Non-linear throttle and other M8 tuning questions

[Xyzzy]

I installed some Cobra "Neighbor Haters" on my '17 SGS yesterday. I have a Dynojet Power Vision on order. The rest of the bike is stock.

My questions:

I have had bikes that had non-linear throttle curves. I like that type of throttle because it gives me more precise control at lower throttle settings.

Is this something that I can do with a tuner like the Power Vision?

I was originally going to run the NH mufflers without doing a tune but in an earlier thread I read that even a stock bike can benefit from a tuner. Hopefully a "canned" map will be sufficient? I might go for a dyno tune next summer if the cost is reasonable.

WRT the NH muflers: I compared them side by side to a stock bike, Rineharts and Street Cannons. To me they sounded the best. I haven't seen anything written about them so maybe they are too new. They sure look and sound great to me.

http://www.cobrausa-hd.com/h_d_baggersreg/flhxs_street_glide_special_17_17_1/motorcycle_exhausts/slip_ons/neighbor_hater_mufflers/6109/

[Rockout Rocker Products]

You can change the throttle sensitivity with the Powervision, if I remember right it's called throttle blade control.

[Hossamania]

Will a canned map be "sufficient"? Maybe, but you won't know for sure until it is run on a dyno. Even if it is suffucient, it won't be optimal.

[BVHOG]

You have full control of the Throttle with the Power Vision and you would definitely benefit from a tune as those NH series mufflers are very open. Gotta love the name though and they are a great value as well.

[happyman]

was thinking the throttle blade was fully adjustable.  using the new  SE tuner.

[Xyzzy]

The canned tune I am getting is supposed to be for components similar to what I have. I ordered the PV from Fuel Moto so I am pretty sure they will do a good job.

I wasn't going to get a tuner at all but I wanted to dial the bike in as close as possible.

Next summer I can take a road trip to a dyno place. I am not familiar with any where I live but I am willing to ride to one. I have 49,000 miles this year riding so far.

When I removed the stock mufflers and looked through them, I couldn't see any light. The NH mufflers are completely open.

I haven't decided if I want to replace the headers or not. I am not after more top-end power. I just want superb drivability and more low-end torque. And I want it to sound evil.

[Hossamania]

A new header will help make it sound more evil.

[HD/Wrench]

A free map is worth what you paid for it. Its not a company thing just a fact.  its a base line to start with . and before I hear " my runs great with my free map " how do you know if you never have it tuned?? best thing you can do is get it properly tuned. Period . I grow weary of listening to the " free map story" I re-tune so many bikes in a year with the free map from where ever. its silly.. Great BS marketing though , got the sale and the customer now gets to either develop one more " free map for that given company " ( many offer free maps BTW) that they give away again  with all the " free tech help"  . ROUND AND ROUND IT GOES .

I can buy a 39 dollar water pump from autozone.. I don't as I have no real desire to replace the thing a few times . sure great warranty they have to as its not right to start with .

Yet tuners across the US re tune them to make the bike runs as it should. 

If any one takes it as a bash its not just facts.  The ones that never have the bike tuned or ridden a properly tuned bike have no idea , so How can one say its right.. Better to say its good enough for that person. Nothing wrong with that a much more actual statement on their part .

[Buglet]

   I here were you coming from. But if you take the bike to all the good tuners out there, would you end up with the same tune, I doubt it. so which one would be right. Back to round and round.   

[HD/Wrench]

Not really if you have shop that really tunes you are not asking for much in the end. stage 1 deal is pretty simple . Just my opinion. But you are right some shops are not great at tuning . But then again if you decide to alter a engine and run a canned map then what type of expectation can you really have.   

[hattitude]

A free map is worth what you paid for it. Its not a company thing just a fact.  its a base line to start with . and before I hear " my runs great with my free map " how do you know if you never have it tuned?? best thing you can do is get it properly tuned. Period . I grow weary of listening to the " free map story" I re-tune so many bikes in a year with the free map from where ever. its silly.. Great BS marketing though , got the sale and the customer now gets to either develop one more " free map for that given company " ( many offer free maps BTW) that they give away again  with all the " free tech help"  . ROUND AND ROUND IT GOES .

"best thing you can do is get it properly tuned. Period ".... There really isn't any valid way to argue with that statement. So I won't try...

But, as a Harley rider since 1977 (as well as various off-road motorcycles), and having left none of my motorcycles stock, I would like to offer you a point of view that someone with your knowledge, skills, & experience may not be aware of...

While I used to be pretty good at dialing in my carb when doing engine mods, the invention of FI has changed the playing field for owner performed modifications. I have a PV, have attended a DynoJet class, and read a ton about FI tuning, yet I have just a basic understanding of FI tuning. I have no where near enough info/experience to do an FI tune, by myself, from scratch...

If I want to mod my street bike (not a racing bike), and don't want a piggy-back tuner/device on my bike, I have 3 ways to go...

1) An HD download.
2) A flash tuner, using a canned map
3) Have the bike dyno tuned.

The first choice is considered a joke by people in the know. While I tend to agree, many people use them without feeling they have been cheated. It's like when I worked in a stereo shop in the late 70's. We had $300 sound systems, all the way up to $2K sound systems. It was amazing how many people couldn't tell pick out the $2k system, although it was clearly better in every way, then any of the others...

The second choice allows for you to do mods, find a competent shop (location doesn't matter, they're just emailing you a tune), get a decent (didn't say best) tune, and even dial it in a little with an auto tune feature. In any case, most canned maps, from competent shops, are much better than an HD download.  I modded my '03 with a big bore kit & the HD download. After getting my PV and flashing a map from DynoJet, the bike ran like a totally different motorcycle. I wouldn't mod a bike again, using the HD download.

The third choice, while obviously the best, has it's problems in practice... You have knowledge of, and easy access to, a good tuner (you).... I think you would agree that a dyno tune done by someone lacking in tuning skills, is worse than useless. In the real world, good tuners are not always easy to find. To find one who is conveniently located, can be even harder. Here in SoCal, most good tuners don't advertise to avoid the wrath of CARB. The last good, bike tuner I had personal knowledge of, had the "speed shop" portion of his shop fined & shut down by CARB.

The flash tuner/canned map choice fills a large void between the canned HD map and a good, convenient tuner. To me, it has made the difference between modding my FI bikes or leaving them stock.....

FWIW.....

[HD/Wrench]

I can see that point. However I guess my issue is the amount of bikes that really do not run very well at all with the " free map" SO to me I feel the the customer got lost in the smoke and mirrors in the fun house. SO now he is paying for a tune anyways and lets not forget that engine damage may have occurred. Now it may not show its ugly head for some time. However when I get a bike in the shop with cylinder issues or guide issues I ask questions and more so if it has a PV on it and the customer has told me about getting a map.

Chicken or the egg deal for sure.. As there is no way to know if it did or did not, but too many coincidence's in a given time make me think that there is more than meets the eye when you are looking at long term wear.

Here is one example . Customer bought a PV with target tune stage 1 SG got the free map. Sent it back and forth several times for adjustment. But knows the bike is not running as well as others. SO he brings it to me we just do several pulls and the low numbers where the best it would do. He gets upset about it takes the PV off ( I told him I could tune it with the pv no issues ,) sells it and bought a TTS brings it back I and I re tune the bike. 

Now that bike ran ok no real trouble as far as just riding it , but it was no where near what it should have been power wise.  And even tuned it is not like it was a rock star had a SS X pipe double bunged  with RSD slip on mufflers and a air cleaner stock cams. But is was a far cry from being right with the " free maps several to the point)  I feel a guy buying something has an expectation of it being what it stated to be . And maybe other tuners will chime in as we all have seen this time and time again..  BTW the guy is not dumb and understand how the tuners work and he did put in the time to try and tune it on the street . I helped with a few times on pointers to get better data. In the end it needed a complete tune.

Now I understand that this is not going to be the case every time. 

[Hossamania]

We have a local shop here, and I was talking with the owner, I asked him who he uses to dyno tune after he does a build. He said he doesn't need to have it tuned, because he can do a street tune on it.
I just said that's great, and vowed to never let him work on my bike.
The other local I do use, I asked the same question. He said right now he really doesn't have anybody because the one he has been using has closed shop. At least he understood what needs to be done.

[Buglet]

   Steve, how far of was the A/F.

[guydoc77]

My guess is that the AFR may not be terrible off a lot of the time but that the timing will be horrible. I doubt a lot of "auto tuners" really do much with timing as they focus on AFR and AFR only. Add in adaptive changes done by the ECM itself and one ends up with a never ending tail chase and a harmed top end.

[HD/Wrench]

it was very rich in one or two areas it bottomed by AFR so -10.1 afr.. This was his third or forth " customer service map update"   I am not blaming the tuner I think the PV works fine.

But the fact that he invested so much time and you have some one looking at a data log and going well this " works" truth is that you have too many variables when the guy is riding the bike. Fast throttle movement not enough movement or something else like the base map was so far out in left field to start with .

Just because it ran on another bike does not mean that it will be with a range to work on the next. However the WB TT should have been able to dial this in..

I wish I had a chance to work with it but he was pissed off about the fact that it really was not even close , spent too much of his own time trying to dial it in he sold it off.  I think it was a mistake but in the end the bike got tuned runs as it should.

[BVHOG]

IMHO a canned map is a waste of time, Dealer download or otherwise. You pay for the 1000 dollar chrome pipe, the top notch headwork, lifters etc and then try to skimp the most important part which is the tune. I just can't find any logic in that.
While Steve doesn't mention names being located where I am gives me a pretty good idea of where he is seeing most of it from.

[HD/Wrench]

SO I just tuned a 2016 SG with a 124 SE 58 5.3 Zilla pipe with a crate S&S 124 HC engine. Yesterday I get another with the 100% same parts on a 16 RG special . Both using TTS. SO I take my same exact map from the build a few weeks ago and load it.  Here is the first run using Vtune 3 with both NB and WB sensors. For this deal I ran CL from down to 3250 and out to 70 KPA . You can see how far off it was. I am pulling 20 units for a TTS that is a full AFR point rich. It could just have well gone lean and been running at 15.7 afr in some spots it was over 16.1

Now on a stock engine its less of a issue ( still not right ) on a 124 not something you want to be doing . Just an example of all the same parts but with different injectors and different fuel system.

This is why a bikes need to be tuned.  And for the most part you are not getting a "tuned" map you are getting something that was "close to what you have"

Your bike your money to be honest I dont care if you burn it to the ground.. But from a standpoint of tuning,... the Free map , canned map is all smoke and mirror salesmanship or  BS you call it what you want in the end. It is not tuned and I and tuners from across the country can post this same type of data and disprove all of the " great running bikes with the free map"

Good luck tune it or dont 

[Hossamania]

But my bike is different, it runs perfect with a download, I don't need to pay for a tune. The stock EFI can compensate for the changes I made, just an air cleaner and pipes. The salesman told me so. I've never had it checked, but it runs just fine.....

[HD/Wrench]

that about sums it up.. Not mine so I dont care if it gets damaged . Just putting the information out there. People can make a choice.. But funny how later its the same guys upset that something went wrong..   lets just throw a FP3 on it,.. blue tooth fancy dash board on your phone 

[Sunny Jim]

IDLE Adjustment - We attempted to adjust the idle on an M8 after installing a PV and altering the map. We were unsuccessful. Am I missing something?

[joe_lyons]

IDLE Adjustment - We attempted to adjust the idle on an M8 after installing a PV and altering the map. We were unsuccessful. Am I missing something?

Through the live idle adjustment or through the calibration?

[Sunny Jim]

Through the calibration. Tried it on quick tune first.

[Xyzzy]

Wow, that is a lot of info.

I flashed my ECM with my free "canned" tune. The process was pretty easy. I can't tell any difference from the stock tune except the idle is about 100 RPM higher and the rev limiter is different. I wasn't looking for more power so I am not disappointed. The bike runs very well. The stock idle was 850 RPM. It sounded a bit more evil at 850 RPM, but the engine feels like it is smoother and the throttle tip-in is cleaner with the 950 RPM idle.

In my case, a "canned" tune has nothing to do about cost. I just live in the middle of nowhere and there is no way I'll be able to take a road trip to get it tuned until next year. I hope to have unrestricted headers installed by then.

I was tempted to get the wide-band sensor kit but I really would rather ride than fiddle around with the bike. IRL I am a very technical person. My bike is my escape from the technical world!

You all are going to make fun of me for what I am about to write:

I set my rev limiter to 3,000 RPM.

Why?

I can go 75 MPH in sixth without hitting the limit. I don't accelerate fast. I ride the speed limit. I am on cruise control for 99% of my ride. I ride for distance and I now have more than 50,000 miles this year. I want to do 100,000 miles next year. I just want the bike to work and be very well behaved. I cannot get my license revoked for doing 100 MPH if the bike tops out at around 75 MPH.

I know my usage pattern is odd, but my motorcycle is cheaper than a therapist.

One interesting byproduct of now being able to hear my engine: I am running it at a higher RPM now. While it will pull taller gears, the engine sounds happier one gear lower. Before, I was unable to hear the engine. My fuel economy has dropped about 10% but I still get 48-49 MPG. (Basically I am now using fifth gear for 55 MPH rather than sixth gear.)

PS - Header suggestions are appreciated.
PPS - A tuner suggestion within 300 miles of Little Rock would be appreciated.
PPPS - How much $ should I budget for a dyno tune?

[RXBOB]

the way you ride why waste money on a new header

[DTTJGlide]

Joe Lyons @ Powerhouse Cycle & Dyno is in K.C. MO, about 380mi, worth the trip.

[Xyzzy]

the way you ride why waste money on a new header

I'd be doing it for better sound I guess. I need to hear one IRL to make a decision. Plus I need to do some more research. Originally I wasn't going to do any mods (the stock power is fine) but since I have the PV now I have the opportunity to explore options.

I thought about a new air cleaner also but I'm not sure I like the idea of oiled cotton gauze filter material. That is something else to research.

[PoorUB]

the way you ride why waste money on a new header

Or any mods for that matter! Leave it stock and enjoy!

[SixShooter14]

I've heard good things about Rodneys Cycle House in Little Rock.

Pete (username: Pete_Vit) has been there more than I.

[Xyzzy]

Here is a (crappy?) video of the bike at idle. So far it has the NH slip-ons and a Heavy Breather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-U79QgRjo

I have a Jackpot header pre-ordered. Hopefully that will improve the sound and (maybe?) make tuning easier when I get it to the dyno place.

Stock, the engine was so quiet I couldn't hear it when I was riding. (I wear ear plugs, mostly because of the wind noise.) Now I can hear the engine although I do wish it was louder. Maybe my hearing is going bad.

I found the throttle blade control in the WinPV software and I have been experimenting with it. I have attached a picture of the settings of my current tune file. I tried smoothing these values but I think that made it worse. I like having a lot of grip rotation for the lower RPMs so I can do precision low-speed work easier. While what I have is smooth, it isn't as smooth as I have experienced on prior motorcycles.

I did some low-speed circles today for practice and with the idle now at 950-1000 and the smooth fueling I can idle in first indefinitely with no lash or jerky motion. I don't hear the compensator at all. On my '16 RGS I was never able to do that because the compensator would freak out. (I could idle in third gear and circle endlessly on my '14 Valkyrie, though.)

[Xyzzy]

I just got back from a quick 150 mile ride.

I love the Heavy Breather especially since it provides a while bunch more leg room. The rear breather passage (?) warms up enough and is shaped just right to warm my right fingertips. I use the primary cover for my left finger tips. Plus, it looks wicked, IMO.

The overall engine noise at cruise (fifth gear at 70 MPH) is louder than with the stock air filter but the additional noise isn't intake noise. I'm not sure why it is louder but I like it.

Since I deal with a bunch of bugs nearly year round I will leave the sock on the HB. I'll have it tuned with it in place although I can't see that sock material obstructing any flow. My stock filter, even though it has that mesh in the opening, got jammed up with bug guts and crap.

I order my OEM parts from Surdyke so they are 20% off retail, plus free shipping and no tax. I visited them a few months ago and they seem like a really cool dealer. I think the HB ended up costing $336 or so.

[Xyzzy]

This is slowly turning into a build thread.

I have been slowly raising my RPM limiter since the engine sounds so awesome when I romp on it. I may eventually set the limit high and just turn on the speed limit in the PV software. Right now I have the limiter at 3,750 RPM.

I don't know how far I will go, but I am thinking of doing a bit more work to my bike. I added a variable pressure clutch today. I think this is all I will need to do, clutch-wise, for any build I am likely to do. I'd like to get to 110/110 but I don't know if that is reasonable. It would just be for bragging rights and because I want to learn how to mod the bike.

So far I have:

SE HB intake
Cobra NH mufflers
Dynojet PV
AIM SDR VPC

I have the Jackpot header pre-ordered. I'd like to swap in different cams and some quality lifters and pushrods. If anything, I will just make that area more bullet-proof than it is now. I will definitely get it dyno-tuned but I'd like to do the rest of the work myself. (Since the new header will have ports for wide-band O2 sensors, should I consider buying the sensor kit and trying to auto-tune it myself?)

The SDR VPC took less than 5 minutes to install. I can feel the additional pressure when shifting at 3K RPM, but it is reasonable and I only pull the clutch in a tiny bit because I preload the shifter. The end result is very smooth shifts without a lot of clutch slippage. At idle the pull feels the same as stock. I do wish I could bring in the lever a bit since the engagement point is at the end of the lever travel. That would make it nearly perfect.

Anyways, I'm learning a lot and having a blast!