Oil pump alignment procedure

[les]

From pages 4-52 and 4-53 of the 2017 Touring Model Service Manual.

[FSG]

Note:  Location 3 is the Dowel and it's in the camplate not the crankcase

[les]

Just one dowel?


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[FSG]

yes, only one, 16589-99A same as used on the TCs

[rbabos]

Just one dowel?

2-d claims slip cam plate onto the two dowels. One would be useless for alignment.
Ron

[FSG]

One would be useless for alignment.

not true

[rbabos]

One would be useless for alignment.

not true

Can't see one working as it would rely on other components to stop rotation like the slop in the bolt holes. Cam bore alignment would not be accomplished close enough.  Normal is two and it clearly states that in the instructions. Could be another one of those SM errors?
Ron

[les]

Well, one of them is wrong because on page 30 of the 2017 touring PARTS manual it shows a count of one dowel. 


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[koko3052]

Hope that someone tells us soon that has had visual confirmation!

[les]

Hope that someone tells us soon that has had visual confirmation!

Agreed because right now we are just working on the M8 by paper. 


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[les]

So, it appears no one is going to bite on step 3.b. It's the reason I posted.  Just one turn?   What happened to keep rotating while you tighten?


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[FSG]

There's only one dowel, location 3

The only movement possible IMO will be in the arc created through the crank with 3 being the center

Les I don't see a need for more than the one turn, but for sure I see no harm in 2 or more or continuing to rotate while tightening

[rbabos]

There's only one dowel, location 3

The only movement possible IMO will be in the arc created through the crank with 3 being the center

Les I don't see a need for more than the one turn, but for sure I see no harm in 2 or more or continuing to rotate while tightening

I suppose that one locator would work. Agree on more then one rev for pump alignment, just like before. I still feel only one dowel is half baked.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

I suppose that one locator would work. Agree on more then one rev for pump alignment, just like before. I still feel only one dowel is half baked.
Ron

It's fully baked.. You just don't understand machining tolerances and what they are trying to do... Think about it.  Look art the position of the dowel referenced to the cam and crank holes in the plate.

Look at the bore where the crank goes through on a few Twincam plates..

[les]

FSG, looks like you pounded that cat flat in terms of one or two dowels.

Ron, it might not be so bad with only one dowel.  If I recall, Fueling pump/plate instructions ask that the entire cam plate and oil pump be tightened down during the oil pump alignment procedure.  It appears that the new M8 instructions are similar.  This actually might align the entire system a bit better; pump/plate as an integrated unit.  I do agree with rotating more than one rotation, but perhaps the SM is specifying some sort of a minimum we must do.

I will be documenting and submitting, yet another, error in the SM to MoCo.  (Step 2.d.).  I think I'm up to 7 or 8 errors so far.

[les]

FSG...favor please.  As you know, some of us are "stud/nut" freaks.  Can you take a photo of the other side of the cam plate (the dowel hole) to let us see if the 12-point nut looks like it will fit; like they do in the twin-cam plate?

Also, do you think there will be any interference if we stud hole #3?

[06roadglide]

I don't think you'll need to stud that hole. The dowel is in the plate so threads aren't compromised in that hole now. It's just like all other holes.

Edit

Scratch that!!  I just looked at it again.

[les]

I don't think you'll need to stud that hole. The dowel is in the plate so threads aren't compromised in that hole now. It's just like all other holes.

Edit

Scratch that!!  I just looked at it again.

Funny, but that is exactly what I also initially said to myself.  Then I looked again too.  Assuming there are no interference problems, I will make it my normal practice to stud hole #3.  This is unless the bolt is longer and they've provided for a crap load more of threads to bite into than the twin cams.

[les]

FSG, yet another favor please.  In looking at the photo of the inside of the cam chest, it appears that the SE bearing remover tool should work.  In other words, the tube of the tool being able to set flat on the casing around the bearing boss.  It's hard to tell from the photo, but seems to look that way.  Do you agree? 

[-deuced-]

I think we're still missing some information here. I can't see how one dowel can hold the plate to prevent camshaft movement during install. If the camshaft gets cocked at all then the lifters won't run flat on the lobes. I wondered about a scavenge spigot on the oil pump as a pseudo camplate dowel. No, that would make like a hinge where the oil pump and camplate meet which might be ok for oil pump alignment but if the camplate moves it will affect camshaft alignment. What about where those bosses are machined, where the camplate screws go. No, that's just to get the camplate flat. I doubt those shoulders hold the camplate, I can't see manufacturing tolerances being precise enough.
Step 2c mentions a feed port spigot on the camplate.    Yep, can see the recess in the case for an o-ring but hang on, I don't see any spigot on the camplate in the pic

Another thing. If I want the oil pump to move during install procedure engine rotation, is 5ft/lbs a bit tight for the screws? Should step 3a be 12-16in/lbs?

How much movement are we talking about? What's the run out spec for the crank?

[FSG]

FSG...favor please.  As you know, some of us are "stud/nut" freaks.  Can you take a photo of the other side of the cam plate (the dowel hole) to let us see if the 12-point nut looks like it will fit; like they do in the twin-cam plate?

Also, do you think there will be any interference if we stud hole #3?

Plenty of room for the 12-point nut, but if the stud is too long it will interfere with the cam chain

Cap Screw P/N 4740A (1/4-20 X 1-1/4 Grade is used on the camplate and cam cover, 15 in total.

Cap Screw P/N 4822A  (1/4-20 X 2-3/4) is used on the Oil Pump, 4 in total.

Note: there will be no dimpled lifter bores.

[FSG]

FSG, yet another favor please.  In looking at the photo of the inside of the cam chest, it appears that the SE bearing remover tool should work.  In other words, the tube of the tool being able to set flat on the casing around the bearing boss.  It's hard to tell from the photo, but seems to look that way.  Do you agree?

Yes

[FSG]

I can't see how one dowel can hold the plate to prevent camshaft movement during install.

I don't see the problem           stick the cam in there and slap on the camplate   

[rbabos]

I think we're still missing some information here. I can't see how one dowel can hold the plate to prevent camshaft movement during install. If the camshaft gets cocked at all then the lifters won't run flat on the lobes. I wondered about a scavenge spigot on the oil pump as a pseudo camplate dowel. No, that would make like a hinge where the oil pump and camplate meet which might be ok for oil pump alignment but if the camplate moves it will affect camshaft alignment. What about where those bosses are machined, where the camplate screws go. No, that's just to get the camplate flat. I doubt those shoulders hold the camplate, I can't see manufacturing tolerances being precise enough.
Step 2c mentions a feed port spigot on the camplate.    Yep, can see the recess in the case for an o-ring but hang on, I don't see any spigot on the camplate in the pic

Another thing. If I want the oil pump to move during install procedure engine rotation, is 5ft/lbs a bit tight for the screws? Should step 3a be 12-16in/lbs?

How much movement are we talking about? What's the run out spec for the crank?

You are worrying too much. The second alignment hole is the pinion. Don't let the fact that most cranks have some runout keep it from achieving perfect alignment. In the end, they are still sloppy engines so any amount of error from trying to center the plate with normal minimal crank runout won't amount to much error at the cam bores over that distance, especially if you stay within the highly refined small amount of .012-.013 or whatever the hell it is now.
Ron

[koko3052]

I think we're still missing some information here. I can't see how one dowel can hold the plate to prevent camshaft movement during install. If the camshaft gets cocked at all then the lifters won't run flat on the lobes. I wondered about a scavenge spigot on the oil pump as a pseudo camplate dowel. No, that would make like a hinge where the oil pump and camplate meet which might be ok for oil pump alignment but if the camplate moves it will affect camshaft alignment. What about where those bosses are machined, where the camplate screws go. No, that's just to get the camplate flat. I doubt those shoulders hold the camplate, I can't see manufacturing tolerances being precise enough.
Step 2c mentions a feed port spigot on the camplate.    Yep, can see the recess in the case for an o-ring but hang on, I don't see any spigot on the camplate in the pic

Another thing. If I want the oil pump to move during install procedure engine rotation, is 5ft/lbs a bit tight for the screws? Should step 3a be 12-16in/lbs?

How much movement are we talking about? What's the run out spec for the crank?

You are worrying too much. The second alignment hole is the pinion. Don't let the fact that most cranks have some runout keep it from achieving perfect alignment. In the end, they are still sloppy engines so any amount of error from trying to center the plate with normal minimal crank runout won't amount to much error at the cam bores over that distance, especially if you stay within the highly refined small amount of .012-.013 or whatever the hell it is now.
Ron

Only god knows, so far, what the runout will be! Using pinion for the second hole....
I still think that I'll run my '05 until the wheels fall off, bolt them back on & run it some more.

[les]

The cam is very close to hole #3.  Therefore, supported by the dowel with very little leverage on the other 5 cam plate bolts.  The plate should hold fast, and with the alignment procedure, should work great.  Only one dowel needed with this single cam setup.

[FSG]

    one dowel per cam