M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[metaliser]

Well the 19 models will all come with the Primary vented from what I heard so the Mothership feels this is the fix. They sent 2 engineers from Milwaukee to Smith Brothers to fix a guy I knows bike, they installed the vent in the upper most corner towards the rear of the primary and guaranteed it to fix the issue. Of course everytime they filled his trans they used 20w/50 SE oil which I feel is too thin for a trans but hopefully it will help his CVO. Supposedly he got a call from the Vice President of HD which is a Woman I heard, she said they will get his bike fixed and then she flew the engineers down to Tn. to do the fix.
Now before you go and shoot down my story, just remember I mentioned a long time ago about adding the slingers for the fix but I then was treated like a mangy dog but they tired the slingers and it helped some but didn't stop all the transfer. So all the 2019's will have the vent in them and they also said that if any 2017 or 18 models show the transfer they will fix them with the vent whether they are out of warranty or not.
I also found out that Cool Springs HD in Nashville Tn. has been putting the vent in for a month or so on their own anyways so they thought that was the fix also. They came up with there own venting system.
Just passing this along so don't shoot the messenger.... LOL.

[04 SE Deuce]

Did I forget something given how long a fix for this has taken?  I thought a primary vent was one of the first steps/tests to diagnose the cause of this issue.  Wwwhhhheeeeooowwwww!!!

[ekb55]

I would like to see a photo of the fix they performed on the bike along with a work order.  I believe a lot of us would find that helpful when dealing with this issue when our own dealership. Please reach out to "the guy you know" and see if you can make this happen.

Thanks

[metaliser]

I would like to see a photo of the fix they performed on the bike along with a work order.  I believe a lot of us would find that helpful when dealing with this issue when our own dealership. Please reach out to "the guy you know" and see if you can make this happen.

Thanks

I'll see if we could get a picture of this but no promises.

[Heatwave3]

Did I forget something given how long a fix for this has taken?  I thought a primary vent was one of the first steps/tests to diagnose the cause of this issue.  Wwwhhhheeeeooowwwww!!!

Here's some pics of the primary venting .... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10216655351759385&set=pcb.902665713269547&type=3&theater&ifg=1

[Nastytls]

Whistling past the graveyard.... FIX the problems!

http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-announce-2018-q2-earnings.html

[rbabos]

Vent won't help a damn thing unless the pushrod has some from of seal on it. There has to be more to it then just the vent to work.  Not rocket science.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?

[rbabos]

If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?

Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron

[1FSTRK]

If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?

Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron

Ron I agree with you from what I have seen in the design but if this primary vent tube is helping them at all it would indicate that in some cases they have some vacuum in the primary from somewhere.

Added
If the primary is sealed except for the main shaft passage, any air expansion from heat would travel from the primary to the trans slowing the oil flow so venting the primary would relieve the pressure and increase the flow.

"If" there is vacuum in the primary helping the oil in the shaft to flow into the trans then venting the primary would decrease the flow to what ever gravity can pull thereby decreasing the flow.

Either way it does not address the problem of oil being in the shaft to begin with.

[rbabos]

If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?

Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron

Ron I agree with you from what I have seen in the design but if this primary vent tube is helping them at all it would indicate that in some cases they have some vacuum in the primary from somewhere.

Added
If the primary is sealed except for the main shaft passage, any air expansion from heat would travel from the primary to the trans slowing the oil flow so venting the primary would relieve the pressure and increase the flow.

"If" there is vacuum in the primary helping the oil in the shaft to flow into the trans then venting the primary would decrease the flow to what ever gravity can pull thereby decreasing the flow.

Either way it does not address the problem of oil being in the shaft to begin with.

First thing I thought of too during the primary heat up stages. Not sure how much effect but the vent will not stop the source or real cause of the problem. If there is vacuum in the primary, which I doubt, then it would but again, not fixed the real problem. HD must have a big selection of band aids. Thing is band aids are suppose to work, right? I can't see this being nothing more then a customer pacifier to temporarily shut them up and run out of warranty.

Ron

[kd]

Is there any way the newer M8 transmission case could be exposed to crankcase pressure at the engine interface mounting?  As we know, some engines do have a more lasting crankcase pressure if not broken in properly.  This could account for the fact that not all engines seem to be effected.  The fact it only seems to be involved with the hydraulic clutch models also indicates some sort of connection to those model of castings and can or should not be dismissed.   To qualify my question I will say I have not seen the casting or any porting that may be at the sealing surface or gasket.

[50Panhead]

For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

[PoorUB]

I'm waiting for the new models to come out with "improved venting for the transmission and primary that will retrofit to earlier M8's.", with no mention of earlier issues.

[hogpipes1]

For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

    Your thinking is on the right track.

[rbabos]

For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

I discussed this like 4000 posts ago ,or at least seems that way, yet nobody I've heard of has done it. Well look at the bright side. If the vent line is incorporated, no damn excuse what's so ever to not be able to hook up a gauge. Unless the main seal is totally fkd up, you won't see much. It is after all a very simple area to seal. Another one of HD almighty attempts at fixing the problem. No real testing but let's change that seal and spacer to shut the customer up for a while and make it look like we are at least trying.  Sure there could have been the odd one, but again it's not the real fix. Also from what I gather is the hole in the shaft varies all over the place making as seal install hit and miss on the pushrod for the real for true fix, with venting of course. Like you, I'm really curious what the 19s will bring. Probably better shaft hole QC with a seal, and no doubt will boast about it in the literature as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Retrofit with the bores all over the place on 17s and 18s, not likely happening. That would be a shame for the owners.
Ron

[Bike31]

I once suggested putting a vacuum/pressure gauge on the transmission vent. There was some talk and discussion about ballons and whatever. If there's a trend for flow through that rubber elbow it may be interesting to note.

[$tonecold]

Well the 19 models will all come with the Primary vented from what I heard so the Mothership feels this is the fix. They sent 2 engineers from Milwaukee to Smith Brothers to fix a guy I knows bike, they installed the vent in the upper most corner towards the rear of the primary and guaranteed it to fix the issue. Of course everytime they filled his trans they used 20w/50 SE oil which I feel is too thin for a trans but hopefully it will help his CVO. Supposedly he got a call from the Vice President of HD which is a Woman I heard, she said they will get his bike fixed and then she flew the engineers down to Tn. to do the fix.
Now before you go and shoot down my story, just remember I mentioned a long time ago about adding the slingers for the fix but I then was treated like a mangy dog but they tired the slingers and it helped some but didn't stop all the transfer. So all the 2019's will have the vent in them and they also said that if any 2017 or 18 models show the transfer they will fix them with the vent whether they are out of warranty or not.
I also found out that Cool Springs HD in Nashville Tn. has been putting the vent in for a month or so on their own anyways so they thought that was the fix also. They came up with there own venting system.
Just passing this along so don't shoot the messenger.... LOL.

I have had a couple people using my transfer fix, which is a seal between the transmission and the primary located in the side cover that holds the clutch actuator, try venting by drilling a 1/16" hole in the steel part of the seal at the top. In both instances the transfer continued to happen. That means the transmission is pushing fluid against the seal to get it to the height of the hole in the seal, possibly with enough force to push oil through the vent hole. It is possible that the primary also is exerting a vacuum, but unless the transmission was pushing oil against the seal there wouldn't have been transfer. So basically, unless there's some sort of seal between the transmission and primary transfer is still possible with the primary vented.

[hdrider]

I'm here at the Sturgis Rally and just talked to a Baker Drive Train Rep at their vendor display at Blackhills Harley in Rapid City.  The Rep "Buddy Don" said that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover solves the problem.  Buddy says that the stock M8 Hydraulic Cover uses a 1 inch piston that is close to the same size as a nut opposite the piston (around the clutch rod) and that fluid gets trapped between the piston and nut and is forced around the clutch rod.  The Baker Hydraulic Side Cover uses a 1.5 inch piston (significantly larger than the nut) and therefore doesn't trap fluid between the piston and nut.  Baker has now seen enough instances of M8 bikes with fluid migration problems being fixed with the installation of the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover that they are now convinced this is a solution.
I would greatly appreciate it if someone with this problem would independently confirm that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover is indeed a fix.

[Reddog74usa]

 

[hogpipes1]

I'm here at the Sturgis Rally and just talked to a Baker Drive Train Rep at their vendor display at Blackhills Harley in Rapid City.  The Rep "Buddy Don" said that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover solves the problem.  Buddy says that the stock M8 Hydraulic Cover uses a 1 inch piston that is close to the same size as a nut opposite the piston (around the clutch rod) and that fluid gets trapped between the piston and nut and is forced around the clutch rod.  The Baker Hydraulic Side Cover uses a 1.5 inch piston (significantly larger than the nut) and therefore doesn't trap fluid between the piston and nut.  Baker has now seen enough instances of M8 bikes with fluid migration problems being fixed with the installation of the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover that they are now convinced this is a solution.
I would greatly appreciate it if someone with this problem would independently confirm that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover is indeed a fix.

I figured H-D would wait for someone eles to fix there problem.

[hd06]

    Yes then they will copy it. Or should I say there own version and call it a Screamin Eagle performance part.

[PoorUB]

I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.

[rbabos]

I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.

Based on the explanation, doesn't add up to me either. Maybe it's flanged to 1.5 outboard but keeps the stock piston bore but I can't see how that would stop migration.
Ron

[hdrider]

I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.

Based on the explanation, doesn't add up to me either. Maybe it's flanged to 1.5 outboard but keeps the stock piston bore but I can't see how that would stop migration.
Ron

This is what's printed on the Baker website about the Hydraulic Side Cover:

Taking design cues from our ever increasing product family known as Function Formed, we have wrapped the outer design around the functional components found inside. No garnish, or decorations, just the meat and potatoes to make this side cover look as good as it functions.

Features

FF aesthetics milled out of 6061-T6 with chrome finish.
Low profile external features for maximum exhaust clearance.
12 Point stainless steel ARP bolts and gasket included.
1.5″ diameter piston included.
Compatible with H-D or 11/16″ hydraulic master cylinders.
Fitment: BAKER DD7, BAKER GrudgeBox, Stock 6-Speed

PN DD7-106C-Kit (For Chrome)

PN DD7-106B-Kit (For Hog Black)

Screaming Eagle bikes must retrofit to the cable style center push rod system; 3pc system.