TIMING....... IS EVERYTHING !

[fuzznut5197]

Wow, that's some system! I would have no clue what to do with all that data 

[crazycalvin]

>>What controller are you using for the widebands?<<

Homebrew/web DIY controller that was originally designed for the 2 cell NTK sensors used on the lean burn Honda Civics. It's been re-designed a couple of times since the first iteration.
Thinking about doing something else using some of the commercial controllers that are now readily available ... but I don't want one that uses the common "inexpensive" Bosch wideband sensor.

Not trying to jack this thread, if anyone objects I will remove my posts regarding the DA stuff.

Ed, No objection here!  I would enjoy reading more on how you did your DA stuff and enjoy reading and seeing how others did/do it also.  I personally think we should have a sticky in the AFR/Tuning Zone for the DIY DA "stuff".  Later, Calvin.

[Sonny S.]

I have no objection of it being in this thread but if there is going to be a lot of info posted it would make a great thread on it's own.

" Data Acquisition " or something

[ederdelyi]

Moved my DA related posts to the "DA" thread. Others may do as they please.

[05FLHTC]

Some DTT Map INFO copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

The timing curves on the DTT module along with the directions state & infer you to believe that there is a deceleration timing curve that you can adjust that is different from cruise timing curve, well that’s NOT TRUE. Before you throw me under the buss with all you who have no issues with ping, have you ever really dumped the data to determine where that module is setting your timing at while cruising down the road?

I researched my DTT & dumped many sets of real time data from my bike along with some data from other owners DTT modules on their bikes. I also made many calls around the states to some big name performance shops and called that arrogant Chris that wrote the Crane & DTT software program, they are one in the same, crane & DTT ignition modules, what a piece a work Chris is.  

My findings…very few folks have ever dumped the actual DTT data, so it’s no surprise that you may not be able to tune the ping out with the DTT, I’m surprised anyone has been able to do so if your CR is more then 10 to 1 using & following the directions from DTT.  The maps are NO where near what they imply when you dump the data & compare the actual manifold MAP pressure to the DTT map.  "Potty mouth" you can’t even adjust that dam DTT map where you really need to…  

05

[05FLHTC]

More DTT map info copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

The very top row here in this pic would suggest the DTT map has a decel timing curve, both by reading the grab DTT instructions & by looking at this attached map.

However after dumping actual data as I stated above, your actual cruise manifold pressure & timing is set by the numbers in the very top row of the map, not at all what you would be led to believe. That MAP pressure min in the DTT starts at 16HG, typical cruise manifold pressure is about 12HG. Again like I stated, you can't even adjust the dam DTT map in that range. All of the canned settings will place your cruise timing way higher then my motor wanted/needed when running down the road at 65mph. Fine and dandy if your running near stock compression but not worth a fart if your at 10.5CR or more.

Regardless of the manifold pressure scaling that is used, the actual timing number can easily be verified by dumping the log data from the DTT module using the cables & software.   

I would like to thank the forum members here, you know who you are, that suggested to me to utilize the software dumps back a couple years ago when I first started adjusting my timing map in my 10.7CR bagger. Without that suggestion & software capability, my motor would still be running hotter then a fricken fire cracker & pinging it's arse off while at light cruise. Many thanks to you

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[05FLHTC]

Copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

Please be patient with me.  I have a DTT with 10.7:1 cr and I got a custom map from ejk dyna that works great on my build.  No pinging.  But this is really interesting to me since i am planning a 117 with 11.5:1 cr.

So the DTT curve starts at 16 in hg which I assumed was barely opening the throttle.  But you have found that cruise is actually well below that. I always wondered what the DTT did from 16 down to zero.  Are you saying that the timing from 16 down to zero is the same as the value in the first row of the table?

Thanks,

Sean

Yes that is correct, the cruise timing is the number in the top first row of the table. So like with mine, a majority of the custom maps I obtained had my motor timing advanced when cruising at 70mph into the high 30's or some maps even 40 degrees advance, that was way to much advance for mine, had my arse & oil temp running hot enough to cook the family jewels.   

Edit addition, attached here is my current DTT map that I'm running in my 103" bagger, Tman625 cams, 3.37 final, V&H Propipe with a S&S G carb. 207CCP & 10.7CR


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Good info 05 

Us DTT guys are left in the dark 

[Sonny S.]

Here are the 4 ignition maps from the SE Adjustable Ignition that I have converted to DTT.
You will have to have the DTT software to open these.
You can download it here http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_download.html
Attached is also the SE instruction manual as a reference for the curve recommendations.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[05FLHTC]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & give it one more try someday if I get bored Sure would be nice if I could program my DTT table down to 12HG map...

The DTT module can be re-programed for an optional EX extended table software version, that would allow us additional lower map parameters into the standard race table. Right now mine runs to good to fudge with it.

[Sonny S.]

Thanks 05 

The DTT will only go to 45* max, where as the SE uses up to 50*. I don't see where we would need 50* timing in those columns so I put 45*...shouldn't matter though.

[Sonny S.]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & try it again 

Pretty interesting huh ?

[05FLHTC]

Pretty interesting huh ?

Sure is...it's hard for me to fathom is being accomplished with all that timing???

[Sonny S.]

Pretty interesting huh ?

Sure is...it's hard for me to fathom is being accomplished with all that timing???

Ken goes over that starting in post #8

[Sonny S.]

Something I find interesting...
Curve # 2 of the SE module is about equal to a 5 & 0 switch setting on the DTT ...hmmmm

[Sonny S.]

Something I found interesting when reading about this ignition system

http://www.amm.haan.de/P3/PDF/p3_manual.pdf

Rules of Thumb:
The louder the exhaust, the lower the max. advance should be. If exhaust is silent, you can have more advance.


The green knob sets the max. advance:
0 -> 26,0° for open pipes,very high comp., turbo
1 -> 30,0° for open pipes, high compression
2 -> 34,0° for stock or supertrapp-style exhaust
3 -> 38,0° for lightweight bikes with stock or supertr. exh.

The yellow knob adjusts the rise of the curve.
0 -> very slow rise -> for turbo or very high compression
1 -> slow rise -> for open pipes and heavy bike touring
2 -> medium rise -> for sport exhaust, supertr. style
3 -> fast rise -> for racing applications only

[kdietz]

Is it safe to say that you can advance timing until you hear pinging or register spark knock with Twin Scan II+?

I can easily get spark knock to register at High load areas of Roll On and WOT and make corrections to eliminate, but I'm not getting any spark knock activity in the 30-50 kPa low load areas. Should I keep advancing timing in the low load areas as long as I'm not getting spark knock or is there a practical point to stop.

I can set timing in the low 40's at 30-60 kPa.....2000 to 3000 rpms with no spark activity and smooth running....OK?

[hotroadking]

Wondering if some of the idle problems the 103 Iv'e worked on may be timing related.

[05FLHTC]

How much timing are you running at idle King?

[kansasroadking]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & give it one more try someday if I get bored Sure would be nice if I could program my DTT table down to 12HG map...

The DTT module can be re-programed for an optional EX extended table software version, that would allow us additional lower map parameters into the standard race table. Right now mine runs to good to fudge with it.

I tried to load an ex table into the race version (tc88a) module, it did not accept the upload  

[05FLHTC]

You are correct, the EX version requires a software upgrade to use. You can contact Daytona Twin Tech, I think Sonny has done that & they will reflash your module to except the EX table. Why on Gods green earth it does not come that way to begin with who knows???

If ya call down & talk to (Chris tech line at DTT) be sure to take a couple of big gulps of whiskey first, your gonna need it. If you look up arrogant in the Webster dictionary you will see a pic of Chris   

[mayor]

How much timing are you running at idle King?

how much is an acceptable level of timing at idle?  is there a range to shoot for (high/low)?  I can't really control that on my SE adjustable (carb) ignition, but I was worried that I might be running too high of idle advance if I advance a lazier curve to bring my WOT where I'm at now (to limit timing in my roll on areas).   

[05FLHTC]

Here is what I have determined with my idle timing, this on my 2005 EG classic running 103 at 10.8 CR/CCP 208, S&S G carb, Tman 625 cams & SE performance heads worked over & grooved by WFO Larry 

I have run my idle timing as low as 15 degrees & determined my idle quality to be poor, more erratic/rough & seemed hot by feel of my arse.

I'm currenlty running 24 degrees idle timing, when comparing this to 15 degrees my idle seems smoother, runs cooler by feel & just seems to be more stable, happier in general.

Wish I had some scientific data as support these findings to offer here, but I only have trial & error to share. As a matter of fact I wish there was some scientific data anywhere for us to apply with timing in general

[FLTRI]

As a matter of fact I wish there was some scientific data anywhere for us to apply with timing in general

There is. The problem is the equipment necessary to measure timing and how it affects combustion is out of range for most budgets.
Measuring combustion pressure is the best and IMO, the only way to be sure of best timing for each and every tunable cell available to us.
Fortunately we have a plethora of timing maps available to try to see which "feel" the best.
I've spent hours and hours on the dyno trying to quantify timing changes (other than WOT) and have come to the conclusion there is no way to be precise without measuring combustion pressure, not to mention how inlet temp affects combustion temps and how that affects timing strategy.
Wish there was a good, effective, and economical way to absolutely quantify timing and assure no detonation when temps rise, but AKAIK there isn't.
Bob

[hotroadking]

I am going to check the map tonight we had not messed with timing on the tune.

But it's going to be worth a look.