on the power stroke.  Is this a misprint?  Should it say TDC instead of BDC?

Haven't seen the manual or the bike but I'd say that's a typo. At TDC on compression stroke there's no real load on the rockers and safe to remove or install.

Of course, thinking the same thing but the thing that nags at me about it being a typo is every other place in every other SM says the words "put it at TDC"...when they want you to put it at TDC.  This says "put it at approximately BDC".  Sort of indicates to me that the author really intended to say "bottom".  But why the hell why?  Installing stock solid pushrods is exactly the same as adjustables in terms of base circles, bleed down, etc..  TDC. 

[-deuced-]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

[glens]

Probably nothing since they're "set for life" during factory assembly...

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Does that manual have a spec for the clutch release plate travel? For example on my '15 Limited it's .078 min, page 5-22 in the manual. Curious as whether it's more on the '17s.

Thanks 

I will look it up tonight when I get home from work and post.

Thanks brother 

[les]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

I believe it said max of .008", but I'll verify tomorrow. 


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[les]

Does that manual have a spec for the clutch release plate travel? For example on my '15 Limited it's .078 min, page 5-22 in the manual. Curious as whether it's more on the '17s.

Thanks 

Page 7-16, Table 7-4:  Minimum Release Plate Movement Specification

.086"
2.18 mm


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[les]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

I believe it said max of .008", but I'll verify tomorrow.

Page 4-34: 

"The maximum allowable lash on a common rocker arm is 0.008" in (0.2 mm).  A measurement in excess requires disassembly and repair of cylinder head assembly."


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[les]

Maybe I'm just very tired tonight, but on page 4-38 in the INSTALL section of the head.  It's the torque value table...something does not make sense.

Cylinder head bolt first torque    20-30 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt second torque   9-11 ft/lbs
Cylinder head bolt third torque    25-27 ft/lbs

Ok, after reading one a bit it says to loosen one full rotation between first and second.  Sorry for jumping the gun.

Again, haven't seen the manual or the bike but that doesn't sound right. The torque-back off-torque procedure is not unheard of. 20 to 30 ft/lbs is a big range.

This weekend I will type exactly (word for word) what the SM says about this.  Again, new things I've never heard of before.  One additional thing, almost everywhere they include a step about thread conditioning.  They reference the thread conditioning procedure at the beginning of the manual.  It's pretty much what I've been doing all along.

Page 4-39:

"
5.  See Figure 4-22.  Tighten head bolts in five stages following sequence shown.

     a.  Tighten to 20-30 ft-lbs (27.1-40.7 Nm)
     b.  Loosen one full rotation.
     c.  Tighten to 9-11 ft-lbs (12.2-14.9 Nm)
     d.  Tighten to 25-27 ft-lbs (33.9-36.6 Nm)
     e.  Final tighten an Cylinder head bolt final torqueadditional 90 degrees-.
"

Yes, step e. is all f#!ked up just like that in the service manual.  My list of misprints is ever growing. 

[les]

Totally off topic, but I worked with JIMS to correct their instruction sheet for their 947 tool.  (Rear Wheel Compensator Bearing Remover and Installer).  If anyone needs the updated PDF file, PM me with your email address.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Does that manual have a spec for the clutch release plate travel? For example on my '15 Limited it's .078 min, page 5-22 in the manual. Curious as whether it's more on the '17s.

Thanks 

Page 7-16, Table 7-4:  Minimum Release Plate Movement Specification

.086"
2.18 mm

That's what I suspected, although I thought it would be a bit more. Still curious to see someone measure the actual travel.

Thanks brother.

[les]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

I believe it said max of .008", but I'll verify tomorrow.

Page 4-34: 

"The maximum allowable lash on a common rocker arm is 0.008" in (0.2 mm).  A measurement in excess requires disassembly and repair of cylinder head assembly."

BTW, here is that entire section from the SM.  (Page 4-34)

"
4.   Check valve lash after lifters have bled down.

      a.  Position crankshaft at TDC of the compression stroke.  All valves will be closed.
      b.  While holding rocker arm against valves, attempt to slide feeler gauge between
           each valve stem tip and rocker arm.
      c.  The maximum allowable lash on a common rocker arm is 0.008" in (0.2 mm).
           A measurement in excess requires disassembly and repair of cylinder head assembly.
"

[les]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

Yes, H-D lives in the stone age.  There is a page that you can hand write comments, cut the page out of the SM, and snail mail into HD.  So, I'll have to scan it first so I can lick and stamp multiple pages into H-D as I continue to find errors.  And why should they not be embarrassed about this method of submitting comments?

[rbabos]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

Yes, H-D lives in the stone age.  There is a page that you can hand write comments, cut the page out of the SM, and snail mail into HD.  So, I'll have to scan it first so I can lick and stamp multiple pages into H-D as I continue to find errors.  And why should they not be embarrassed about this method of submitting comments?

What a bunch of BS. Fix their mistakes on your dime. Nobody can proof read at MoCo?
Ron

[les]

It's ok, there's no need to reprint the SM.
At approximately TDC is another way of saying cam on base circles for that cylinder.
Is there a page about notifying moco of discrepencies?

Oops, my bad on the bearing remover. I thought it used a plate across the cam chest although it seems it was understood what I was getting at.

What does the SM say about clearance between rocker and valve?

Yes, H-D lives in the stone age.  There is a page that you can hand write comments, cut the page out of the SM, and snail mail into HD.  So, I'll have to scan it first so I can lick and stamp multiple pages into H-D as I continue to find errors.  And why should they not be embarrassed about this method of submitting comments?

What a bunch of BS. Fix their mistakes on your dime. Nobody can proof read at MoCo?
Ron

Ron, I agree.  They are not managing this right.  It would be very easy for them to assign different sections to different people for proof reading.  Each person focuses on a particular section, which would increase the quality of the work.  Also, the proof reading could get completed MUCH faster.  If you add on top of that, that the ONLY parts of the SM that would need to be proof read are those that are new, you've got an even more efficient process.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I bought my '15 Limited Low in January '15, the service manual shortly after. The manual is dated 07/14, not thinking any corrections got put in there.

[FSG]

I bought my '15 Limited Low in January '15, the service manual shortly after. The manual is dated 07/14, not thinking any corrections got put in there.

True and while the PM 99456-15 remains at it's original printed revision, corrections were released in Nov 2015, I see no reason for these corrections not to be made available to the manual buyers. 

The corrections are there but go no further than the dealers, there should be a law that says the information be made available to the buying public, perhaps there is.   

See correction example below.

[les]

So, FSG, what you're saying is that H-D already has us in the computer and keeps a database of us and our associated purchases.  What they could do is also capture our email addresses (they already have our phone numbers and computer memory is pretty cheap these days).  Then when there is an update to the service manuals, their automated systems could send out emails to those who have purchased that exact part number?

But you're missing something.  That's not nearly as important as the spam we get from H-D about this weekend's chili hotdog festival. 

[les]

Ok, I found some scissors and cut out the comments page in the SM.  Then I found a pencil and hand wrote my suggested corrections in the limited space on the form.  I addressed an envelope.  Now I'm standing in the front yard waiting for the Pony Express to come by and ride the letter up to Milwaukee.

Wait...the Pony Express is still in operation...isn't it?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Ok, I found some scissors and cut out the comments page in the SM.  Then I found a pencil and hand wrote my suggested corrections in the limited space on the form.  I addressed an envelope.  Now I'm standing in the front yard waiting for the Pony Express to come by and ride the letter up to Milwaukee.

Wait...the Pony Express is still in operation...isn't it?

Make sure you make a copy of the page before you send it off, you may need it again

[les]

Ok, I found some scissors and cut out the comments page in the SM.  Then I found a pencil and hand wrote my suggested corrections in the limited space on the form.  I addressed an envelope.  Now I'm standing in the front yard waiting for the Pony Express to come by and ride the letter up to Milwaukee.

Wait...the Pony Express is still in operation...isn't it?

Make sure you make a copy of the page before you send it off, you may need it again

I scanned it.  I also have more envelopes and stamps.  [emoji12]


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[FSG]

Les            


but seriously, I should be able to walk in to the dealer where I bought my SM, PM and EDM (maybe even have them under my arm), plonk them down on the counter and ask for a hard copy of the manual corrections

there should be a consumer law that entitles me to the information, perhaps there is and for something to do this coming week I'm going to find out, here in Oz at least and also take my manuals to the dealer and ask for the corrections

[les]

Les            


but seriously, I should be able to walk in to the dealer where I bought my SM, PM and EDM (maybe even have them under my arm), plonk them down on the counter and ask for a hard copy of the manual corrections

there should be a consumer law that entitles me to the information, perhaps there is and for something to do this coming week I'm going to find out, here in Oz at least and also take my manuals to the dealer and ask for the corrections

Actually, I am serious.  We live in the digital age.  H-D's IT department needs to come into the 21st century. 


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[Rockout Rocker Products]

Les            


but seriously, I should be able to walk in to the dealer where I bought my SM, PM and EDM (maybe even have them under my arm), plonk them down on the counter and ask for a hard copy of the manual corrections

there should be a consumer law that entitles me to the information, perhaps there is and for something to do this coming week I'm going to find out, here in Oz at least and also take my manuals to the dealer and ask for the corrections

Actually, I am serious.  We live in the digital age.  H-D's IT department needs to come into the 21st century.

I just checked the front page of my 1991 Softail service manual where you clip out the page & send in corrections... the mailing address/PO box number is exactly the same   

[Lucky Pete]

Maybe we need to cut the MoCo a little slack here

Cant be too many vehicle manufacturers that even release factory service manuals at this level of detail to retail customers? Do the car guys? Japanese manufacturers?

[les]

Maybe we need to cut the MoCo a little slack here

Cant be too many vehicle manufacturers that even release factory service manuals at this level of detail to retail customers? Do the car guys? Japanese manufacturers?

Personally, I'm not so put off by the relatively significant number of errors I found in just one reading, but rather the stupid manner in which to submit those comments to MoCo. 


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[les]

A little update...  I filled out the comments form and mailed it in.  I included the question about the BDC thing.  So, hopefully we will hear back if "they" think it's an error or not, and if not then why they think they are correct.

I've got another batch of errors queue up, and of course another envelope and stamp.  Now, where did I put my pencil?   

[Xyzzy]

Maybe we need to cut the MoCo a little slack here

Cant be too many vehicle manufacturers that even release factory service manuals at this level of detail to retail customers? Do the car guys? Japanese manufacturers?

Honda has incredible service manuals for their motorcycles, which are contracted out to Helm.

Yamaha and KTM have very nice service manuals for their motocross bikes. The KTM ones are PDFs.

I also have a very nice Can-Am service manual for my Spyder.

My 2015 HD touring service manual is decent. I can still use it for non-engine stuff since that hasn't changed much.

[FSG]

Maybe we need to cut the MoCo a little slack here

Cant be too many vehicle manufacturers that even release factory service manuals at this level of detail to retail customers? Do the car guys? Japanese manufacturers?

No slack given, Yamaha released very good manuals in the 70's, they were a must have in my dirt racing days.

[-deuced-]

Curious, what's the run out spec on the crank?

[les]

A couple of tables out of the manual.

[-deuced-]

Thanks les. 10 thou, eh? I was expecting less.

[rbabos]

Thanks les. 10 thou, eh? I was expecting less.

At .010 they save a bundle on warranty claims. Gotten away with it this long, about 07-08 when it changed.  I'm sure they will keep this stone age amount of runout since they can get away with it. Oh wait, the last 100 years it was .003 Progress, I guess.
Ron

[les]

Idea...   Someone should start a post for folks to post their runouts as they go into the cam chest.  Then we can compare to what's typically found with the twin cams.

[Tattoo]

Idea...   Someone should start a post for folks to post their runouts as they go into the cam chest.  Then we can compare to what's typically found with the twin cams.

or we should start a post on how many have failed.  I will go first...  4 in the 17 years I have been at this dealership with over 500 units sold each year. 

[PoorUB]

Maybe we need to cut the MoCo a little slack here

Cant be too many vehicle manufacturers that even release factory service manuals at this level of detail to retail customers? Do the car guys? Japanese manufacturers?

I have bought factory service manuals for a couple of the cars I have owned. No problem getting them at all. You just need to know where to go. GM has a web site to order manuals, I forget where, but I have a buddy that works parts at a dealer that hooked me up.

[PoorUB]

Idea...   Someone should start a post for folks to post their runouts as they go into the cam chest.  Then we can compare to what's typically found with the twin cams.

or we should start a post on how many have failed.  I will go first...  4 in the 17 years I have been at this dealership with over 500 units sold each year. 

That can not be true!! We all know that HD builds crankshafts out of silly putty and the majority of them fail!

[SLAATY]

GM has phased out manuals for the most part. Home is now a monitor and keyboard, so the online manual is updated as soon as the glitch is verified.

I agree Harley should provide updates to consumers. If they can't / won't reach us individually, we should have the authority to request data from our svc. dept's.

We pay for the info, and as such have a right to the most current updates.