Clutch release ramps

[tmwmoose]

Some time back and probably it was FSG that had some pics of the different ramps for identification. Been doing searches with typically (its me) no results I have some ramps without the degree numbers on them. And was the non cable side the same for all?  Thanks

[FSG]

And was the non cable side the same for all? 

NO, they are matched sets

[koko3052]

Thanks FSG!

[tmwmoose]

Yeah thanks , I have a stationary ramp that has a dimple on the non ramp side opposite the tab?

[tmwmoose]

FSG, a while back on the discussion of the Muller arm assy you stated "the Muller has a slightly longer lever arm than the HD unit which is an advantage and also has a reduced circle diameter for the ramps which returns the separation loss due to the reduced ramp angle, another advantage." 
The " Reduced  circle" Can you school me on how that works? Thanks

[crazy joe]

FSG, a while back on the discussion of the Muller arm assy you stated "the Muller has a slightly longer lever arm than the HD unit which is an advantage and also has a reduced circle diameter for the ramps which returns the separation loss due to the reduced ramp angle, another advantage." 
The " Reduced  circle" Can you school me on how that works? Thanks

Also which would be best to use?

[tmwmoose]

FSG, a while back on the discussion of the Muller arm assy you stated "the Muller has a slightly longer lever arm than the HD unit which is an advantage and also has a reduced circle diameter for the ramps which returns the separation loss due to the reduced ramp angle, another advantage." 
The " Reduced  circle" Can you school me on how that works? Thanks

Also which would be best to use?

FWIW I am using the Muller since it came out and love it . I'm trying to find out if the Muller does disengage as much as the 21 degree ramps did . I think this is where FSG was going with the circle bit just wanted him to elaborate on it.

[FSG]

Ignore the fact the Muller in the 2nd pic is for a sporty, the point of the pic is the reduced PCD of the ramps.



it's a bit like a wheelbarrow, the closer the weight is to the wheel the easier it is to pickup

[Ohio HD]

Has anyone by chance ever measured the ramp widths, etc and documented for the factory HD parts?

[crazy joe]

If I remember right Muller is high dollar.

[FSG]

I have a stationary ramp that has a dimple on the non ramp side opposite the tab?

don't know what it means if anything at all

[kd]

If I remember right Muller is high dollar.

Unless there is a less expensive alternative that works as well (or better) it's probably worth it. I don't see one out there. The Muller uses a simple engineering theory that no one else picked up on or put to use and they are being rewarded for that.    No body else has applied the smaller circle for the ramps to regain the pushrod travel. If it fixes the problem and you can move on it seems to be a win.

[FSG]

And was the non cable side the same for all?

to add further to my NO, there is a product out there called Clutchlite (around $60) that comes in three versions of reduced effort, and it replaces the BT Outer Ramp (stationary) only, so they mix the OEM BT Inner Ramp (lever arm) with their Outer Ramp, which they happen to refer to as the "Inner".


Personally I've not mixed the angles and have not done the simulation to see how they'd work together.

[FSG]

Has anyone by chance ever measured the ramp widths, etc and documented for the factory HD parts?

widths or lengths ?

[Ohio HD]

Has anyone by chance ever measured the ramp widths, etc and documented for the factory HD parts?

widths or lengths ?

Lengths, I guess, that's what changes, and the angle?

[kd]

The smaller work circle for the ramp position on the Muller makes a faster lever travel and moves the pushrod further per each degree of rotation. That's what pays back the travel that is lost with the longer lever. It is the simple Law of Levers theory at play.

[FSG]

Lengths, I guess, that's what changes, and the angle?

I've not measured then, but the smaller the angle the longer the ramp will be (limited by the thickness of the ramp material) BUT not all of it is used as the rotation of the Inner Ramp (in degs) is fixed by the clutch lever/fulcrum and the length of the OEM ramp arm.

[fatboy]

The smaller work circle for the ramp position on the Muller makes a faster lever travel and moves the pushrod further per each degree of rotation. That's what pays back the travel that is lost with the longer lever. It is the simple Law of Levers theory at play.

Smaller circle means more effort, longer lever means less effort ... looks like a wash?
One cancels out the other.

[Ohio HD]

Lengths, I guess, that's what changes, and the angle?

I've not measured then, but the smaller the angle the longer the ramp will be (limited by the thickness of the ramp material) BUT not all of it is used as the rotation of the Inner Ramp (in degs) is fixed by the clutch lever/fulcrum and the length of the OEM ramp arm.

    Yep, and I can tell them apart when they're next to each other, but just trying to identify a single part, I'm not familiar enough to eye ball them. I'll have to take some dimensions when I'm that far into one the next time.

[FSG]

Can you eyeball the difference between a BT Inner Ramp and a XL Outer Ramp?   

[klammer76]

I recently installed my Muller in my SE 6 speed. Have it adjusted 1/4 turn out from bottom on the adjustment screw and what I thought was 1/16 on cable. Clutch travel measures .050 at the adjustment screw. I need to lower the table lift down and readjust the cable again. Haven't had the bike out as still winter here. Pull is as nice with the Muller as it was with the white bros easy boy.

[FSG]

Can you eyeball the difference between a BT Outer Ramp and a XL Inner Ramp?   

[kd]

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,40291.msg416216.html#msg416216

[tmwmoose]

Can you eyeball the difference between a BT Outer Ramp and a XL Inner Ramp?   

trick photo thats the same plate in each pic

[FSG]

trick photo thats the same plate in each pic

True, but the question isn't, the BT Outer Ramp and the XL Inner Ramp were the same P/N up to the 99 models, then the BT Outer Ramp changed P/N and later in 06/07 they changed the angle

[Ohio HD]

Can you eyeball the difference between a BT Inner Ramp and a XL Outer Ramp?   

Well, they do look the same....   sorta....     

[koko3052]

Mirrored image I would say. 

[tmwmoose]

MAN is this going to be on the test end of the month?  :emsad:I hate tests

[crazy joe]

I have my clutch adjusted at at 3/4 turn at the hub with the the cable loose
so i have plenty of slack. after hub is is adjusted I set free play at about 1/16"
I would like to have a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone.
Would changing the ramps accomplish this?

[Ohio HD]

I recently installed my Muller in my SE 6 speed. Have it adjusted 1/4 turn out from bottom on the adjustment screw and what I thought was 1/16 on cable. Clutch travel measures .050 at the adjustment screw. I need to lower the table lift down and readjust the cable again. Haven't had the bike out as still winter here. Pull is as nice with the Muller as it was with the white bros easy boy.

0.050" is a bit on the short side for push rode travel. I try to get at least 0.070" to keep the clutch from dragging.


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[twincam8888]

I have my clutch adjusted at at 3/4 turn at the hub with the the cable loose
so i have plenty of slack. after hub is is adjusted I set free play at about 1/16"
I would like to have a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone.
Would changing the ramps accomplish this?

What year and model is your bike?

[crazy joe]

2003 Electra Glide

[klammer76]

I recently installed my Muller in my SE 6 speed. Have it adjusted 1/4 turn out from bottom on the adjustment screw and what I thought was 1/16 on cable. Clutch travel measures .050 at the adjustment screw. I need to lower the table lift down and readjust the cable again. Haven't had the bike out as still winter here. Pull is as nice with the Muller as it was with the white bros easy boy.

0.050" is a bit on the short side for push rode travel. I try to get at least 0.070" to keep the clutch from dragging.


[attach=0]

Yeah, I know. Still have to play with the adjustment. Muller says 2mm which is .078 IIRC.

[FSG]

cold leave next to nothing at the lever and a hair to half at the ramps, as the engine/clutch/trannie warm then the "next to nothing" and the "hair" will grow

[twincam8888]

I have my clutch adjusted at at 3/4 turn at the hub with the the cable loose
so i have plenty of slack. after hub is is adjusted I set free play at about 1/16"
I would like to have a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone.
Would changing the ramps accomplish this?

Your 2003 has 21 degree ramps, switching to the 18 degree ramps will give you "a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone".

[tmwmoose]

Well ya all got me confused which set up gives the most throw out movement at the pressure plate 18- 21?

[twincam8888]

Well ya all got me confused which set up gives the most throw out movement at the pressure plate 18- 21?

The 21.

[machinist]

The 21 degree gives you the most plate separation. (steeper angle same total rotation angle)

[koko3052]

The 21 degree gives you the most plate separation. (steeper angle same total rotation angle)

You are correct with (steeper angle same total rotation angle), but isn't 18 steeper than 21?

[Ohio HD]

21 is more travel, and more force on the clutch lever to the rider.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[koko3052]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

[koko3052]

FSG...where are you!! 

[BUBBIE]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

My thinking TOO... 

signed....BUBBIE

[twincam8888]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

The 21 degree causes more travel at the pushrod for a given travel at the lever. So stiffer pull at the lever due to less "leverage" if you will. 18 degree pull at the lever is a little softer because you are not pushing the pushrod quite as far for a given amount of clutch lever travel.

[tmwmoose]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

The 21 degree causes more travel at the pushrod for a given travel at the lever. So stiffer pull at the lever due to less "leverage" if you will. 18 degree pull at the lever is a little softer because you are not pushing the pushrod quite as far for a given amount of clutch lever travel.

Yeah must be since the Muller is 15 degree

[koko3052]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

The 21 degree causes more travel at the pushrod for a given travel at the lever. So stiffer pull at the lever due to less "leverage" if you will. 18 degree pull at the lever is a little softer because you are not pushing the pushrod quite as far for a given amount of clutch lever travel.

I will beg to differ with you. I believe that 18 & 21  degree move the pushrod the same distance, the only difference being the amount of effort used and the "speed" to which it gets to that point. (speed being a very finite term)
18 degree is a "faster" ramp so should take slightly more effort (harder pull)


"Your 2003 has 21 degree ramps, switching to the 18 degree ramps will give you "a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone"."
Doesn't this mean that the "ratio" at the lever is greater with an 18 degree...so it is a steeper angle because it is moving less distance. Steeper angle =more resistance =harder pull.

[Hossamania]

When riding a bicycle up a hill, a 21 degree hill will be steeper than an 18 degree hill. Now, imagine two valleys, riding down into and back out these valleys. And, both these valleys are the same distance across, tip to tip. One valley is 18 degree slope down and up, and one is 21. The 21 is going to be a deeper V, and therefore more distance traveled. This will make it harder to pedal back up the other side, since it is steeper and longer.
This correlates to the "divots" on the clutch throwout.
Therefore, it is easier to pull the clutch handle on an 18 degree ramp than a 21, because it is traveling less distance and performing less work. This also causes the handle to be easier to modulate as more movement performs less work. But, less work also means less stack movement and separation.
So there.

[fatboy]

When riding a bicycle up a hill, a 21 degree hill will be steeper than an 18 degree hill. Now, imagine two valleys, riding down into and back out these valleys. And, both these valleys are the same distance across, tip to tip. One valley is 18 degree slope down and up, and one is 21. The 21 is going to be a deeper V, and therefore more distance traveled. This will make it harder to pedal back up the other side, since it is steeper and longer.
This correlates to the "divots" on the clutch throwout.
Therefore, it is easier to pull the clutch handle on an 18 degree ramp than a 21, because it is traveling less distance and performing less work. This also causes the handle to be easier to modulate as more movement performs less work. But, less work also means less stack movement and separation.
So there.

So no magic bullet ... Same pull distance at the handle bars,  you going to have to give one or the other; longer lever arm and add a steeper angle you got a wash.

[tmwmoose]

When riding a bicycle up a hill, a 21 degree hill will be steeper than an 18 degree hill. Now, imagine two valleys, riding down into and back out these valleys. And, both these valleys are the same distance across, tip to tip. One valley is 18 degree slope down and up, and one is 21. The 21 is going to be a deeper V, and therefore more distance traveled. This will make it harder to pedal back up the other side, since it is steeper and longer.
This correlates to the "divots" on the clutch throwout.
Therefore, it is easier to pull the clutch handle on an 18 degree ramp than a 21, because it is traveling less distance and performing less work. This also causes the handle to be easier to modulate as more movement performs less work. But, less work also means less stack movement and separation.
So there.

Dang Hoss your going to ace the test Friday and I'm going to sit right behind you hmmm maybe not if yer big like your name you left  or right handed

[1FSTRK]

When riding a bicycle up a hill, a 21 degree hill will be steeper than an 18 degree hill. Now, imagine two valleys, riding down into and back out these valleys. And, both these valleys are the same distance across, tip to tip. One valley is 18 degree slope down and up, and one is 21. The 21 is going to be a deeper V, and therefore more distance traveled. This will make it harder to pedal back up the other side, since it is steeper and longer.
This correlates to the "divots" on the clutch throwout.
Therefore, it is easier to pull the clutch handle on an 18 degree ramp than a 21, because it is traveling less distance and performing less work. This also causes the handle to be easier to modulate as more movement performs less work. But, less work also means less stack movement and separation.
So there.

Now could you do one about the two trains traveling at different speeds in opposite directions for us?

[koko3052]

When riding a bicycle up a hill, a 21 degree hill will be steeper than an 18 degree hill. Now, imagine two valleys, riding down into and back out these valleys. And, both these valleys are the same distance across, tip to tip. One valley is 18 degree slope down and up, and one is 21. The 21 is going to be a deeper V, and therefore more distance traveled. This will make it harder to pedal back up the other side, since it is steeper and longer.
This correlates to the "divots" on the clutch throwout.
Therefore, it is easier to pull the clutch handle on an 18 degree ramp than a 21, because it is traveling less distance and performing less work. This also causes the handle to be easier to modulate as more movement performs less work. But, less work also means less stack movement and separation.
So there.

Now could you do one about the two trains traveling at different speeds in opposite directions for us?

[koko3052]

   Hoss, that was an excellent explanation, now you may sit at the front of the class & that way we won't be able to see all the dummies sitting behind you!

That really was & I see it as to your explanation. My trouble was that I was thinking that the degrees were the "other" way & that the more degrees there were that the longer the slots would be until they were 180 degrees & the slots would be flat...hence why I differed.

[Ohio HD]

Now you have me  Brian. More travel should equal less force?

The 21 degree causes more travel at the pushrod for a given travel at the lever. So stiffer pull at the lever due to less "leverage" if you will. 18 degree pull at the lever is a little softer because you are not pushing the pushrod quite as far for a given amount of clutch lever travel.

I will beg to differ with you. I believe that 18 & 21  degree move the pushrod the same distance, the only difference being the amount of effort used and the "speed" to which it gets to that point. (speed being a very finite term)
18 degree is a "faster" ramp so should take slightly more effort (harder pull)


"Your 2003 has 21 degree ramps, switching to the 18 degree ramps will give you "a little more travel in the lever when I'm in the fiction zone"."
Doesn't this mean that the "ratio" at the lever is greater with an 18 degree...so it is a steeper angle because it is moving less distance. Steeper angle =more resistance =harder pull.

The older 21 degree ramps will move the push rod a bit further. They went to the 18 degree to lessen the lever pull, a result is a bit less clutch travel.

[crazy joe]

So a 21* ramp with a good quality cable would work?

[BUBBIE]

 

Man Hoss,

Am I Ever Glad I sold my Peddle Bike... No Proving this From Me...

signed....BUBBIE

[jam65]

Along these lines, what is the ramp angle on Bakers throw out bearing kit?

[FSG]

Well ya all got me confused which set up gives the most throw out movement at the pressure plate 18- 21?

21

21 is more travel, and more force on the clutch lever to the rider.

correct

Along these lines, what is the ramp angle on Bakers throw out bearing kit?

18 ,  but they will machine your 21 deg Inner Ramp to take their larger diameter throw out bearing if you send it to them, as you can buy just the individual bits you need from them not the full kit.


Hoss           you da man 


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=62664.msg669939#msg669939

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=38527.msg398545#msg398545

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=27469.msg279072#msg279072

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=57546.msg613195#msg613195

[BUBBIE]

I can see IF you get more travel out of a 21, you will Push more Clutch separation,   meaning More Hand Squeeze force... That makes sense... 

signed....BUBBIE

[Hossamania]

Man Hoss,

Am I Ever Glad I sold my Peddle Bike... No Proving this From Me...

signed....BUBBIE

I haven't ridden a bicycle since I got my first car at 16 years old. I kept my bike for ten years, moved it from garage to garage with the all intentions of riding it since it was a high end Kabuki, but, came to my senses and traded it for a quarter ounce.
For the record, I'm left handed, but tend to be one of those dinks that covers his paper so no copying, trying to stay at the top of the bell curve. Man am I glad school is over. I always struggled with the two train equation.
I was hoping my explanation made sense, it took me a while to put it together. I get easily distracted by shiny stuff.

[No Cents]

Man Hoss,

Am I Ever Glad I sold my Peddle Bike... No Proving this From Me...

signed....BUBBIE

I haven't ridden a bicycle since I got my first car at 16 years old. I kept my bike for ten years, moved it from garage to garage with the all intentions of riding it since it was a high end Kabuki, but, came to my senses and traded it for a quarter ounce.
For the record, I'm left handed, but tend to be one of those dinks that covers his paper so no copying, trying to stay at the top of the bell curve. Man am I glad school is over. I always struggled with the two train equation.
I was hoping my explanation made sense, it took me a while to put it together. I get easily distracted by shiny stuff.

      I like your bicycle trade.   

Ray

[Hossamania]

So a 21* ramp with a good quality cable would work?

That's what I have with a Pro Clutch on the RK. It is quite a bit stiffer than the stock clutch on the 2012 Ultra, but I lube it often, and it is not uncomfortable. The '12 is like butter in comparison. I can't imagine needing to make it easier to pull.
I have found that many people complaining of a stiff clutch pull have not lubed their cables and clutch handle on a regular basis, including a friend with a mousetrap on an old Pan. He was shocked when I got done lubing it up for him.
I know the new cables are Teflon lined, but I think the liner eventually wears through, requiring lube or replacement.

[FSG]

Not my pic but my '90 FLHTCU had these 15 Deg Ramps in it, clutch adjustment was a PITA I tell you, until I changed them.

[-deuced-]

I read and reread and reread again this thread. And all the links. And all the links in the links. Man, I had it all wrong. I somehow thought the "degrees" related to the location of the arm on the ramp plate. D'oh! It's the angle of the slope in the divot. The divot is the "ramp". Now I'm picturing the Stooges.
Some of the stuff I came across is old, in 21st century terms, and pictures no longer exist.
Any chance of some more detail on muller modification for throwout bearing, oil slinger modification and also the release plate spacer?

edit: apologise if I'm going off topic.

[FSG]

I've been fixing the links and pix in a lot of threads that still point to the .org site.

Do you see the pix?

[-deuced-]

rofl, I can't remember which link in link I'm talking about. I saw several pics of different ramps, drawings of ball in ramp, etc. I also read any SB or TT referred to. I did try searching. I'll have another look through the thread and try to be more specific. Thanks, mate.

[FSG]

Baker Heavy Duty Throw Out Bearing

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=61088.msg


Baker throw out bearing, oil slinger removal


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100451.msg


Clutch Advice

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=40291.msg

[-deuced-]

Thank you very much. That's exactly what I was asking about.   

[FSG]

      

[Ohio HD]

Here's some picks of new and used 21° ramps. New of course staying in the package until used. I've been collecting them so I have them going forward.

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[FSG]

[-deuced-]

Huge effort restoring those old pics, FSG. Much appreciated.

[locker55]

After reading this and understanding it, my question...is the muller the way to go to ease the pull?
say you have energy one with extra plate with SE spring and BDL lock up plate.
Is muller the better way to go being the degree and neck is longer?
Or with the muller the separation will not be good at full pull on cable?
I'm just trying to understand what would be best for easier pull?
Thanks for the help.....

[FSG]

and the new Inner (37200261) and Outer (37200262) Ramps that HD have installed in the 2018 Softails

Well I just collected a set from the local Dealer where I ordered them weeks ago.  The guy that took my order was the same guy that handed them over to me this morning.  He was curious as to why I wanted them when I placed the order but had little or no interest as he handed them over.

These new ramps are 19 Degs, easy to see on the back of the Inner Ramp, so why the big secret or lack of information on them in the new 2018 Softail Literature ?

Price in Oz$:   Inner (37200261) AU$7.48   and Outer (37200262)   AU$6.45
Price in US$:   Inner (37200261) US$4.88   and Outer (37200262)   US$4.20












Weight:    New:  167 grams  ;  Old:  188 grams   , the outer is 3 lighter, the inner is 18 lighter

there are minor differences in the dims but they are so minor 20 thou or less that I'll say that they're not intentional

the PCD of the new 19 deg ramp is slightly smaller, while the width of the new 19 deg ramp is wider by around 40 thou and can be seen by eye

the recess for the throwout bearing is the same so it will need to be enlarged to 25mm (.960") for a Baker Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing to be used

backward compatible   YES   if I need to pull the exhaust off the fatty in the next few months I'll throw these in (replace the Mueller Ramps)

[Nastytls]

Are you replacing because it will be lighter pull than the Muller?

Those notches cut in to the back would seem to reduce the strength of the piece, maybe causing it to flex under heavy load from a performance clutch spring.

[1FSTRK]

This material does not flex, it either holds or fractures and breaks.
It is unlikely to have any troubles from the new design.

[Nastytls]

 

[No Cents]

  Gary...are you thinking you will gain anything over the Mueller ramps you have in there?
I can't tell you how impressed I was after I put the Mueller ramps in my bike. It made a night and days difference in the clutch lever pull.

[Ohio HD]

Well, I jumped on the Muller bus, just ordered a set, great deal on eBay. It'll be a while before I'm into the transmission on the bike, so one thing I will do is set the ramps with the ball bearings on a rock at work, and measure the low point to the highest point of travel with an indicator. I'll also measure 21° and 18° that I have. I'll have to see how repeatable I can find the maximum travel without running the bearings outside the ramps. This will be only one aspect to their travel. As the actual limit to travel is when the clutch lever hits the grip.

[kd]

And that includes the free play at both ends.

[Ohio HD]

True, but testing travel on the bike I'll take the free play out. That way you see the actual travel capability as closely compared as possible. Harder to accurately recreate the actual free play every time the clutch is adjusted. Even at that, different grips, levers, etc. changes what one bike sees compared to another. 

[FSG]

  Gary...are you thinking you will gain anything over the Mueller ramps you have in there?
I can't tell you how impressed I was after I put the Mueller ramps in my bike. It made a night and days difference in the clutch lever pull.

NO, the Mueller is the best. 

HD changed the ramps and said nothing about it, the dealer/parts ppl here gave me the blank stare when I asked about them, I asked others that had new Softys but found out nothing.  I wanted to know what the difference(s) were if any so  bought a set, which by the way had to come from the US as there were no spares/extras in Oz.

I figure with the reduced spring pressure of the A&S clutch HD decided to increase the ramps from 18 to 19 just so they could get back a little of the plate separation that had been lost when they released the ramps/spring/cable combination in 06.

This set of 19 deg ramps may be a much cheaper option for the guy that is thinking of a Mueller but doesn't have the $$$$.

[No Cents]

  ok...I gotcha.
Your a good man for pulling out a perfectly good set of Mueller ramps to do some testing to see if these new HD ramps can save a person some money. 
  It would be hard for me to pull mine out after experiencing the difference the Mueller ramps actually made.

[klammer76]

I have the Mueller ramps in my SE 6 speed now. Just curious, do you guys have any slight gear clash when shifting after warmed up? I have just a hint. Clutch does not drag at all and neutral is a breeze to find hot or cold. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I do have Avon grips but have thought about going back to the stock HD grip to see if I get more travel disengagement.

[kd]

Try holding it for a few seconds before you put it into gear. Also check to be sure you don't have too much oil in the primary and are contaminating the fibers. Just under the clutch hub seems to work for me.

I found the adjustment is best when close to contact (very little free play) on the pushrod.  When it warms up the clearance increases. Too much clearance can be a problem after it warms up. Also, using a return spring between the cable end and the Mueller device inside the transmission ensures a full return on the cable. It is however a little tricky to get that adjustment and takes some patience.

[locker55]

Maybe a stupid question, but after installing the Mueller do you still adjust the clutch as stock?
Or is it set with more, or less turns on the lock nut?
I noted after a handlebar change my cable is not has relaxed as it was with stock bars.
It is a sharp turn into the fairing and the pull is not as smooth as before.
I was going to replace with a longer cable but the sharp turn will still be there.
So same adjustment?
Thanks.

[No Cents]

  the Mueller ramp should have come with instructions.
Mine is backed off 1/8 turn (per instructions) after clutch rod contact is made...and locked down right there.
   klammer76...my tranny is quiet and shifts smooth. No unusual noises.
I do let my bike sit and warm up for a few minutes when I first start it when it's cold. I will pull the clutch lever in 4- 5 times while it's sitting there idling and warming up. When I drop it into 1st gear it slides in gear with no clunks or harsh banging noises.

[locker55]

Thanks No Cents, I run the energy one with the BDL lock up plate.
I also let my bike warm up and pump the clutch so the plates can get wet.
I belive I will go with the Mueller. Or op for the carpal tunnel surgury...lol
Thanks again.

[klammer76]

KD & No Cents,

I don't really have an issue going into 1st from neutral it more up or down shifting if I recall correctly 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th (had to put the bike up in Late Oct here in the NE) so can't recall exactly. 2002 FLH so 1 qt in primary (Formula +).

Ray, do you know how much throw out you have measured off the adjustment set screw on your clutch? I made a new fixture to anchor my magnetic dial base to so I have to check again. I was around .050/.055 last year but didn't have a good base. Will have to wait for it to warm up down the road to check. My clutch is adjusted the same as yours, contact and back off 1/8. Minimal at the cable ferrel also, probably 1/16". Gets more as clutch warms up. Baker heavy duty throw out bearing also. Tranny is very quiet and smooth just feels like very, very  slight clash at times felt through toes when shifting. I also run Mobil 1 75/90 in trans. Has always worked well in 5 speed and didn't have an issue with the SE 6 speed. I may try Mobil 1 75/140 next year in the 6 speed.

What grips do you run on your bike?

[Ohio HD]

Just out of curiosity, do you shift lightly, or do you click the lever upward with some speed? On occasion both of my bikes will have a slight catching feeling if I shift too easy and slow. I don't use a heel shifter, I don't like them. So I up shift with a quick click, and I get clean shifts.

[No Cents]

 I never took the time to measure mine. Once I got it adjusted I pulled the clutch lever in and my pressure plate looked to have plenty of movement. So I just ran with it. Next time I get in there I will measure it now...just out of curiosity.
  I'm the opposite of Brian. Once I'm in 1st gear...I push down on the rear shifter peg with my heel to upshift. I've actually gotten into the habit of shifting down on it all the time. I'll use the front peg and push down on it with the ball of my foot to downshift.
  How Brian and my shifting techniques are similar is I shift with a lot of aggression applied to the shifter peg. I never shift nonchalantly. I've been known to stomp pretty hard on mine. I actually broke the weld on the shifter mechanism inside the tranny housing. I would contribute it breaking to me stomping so hard on it over the years.
  The best stuff I personally have found to work the best in my tranny is the Lucas Oil "synthetic" 75w140 gear lube...I dump the whole bottle in the tranny.  I run one quart of Spectro 85W Gear Saver in my primary. This combo of lubes has worked great for me.

[locker55]

No Cents, what set up are you running, Clutch? spring? lock up? I recall you run a power house of a motor.
I think a 124....right?   Thanks.

[No Cents]

 I run a Bandit clutch with their medium silver springs with 2 shims under each of them in my 124".

[klammer76]

Just out of curiosity, do you shift lightly, or do you click the lever upward with some speed? On occasion both of my bikes will have a slight catching feeling if I shift too easy and slow. I don't use a heel shifter, I don't like them. So I up shift with a quick click, and I get clean shifts.

Bingo. I have thought about that for a while. I will say I probably do shift on the "light" side. I don't like or use a heel shifter either and have it removed. I have tried to force myself to change and use more direct upward force when shifting up. If I recall, it did make a difference when I have done that (I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch yesterday so I will have to see next riding season).

[Ohio HD]

Just out of curiosity, do you shift lightly, or do you click the lever upward with some speed? On occasion both of my bikes will have a slight catching feeling if I shift too easy and slow. I don't use a heel shifter, I don't like them. So I up shift with a quick click, and I get clean shifts.

Bingo. I have thought about that for a while. I will say I probably do shift on the "light" side. I don't like or use a heel shifter either and have it removed. I have tried to force myself to change and use more direct upward force when shifting up. If I recall, it did make a difference when I have done that (I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch yesterday so I will have to see next riding season).

Try adjusting the shift lever down to your foot a little too. That helps make the shift a little more authoritative.

[locker55]

My feeling here about how many riders shift is not hard enough and most riders shift at a low rpm.
I see a lot of riders go through the gears to fast. The Harley likes to be wined out through the gears.
I believe most hot rod'ers has a smoother shift do to winding out and faster shift speed.
The heel shifter makes for a heavier shift with the weight of the leg. I have striped many shift arms and rods.
I bang the hell out of my shifter, but that's me.
But hey everyone rides different....as long as we all get there....right?

[Jim Bronson]

I'm a recent Muller convert, and I'm pleased with the shifting effort and friction zone. I had the dealer install it, and they got it adjusted right where I want it. There's about 1/16" freeplay in the cable, and the engage point starts about an inch from the grip.

[harley_cruiser]

So I have a easy pull like this .
Look at this on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152337580264
That I put in at least fifteen years ago, is there any advantage in the Muller set up?

[klammer76]

So I have a easy pull like this .
Look at this on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152337580264
That I put in at least fifteen years ago, is there any advantage in the Muller set up?

I ran that kit for years (White Bro's Easy Boy) in my 5 speed with 21* ramps. Worked perfect. The reason I switched to the Muller was the Easy Boy won't fit into the SE cover. If it did I would still use it due to the 21* ramp. The Muller works well also.

[locker55]

Cruiser Rocker Lockers, did that make for easy pull? I wonder if it could be used with the Mueller?
pulling a clutch like cutting butter at room temp......lol
All I know is I need to lighten my pull up.

[Hossamania]

Cruiser Rocker Lockers, did that make for easy pull? I wonder if it could be used with the Mueller?
pulling a clutch like cutting butter at room temp......lol
All I know is I need to lighten my pull up.

I have a feeling it would not work well with the Mueller set up, it would require too much clutch handle travel. I didn't like it on my standard set up, as I found it difficult to get it adjusted the way I like my clutch to engage, too much travel on the handle, and hard to get it to completely disengage, and yet not completely engage without the handle being all the way out at the end of travel. Felt like a big "slip" zone on the clutch. I like a tight engagement slip zone, almost "on -off", rather than a large engagement zone.

[Ohio HD]

My reason for ordering the Muller ramps is I'm using the green springs in my Barnett Scorpion clutch. Holds the motor great, Jim said when on the dyno zero slip. I can chirp 2nd gear when shifting at will too. But when in a tight situation, and I need to slip the clutch a lot, that clutch lever gets heavy....  and it's almost slipped out of my grasp a few times.

[Jim Bronson]

 It wouldn't work well with the Muller ramps for the reason Hoss mentioned. The Muller inner ramp uses a slightly longer arm in combination with the ball bearings being situated closer to the rotation axis. I personally like a wider friction zone because I like to use it when riding slowly. The Muller is also kinda pricey, so I'd recommend trying the Burly or White arm extensions first to see whether they do the job for you. I've read good reports about them.

[Bagger]

How do you guys check for clutch drag, with the bike on a jack and rear wheel off the ground.  That's how I check mine anyway. 

I run a Barnett Scorpion clutch with 6 green springs 492 lbs spring pressure.  I run the stock 21* ramp in my 2002 RK.  I've tried the HD 18* ramp, but with rear wheel off the ground, bike in 1st, lever pulled in, rear wheel would spin.  I couldn't adjust the clutch drag out.

With the 21* ramp, the rear wheel doesn't spin.  I've ordered the Muller to try, but I really don't think it'll work with the Barnett Scorpion.  Muller in their instructions don't recommend it with non OEM clutches or non OEM cables.

Barnett and Baker recommend at least 070" of pressure plate travel to avoid having any disengagement issues.

Here's what Baker said in an article about pressure plate travel.
http://crustyoldsite.bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/BBaker_0710-Picking-on-the-poor-transmission.pdf

Do your homework when using factory or aftermarket low effort clutch actuator ball ramps; lower clutch effort is achieved by lowering the clutch pressure plate travel. You can't cheat Newtonian physics. On a brand new bike low effort ball ramps will probably work fine. On a bike with worn clutch plates and a tired cable it may not work. With an aftermarket performance clutch it definitely won't work. When the clutch is not released completely, the first symptom will be difficulty in finding neutral, the next symptom will be hard shifting, and the third will be clutch dragging/creep at a stoplight.

[Hossamania]

I think Ray is running a Bandit Sportsman clutch with the Muller and has no problems, he likes it a lot.
I'm sure he will give his observations here, again.

[locker55]

How do you guys check for clutch drag, with the bike on a jack and rear wheel off the ground.  That's how I check mine anyway. 

I run a Barnett Scorpion clutch with 6 green springs 492 lbs spring pressure.  I run the stock 21* ramp in my 2002 RK.  I've tried the HD 18* ramp, but with rear wheel off the ground, bike in 1st, lever pulled in, rear wheel would spin.  I couldn't adjust the clutch drag out.

With the 21* ramp, the rear wheel doesn't spin.  I've ordered the Muller to try, but I really don't think it'll work with the Barnett Scorpion.  Muller in their instructions don't recommend it with non OEM clutches or non OEM cables.

Barnett and Baker recommend at least 070" of pressure plate travel to avoid having any disengagement issues.

Here's what Baker said in an article about pressure plate travel.
http://crustyoldsite.bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/BBaker_0710-Picking-on-the-poor-transmission.pdf

Do your homework when using factory or aftermarket low effort clutch actuator ball ramps; lower clutch effort is achieved by lowering the clutch pressure plate travel. You can't cheat Newtonian physics. On a brand new bike low effort ball ramps will probably work fine. On a bike with worn clutch plates and a tired cable it may not work. With an aftermarket performance clutch it definitely won't work. When the clutch is not released completely, the first symptom will be difficulty in finding neutral, the next symptom will be hard shifting, and the third will be clutch dragging/creep at a stoplight.

Good info. I do note that running the BDL lock up plate that bike wants to walk at stops, give it a bump on the throttle and it goes away. I have adjusted this clutch many times to get the happy spot.
So is baker saying their trans will be easier to adjust and last longer inside?
Also are they a seller of the ramp extension?
I been thinking of going to the baker six speed gear set for the five speed, but it's hard to justify the cost when the bike runs like a champ.
I wish I could demo the Mueller and the extension. (Decision, Decisions, Decisions.....)

[Jim Bronson]

You could get lucky and find a used Muller on ebay, but I can't imagine anyone going back to OEM ramps after using a Muller.

[kd]

I think Ray is running a Bandit Sportsman clutch with the Muller and has no problems, he likes it a lot.
I'm sure he will give his observations here, again.

I'm running the exact same clutch as No Cents (Ray) with one more shim, Evo Ind. 49 tooth basket and Muller Power Clutch. The claim is 40% lighter lever and I believe it because I ran without it using the same clutch set up. It went from brutal pull to like stock. Like Hoss said, the clutch starts to engage earlier (closer to the grip at about 30% travel) but not on and off like a light switch. That slower initial engagement comes in handy when trying to feather your way around a crowded parking lot.

[FSG]

Set up correctly the Mueller works fine, the addition of the extension would be 3 steps backwards, I'd not waste my time trying an easy pull extension on the end of the Mueller ramp.

[harley_cruiser]

Set up correctly the Mueller works fine, the addition of the extension would be 3 steps backwards, I'd not waste my time trying an easy pull extension on the end of the Mueller ramp.

You would not want to use the Mueller with the easy pull, your clutch would not disengage at all. My question was is there any advantage in replacing the easy pull with the Mueller.

[Jim Bronson]

Set up correctly the Mueller works fine, the addition of the extension would be 3 steps backwards, I'd not waste my time trying an easy pull extension on the end of the Mueller ramp.

You would not want to use the Mueller with the easy pull, your clutch would not disengage at all. My question was is there any advantage in replacing the easy pull with the Mueller.

I can only say that I have the SE spring with the  HD Tire Shredder kit in my '15 RK, and the clutch pull is very easy with the Muller ramps. I see very little difference between mine and the hydraulic clutch of my buddy's '17 RK with the stock spring. If you're OK with the EZ Pull extension, then there's no need to change it. However if you have a SE spring and are looking for the easiest pull possible, then you may want to try the Muller. My dealer got it set just the way I like it, but it did take him a few tries.

[Ohio HD]

I've checked out Ray's lever pull on his bike, it's pretty easy to pull in by opinion. I also know how stiff his lever was before he had the Muller in the bike. My Scorpion with the green springs is a very stout pull. In honesty the only reason I want to make the lever pull less is for when you're in a tight turn, up hill, or down hill, I mean a 10mph tight  corner on a hillside. It's tough to feather that clutch lever and especially with more power, a slight slip of the lever and you could launch right off the road. As well if your in a hurry with the clutch lever, it's harder to control the bike.   

[Ohio HD]

Speak of the Muller, it showed up just a minute ago.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[FSG]

My question was is there any advantage in replacing the easy pull with the Mueller.

IMO Yes

[Bagger]

Speak of the Muller, it showed up just a minute ago.

Please give us a user review and will you be measuring pressure plate travel before and after?

[No Cents]

  while your in there Brian...put one of those Shovel springs on your clutch cable...if you don't already have one on it.
FSG probably knows the part number for it off the top of his head. I'll see if I can find it. I know I got it wrote down some where.

[14Frisco]

Shovel springs on your clutch cable

33201-79
More info here: 33201-79 Shifter Pawl Carrier Spring - For Clutch Cable

[No Cents]

  it looks like he has a few of them. 

[Hossamania]

My question was is there any advantage in replacing the easy pull with the Mueller.

IMO Yes

After using the Easy Pull, and not using the Muller ramps, I have to think the Muller's are much better. I did not like the easy pull set up at all.

[Ohio HD]

  while your in there Brian...put one of those Shovel springs on your clutch cable...if you don't already have one on it.
FSG probably knows the part number for it off the top of his head. I'll see if I can find it. I know I got it wrote down some where.

I have a couple of them here Ray.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=63622.msg680567#msg680567

[FSG]

[Ohio HD]

Speak of the Muller, it showed up just a minute ago.

Please give us a user review and will you be measuring pressure plate travel before and after?

I will, but it's going to be a few months before I have all of the parts to rebuild the transmission, a new swing arm, etc. I know I can get as much as 0.079" travel with stock ramps. When I went to the heavy green springs in my Scorpion I lost a little travel. I attribute that to the clutch cable buckling a little. A new cable, and a set of 21° ramps and I have the travel back. But I also have a strong clutch lever pull now.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[FSG]

The EZ Pull Extension effectively lengthens the ramp arm/increases the lever arm and in doing so reduces the effort required to rotate the ramp.

But the clutch lever/cable travel remains the same, i.e. BLUE T =  RED T

So the ramp with the extension rotates less than without, i.e. Black/Blue Angle is less than the Black/Red Angle

end result with a longer arm is reduced clutch plate seperation

the better way is to reduce the PCD of the balls which is what Mueller have done

[harley_cruiser]

The EZ Pull Extension effectively lengthens the ramp arm/increases the lever arm and in doing so reduces the effort required to rotate the ramp.

But the clutch lever/cable travel remains the same, i.e. BLUE T =  RED T

So the ramp with the extension rotates less than without, i.e. Black/Blue Angle is less than the Black/Red Angle

end result with a longer arm is reduced clutch plate seperation

the better way is to reduce the PCD of the balls which is what Mueller have done

Thanks FSG, that is the way I will go and get rid of the easy pull, I need a new clutch and cable so will do it then.

[No Cents]

  you won't believe the difference it will make...especially if you put a new cable on at the same time.
Be sure to put one of those Shovel springs on over the end of the cable inside the housing while your in there. 

[FSG]

I need a new clutch and cable so will do it then.

The newer cables with the teflon coating are soooooo good

While not for everyone, I've taken to using Lightweight Shockproof, sure drains easier and works just as well.

[FSG]

you can see where this cover has been tweaked earlier in life so as to accommodate the EZ Boy Extension

[road-dawgs1]

I'll have to find me one of those obsolete springs that ya'll are using. I've got a leaky cable that will need changing soon. Muller might be in my future too.

[ecir50]

ebay has them 33201-79

[harley_cruiser]

I need a new clutch and cable so will do it then.

The newer cables with the teflon coating are soooooo good

I ordered the spring, what brand Teflon cable?

[kd]

You don't actually need one with a Harley part #. Check out the jobber for a spring kit and you should find what you need there too.  I have a spring assortment, picked one strong enough to return the cable and not bind .....  Bob's yur uncle. It works great. Thanks to FSG for posting it a while back (and every time we mention it here by posting a pic). 

[FSG]

what brand Teflon cable?

I use Barnett Cables because I wanted extra length, BUT the HD Cables since 06 have the Teflon Coating so a new stock one from HD should be good

[harley_cruiser]

You don't actually need one with a Harley part #. Check out the jobber for a spring kit and you should find what you need there too.  I have a spring assortment, picked one strong enough to return the cable and not bind .....  Bob's yur uncle. It works great. Thanks to FSG for posting it a while back (and every time we mention it here by posting a pic). 

what brand Teflon cable?

I use Barnett Cables because I wanted extra length, BUT the HD Cables since 06 have the Teflon Coating so a new stock one from HD should be good

[locker55]

Does the shovelhead spring take any of the easiness from the Mueller pull?

And why run the spring? does the Mueller take from the return of the clutch handle?

After all of you on here say about the Mueller I'm sold and will put one in.
But now No Cents comes up with the spring???

Thanks for all on here that share their good knowledge. And a Happy New Year to all.

[FSG]

Does the shovelhead spring take any of the easiness from the Mueller pull?

No, from the lever feel you wont know it's there.

And why run the spring?

It ensures the inner ramp returns to it's home position provided the cable hasn't been over adjusted.

does the Mueller take from the return of the clutch handle?

No

[FSG]

33201-79 Shifter Pawl Carrier Spring - For Clutch Cable

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=63622.0

[Bagger]

Is there anyone on HTT that can machine a Muller for the Baker throwout bearing for me?

[FSG]

and for anyone that's been following changes, running changes, etc, one will find that the MoCo has gone back to 21° Ramps   

they prolly had to considering they'e done away with the juice clutch on the Tourers 

37200434 & 37200435

[Bagger]

Is there anyone on HTT that can machine a Muller for the Baker throwout bearing for me?

Back in 2017 after reading these threads about Mueller I bought one for $150 and then sent to baker and for $40 Baker machined the new Mueller ramp for me to fit Baker's larger diameter heavy duty throwout bearing. 

However, I never installed it, now just sits in original package in a drawer, along with a set of 18* ramps.  I run the stock 2002 21* ramp machined by Baker for Baker's larger heavy duty throwout bearing.  I have no issues with the clutch lever feel.  And I've run a Barnet Scorpion clutch with six green springs over the last 18 years with this 21* ramps. 

[FSG]

I need a new clutch and cable so will do it then.

The newer cables with the teflon coating are soooooo good

While not for everyone, I've taken to using Lightweight Shockproof, sure drains easier and works just as well.

an old thread I know .....  but I just saw the 1st pic on a Cummins Forum   

[Ohio HD]

Also a Honda PCX forum....


https://hondapcx.org/viewtopic.php?p=99724&sid=3cefd79e1a52482ce98fd6bbb15f56e4#p99724

[FSG]

 

[FSG]

and for anyone that's been following changes, running changes, etc, one will find that the MoCo has gone back to 21° Ramps   

they prolly had to considering they'e done away with the juice clutch on the Tourers 

37200434 & 37200435

and when you look at M-1514 they have done away with the individual ramp being available and created a KIT





and a further AND ........

37200261 is no longer available while 37200262 is at $15.40

and 37200434 & 37200435 are no longer available as individual items but are in Kit 37000376  @ $43.64 , yes it has the balls and coupler it's a huge increase IMO