TIMING....... IS EVERYTHING !

[Sonny S.]

Interested in sharing your timing table, ignition module settings or just any timing related information ?

Please list complete build info, including CR, and CCP if you have it.
What octane fuel are you using ?
If you know what altitude you are at that would be great too.

TIA,
Sonny

[whittlebeast]

I am ruuning fairy close to the recomendations of this document.  This is not even remotly close to the stock Harley map that knocked on a hot day like a can of marbles, even on 93 RON fuel.  My bike is a totally stock Sportster except for the TTS/Sert.

http://www.techbill.net/Harley/docs/Sportster_timing.doc

AW

[whittlebeast]

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/SparkAdvFrontGraph.jpg

I am running the map on the top.  I run about 28 degrees max timing in the entire center of the map.  The upper left section of my map to to get the main timing maps to play well with the closed throttle timing table.

On the bottom is the TTS Stage One map.

AW

[Sonny S.]

Going to ask for help here.

05, I pulled up your timing table with the DTT program, and I was trying to see if I could post it in full view.
I don't know how to do that...do you ?   Anyone ?
I was even trying to just copy and past the #'s without the 3D graph....not good at this.

Sonny

[FSG]

Going to ask for help here.

05, I pulled up your timing table with the DTT program, and I was trying to see if I could post it in full view.
I don't know how to do that...do you ?   Anyone ?
I was even trying to just copy and past the #'s without the 3D graph....not good at this.

Sonny

It's an ASCII File so either open in a Text Editor (Notepad see below) or Excel with {space} delimiters.

GRID 16 8
-1
500 1
0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6.16 6.512 7.04 7.216 9.152 13.2 17.6 23.232
10.56 10.208 11.088 12.672 14.432 17.776 21.12 24.992
14.784 13.376 13.728 15.136 17.6 20.592 23.056 25.168
19.008 16.368 16.368 17.776 19.888 22.4 23.936 25.52
21 19.536 18.48 19.712 22 23.936 24.992 26.048
23 21 21.12 21.472 23.936 24.992 26.048 26.928
24 23 22.6 23.584 25.344 26.048 26.928 27.984
25 24 24.4 25.52 26.752 27.456 28.512 29.568
26 25 26 27 27.984 29.04 29.92 30.976
27 27 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 30.976 32.032
28.4 27.2 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.032 33.088
28.6 27.6 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 33.968
28.8 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
29 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
29 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
!Module Parameters
!InitialTiming:  0
!RearOffset:  0
!RPMLimit:  6500
!CrankRevs:  1
!FixedLimFlag: True
!SelEEPROMTblFlag: True
!FixedInitialTmgFlag: False
!VSSFreq:  1375
!TachEnableFlag: False
!Version: RACE

[FSG]

I remember someone did post it as it appears on the DTT PC link program on the old site once...but FSG can't do it I'm at a loss 

all my stuff is Carb, don't have the DTT as I don't need it.

[Sonny S.]

05,

What octane fuel was it tuned with ?

FSG... Thanks !!

Whittlebeast... great info..thanks !!

[Sonny S.]

05,

What was it you were looking for ?
This is a good thread, just not going to get as many hit's as  " what socks should I wear ? ".
Not many understand timing or have any idea where the timing is set for their bike...... hang in there.
I'll try to post something soon. Gotta get DTT info from my old PC switched over.

Sonny

[blackhillsken]

Here's some explanation of why higher timing numbers (in the right areas) help.  This is a carburated module example, but the same timing suggestions apply to injection.
More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.  Very helpful when you're stuck in traffic.  That's one spot the available maps using the module dip switches fall short.  When you use the switches to come up with a map that doesn't ping and gives good wide open power, it is lazy and retarded at the low end.  That's where a custom map can help.  If you hook up a scanalyzer and look at the timing a big twin idles at with stock ignition, it's around 26-30 degrees (earlier Twin Cams, anyway).  No reason you can't do that with adjustable modules too.  It's not going to ping when it's idling.

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

The other area that benefits from higher timing is when coasting down from higher rpm (where some motors will pop & backfire).  More timing there will usually lessen the popping in the exhaust.  Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.  Carbed or injected both benefit.

When a tuner says "timing is maxed at 26 degrees wide open" he means that at the lowest manifold vacuum (when the throttle is wide open)  (see the bottom of the attached graph), the timing goes no higher than 26 degrees.

The "roll-on" throttle area is where most pinging issues occur.  It's sometimes helpful to drop the timing there to stop pinging when you roll into it (say around 60 mph in 5th gear to pass someone).

FSG,
DTT actually produced a carbed bike adjustable ignition module before they had their injection stuff.  I know because I tested one of the first units for Doug from Head Quarters.  They are still my favorite carbed bike ignition.





[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Ken,

Thank you so much for chiming in....was hoping you would. 
I never fail to learn from your tuning methods..... that's why I'm still gonna bring you my dresser when I get it back together...lol.   

Sonny

[drhooligan]

Any PCIII timing tables for a 103" @ 10:1?  Thanks, I'd really like to see what other guys are doing with these. I've read some threads that suggest retarding the timing from stock when doing a BB upgrade.

[whittlebeast]

Ken

We appear to be running very similar timing.  For fun I will try your "more timing near idle" trick when I get a chance.

Here is my map at about the same angle and scale as yours.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/FrtTiming.jpg

Here is the stock timing map below.  This map was un-rideable on a hot day even on 93 octane.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/FrtTimingStock.jpg

AW

[Scramjet]

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

Ken, I am trying to understand this comment above.  At the risk of sounding ignorant, how would less timing=less emissions?  I thought an earlier (more advanced) timing event would promote a more complete burn.  Therefore, more timing = less emmissions.

B

[ToBeFrank]

It's not going to ping when it's idling.

Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.

How so? You can still start combustion too early at idle and decel with too much timing advance. I understand you can get away with more timing because it's not at load, but it seems to me you could still make it ping there with too much timing.

[ViennaHog]

Little fuel at idle or decel => very little pressure build up by the limited combustion=> no ping.

clear as mud?

[ToBeFrank]

Little fuel at idle or decel => very little pressure build up by the limited combustion=> no ping.

clear as mud?

Ok, so if we run 45* timing advance at idle, it won't ping?

[whittlebeast]

Frank

I was questioning the the 40 degrees of overrun timing a few weeks ago.  As a test, I went to 20 degrees of over-run timing and found that the bike felt a little better with the huge 40 degree timing.....  A little strange.  I concluded that the high pressure caused by the motor firing way before TDC resulted in some push back against the crank before TDC and that gave the motor plenty of time to burn the charge.  The catch in this is that the Sporty has a 1 ms min pulse pidth that I would think drive the mixture fat in over-run.  I have not bothered to mount the wideband as the bike rides just fine with the huge timing.

At idle, none of this logic applies.

AW

[blackhillsken]

Scramjet,
Less timing results in less hydrocarbon emissions.  True, less timing makes the engine sluggish and results in less gas mileage, but the emission police want low hydrocarbons, so less timing is the cure.  Back in the late 70s the car manufacturers started dropping timing at idle so the vehicles would pass the idle emissions testing.  Pre-smog cars used to have full vacuum advance in the distributor at idle, and they idled great, but emissions laws caused the engineers to move the higher timing (from vacuum) to off-idle so the idle emissions were lower.  You didn't get the benefit of vacuum-increased timing until you stepped on the gas.

Frank,
To "ping" you need some cylinder pressure.  Virtually no cylinder pressure during decel (coasting down closed throttle in any gear from, say, 3-4000 rpm.  Over advancing timing at idle will only result in the motor idling crappy.  You will have passed the sweet spot and the engine will be fighting itself, but not pinging (detonating) as they define it (spark knock).
"If we run 45 degrees timing advance" at idle (in a Harley), I don't know how it would run.  I've not gone above 30 as that's what I observed in an earlier (pre-emissions) stock timing map.

Frank

I was questioning the the 40 degrees of overrun timing a few weeks ago.  As a test, I went to 20 degrees of over-run timing and found that the bike felt a little better with the huge 40 degree timing.....  A little strange.  I concluded that the high pressure caused by the motor firing way before TDC resulted in some push back against the crank before TDC and that gave the motor plenty of time to burn the charge.  The catch in this is that the Sporty has a 1 ms min pulse pidth that I would think drive the mixture fat in over-run.  I have not bothered to mount the wideband as the bike rides just fine with the huge timing.

At idle, none of this logic applies.

AW,

No disrespect, but for me, that's over analyzing.  Just my opinion, so, like I said, no disrespect.

[GoFast.....]

Here's some explanation of why higher timing numbers (in the right areas) help.  This is a carburated module example, but the same timing suggestions apply to injection.
More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.  Very helpful when you're stuck in traffic.  That's one spot the available maps using the module dip switches fall short.  When you use the switches to come up with a map that doesn't ping and gives good wide open power, it is lazy and retarded at the low end.  That's where a custom map can help.  If you hook up a scanalyzer and look at the timing a big twin idles at with stock ignition, it's around 26-30 degrees (earlier Twin Cams, anyway).  No reason you can't do that with adjustable modules too.  It's not going to ping when it's idling.

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

The other area that benefits from higher timing is when coasting down from higher rpm (where some motors will pop & backfire).  More timing there will usually lessen the popping in the exhaust.  Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.  Carbed or injected both benefit.

When a tuner says "timing is maxed at 26 degrees wide open" he means that at the lowest manifold vacuum (when the throttle is wide open)  (see the bottom of the attached graph), the timing goes no higher than 26 degrees.

The "roll-on" throttle area is where most pinging issues occur.  It's sometimes helpful to drop the timing there to stop pinging when you roll into it (say around 60 mph in 5th gear to pass someone).

FSG,
DTT actually produced a carbed bike adjustable ignition module before they had their injection stuff.  I know because I tested one of the first units for Doug from Head Quarters.  They are still my favorite carbed bike ignition.

you are right because I downloaded a map for my carb WT BUILD ON the DTT IGNITION

[Scramjet]

Scramjet,
Less timing results in less hydrocarbon emissions.  True, less timing makes the engine sluggish and results in less gas mileage, but the emission police want low hydrocarbons, so less timing is the cure.  Back in the late 70s the car manufacturers started dropping timing at idle so the vehicles would pass the idle emissions testing.  Pre-smog cars used to have full vacuum advance in the distributor at idle, and they idled great, but emissions laws caused the engineers to move the higher timing (from vacuum) to off-idle so the idle emissions were lower.  You didn't get the benefit of vacuum-increased timing until you stepped on the gas.

Ken, no disrespect intended but it still makes more common sense to me that an earlier (more advanced) spark event would reduce emissions not increase them.  An earlier spark event would promote more complete combustion before the exhaust valve opens as the ignition would occurr earlier.

B

[ToBeFrank]

To "ping" you need some cylinder pressure.  Virtually no cylinder pressure during decel (coasting down closed throttle in any gear from, say, 3-4000 rpm.  Over advancing timing at idle will only result in the motor idling crappy.  You will have passed the sweet spot and the engine will be fighting itself, but not pinging (detonating) as they define it (spark knock).

Got it. My confusion was in the definition of pinging, but I understand what you mean now.

[blackhillsken]

Scramjet,
I agree with you that it would seem a smoother, more powerful running motor should produce less emissions, but not always. I found some technical info on the late timing / reduced hydrocarbons thing from an MIT study.

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/30346/61134361.pdf?sequence=1

Look through pages 50-55.

[Scramjet]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

[blackhillsken]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

Right.  And, in my opinion, Harley's late timing is one of the reasons you might see pipes glow red near the head.  Usually, that problem goes away with a good tune.

[Scramjet]

Ken,

Thanks for the insight.  My 07 had the glowing pipes when new.  It was pretty much solved with a/c, intake, cam, exhaust and PCIII.  I will try some timing changes with the TTS based on this.

B