When to Dyno

[wmoor004]

Good evening (Eastern)

I have a question for the experts of the forum - my 2017 RGS was recently (finally) delivered 27 May 17) with the following add-ons:

- SE Stage 3 114 Kit
- V&H Power Dual Head Pipe
- Vance & Hines Hi-Output Slip-ons
- SE Breather (Vent.)
- SE Pro Street Tuner

I have been following the manuals break in period recommendations but I have heard conflicting information regarding break in and Dyno'ing the bikes. In your opinion, is it beat to dyno the bike after the 500 miles, 1000 miles, or go for it now.  I currently have 350 miles on the bike.  Thank you for your valued assistance!! Airborne All The Way!! Artillery!!

[PoorUB]

I would get it done ASAP.

[Ohio HD]

So, the dealer added all of that on from new, and didn't tune it?   

[wmoor004]

They added a map because they wanted to let the bike be broken in first.  That is why I turned to you guys.

[wmoor004]

I would get it done ASAP.

My thoughts exactly! Thank you!

[Ohio HD]

They added a map because they wanted to let the bike be broken in first.  That is why I turned to you guys.

It would depend on how close that MAP is. If HD did their homework, and know what to adjust for "their" own parts, all should be well. Keep in mind, the tune even after with the street tuner is very limited as to what can be adjusted.

[1FSTRK]

Does the SE Pro Street Tuner have Cals for the V&H Power Dual Head Pipe and Vance & Hines Hi-Output Slip-ons?

Given HD appears to be voiding warranties on a bike with any aftermarket parts I would just get a good tuner and dyno tune ASAP.

[rigidthumper]

No- and they should have done what limited adjusting is available prior to delivery.

[harleytuner]

Does the SE Pro Street Tuner have Cals for the V&H Power Dual Head Pipe and Vance & Hines Hi-Output Slip-ons?

No it doesn't.  And I will add there there will NOT be enough adjustments in the street tuner to get this thing tuned.  All the cals I've seen retain the stock headpipe and use slip on only.

OP, if the dealer did this work for you you need to get something in writing from them that they will honor at least your factory warranty, because the voided it by issuing that headpipe as far as the MoCo is concerned.

[wmoor004]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 

Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

[harleytuner]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 

Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

As long a you got it on writing.  My understanding is that If the MoCo  (not the dealer) knows it is not EPA,compliant using HD parts they can/will flag you VIN.  There is not enough adjustment in the SE Street tuner to properly tune that setup.

[wmoor004]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 

Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

As long a you got it on writing.  My understanding is that If the MoCo  (not the dealer) knows it is not EPA,compliant using HD parts they can/will flag you VIN.  There is not enough adjustment in the SE Street tuner to properly tune that setup.

I do not doubt the MoCo will do anything to handcuff us owners. LOL! I will have to fight that battle if it should arise.  I do hate hearing the tuner will not do the set up any justice but after reading through the threads I figured as much. I guess I am trying to squeeze every bit out of the set up - but it does run miles above my 13' RGC as is.

[Coyote]

Regardless what your dealer tells you, HD can and will void your warranty if they find out about the head pipe change. It is part of their settlement with the EPA for newer bikes.  You can fight the battle if it occurs but you're likely gonna lose. You got rid of the cat so you're on your own. 

[wmoor004]

Again. I appreciate all the valuable information but I have a letter from the dealership and I just spoke to the owner (I sent him a text) and was told if they have to cover the cost it will be repaired should anything happens.  The forum is full of experts and I am glad I asked the question so I could ensure I would be covered - however, it is said the tuner they installed will not help my need for speed. LOL!

[Ohio HD]

I guess the question really is, #1, do you really think the dealer will fight the factory to warranty something if it does happen, or #2, will they eat the costs themselves?

#1, maybe, #2, I seriously doubt it.

[1FSTRK]

Again. I appreciate all the valuable information but I have a letter from the dealership and I just spoke to the owner (I sent him a text) and was told if they have to cover the cost it will be repaired should anything happens.  The forum is full of experts and I am glad I asked the question so I could ensure I would be covered - however, it is said the tuner they installed will not help my need for speed. LOL!

It really is not about speed, it is about proper tuning to make the engine not only perform it's best but more importantly have the proper timing and fuel to keep it from hurting it'self.

[wmoor004]

I guess the question really is, #1, do you really think the dealer will fight the factory to warranty something if it does happen, or #2, will they eat the costs themselves?

#1, maybe, #2, I seriously doubt it.

Hopefully, it does not come to that.

[Ohio HD]

I guess the question really is, #1, do you really think the dealer will fight the factory to warranty something if it does happen, or #2, will they eat the costs themselves?

#1, maybe, #2, I seriously doubt it.

Hopefully, it does not come to that.

Agreed, I hope not.

[PoorUB]

Regardless what your dealer tells you, HD can and will void your warranty if they find out about the head pipe change. It is part of their settlement with the EPA for newer bikes.  You can fight the battle if it occurs but you're likely gonna lose. You got rid of the cat so you're on your own.

I asked the local dealer parts guy about this tonight. He said HD will void your warranty if you use non-EPA approved parts. If the aftermarket parts are EPA approved HD will honor all warranties. He also told me they have been instructed to educate the customer when they ask about modifications as to what will and will not void your warranty. He did say he has heard of bikes getting flagged  and warranties voided, but has not seen anything at their shop.

Pretty much what we have been warning people about all along.

wmoor004, what happens if you are 1,000 miles from home and you motorcycle fails in such a way that you need warranty work done? The closest dealer might give you some hassle. Just something to consider. I hope your dealer is a stand up guy, some will tell you anything to sell a few dollars in parts.

[HD/Wrench]

cat in muffler with non cat SE head pipe will work ..  Then tune with a PV . if it needs to go back and they can figure out how to read the tune just flash it back with street tuner.

that is what this guy did .. its a EPA street legal kit in this form .. Now the cam swap might raise a eye brow ..  If they go looking

Untitled by GMR Performance, on Flickr

[dmrdn]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 



Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

As long a you got it on writing.  My understanding is that If the MoCo  (not the dealer) knows it is not EPA,compliant using HD parts they can/will flag you VIN.  There is not enough adjustment in the SE Street tuner to properly tune that setup.

You have a piece of paper that says they will cover it.  So you have an issue and they will not cover the work.  They do not have to prove anything as to what did or did not cause the issue.  They do not pay for the repair.  You decide to take them to court.  You get a lawyer to take the case.  You have to take time off work to go to court etc etc.  You will not go to court once but many times. (Favorite tactic)  A year or so later you get a settlement for the cost of the repair and if lucky your lawyer fees.  No compensation for your time and the toll it takes on you mentally and physically.    Better off not worrying about it and just be prepared to pay for things because you did not keep it stock or used parts that did not say HD on them. 

HD Rule #1 of warranty claims.  If a part is on the bike that is not considered to be a HD approved part or evidence of the bike not being used for its intended purpose (Riding around with Big Parade Flags) deny the claim and let them take us (HD) to court.

HD does it all the time as does the Extended Warranty Company all of the time.

[harleytuner]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 



Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

As long a you got it on writing.  My understanding is that If the MoCo  (not the dealer) knows it is not EPA,compliant using HD parts they can/will flag you VIN.  There is not enough adjustment in the SE Street tuner to properly tune that setup.

You have a piece of paper that says they will cover it.  So you have an issue and they will not cover the work.  They do not have to prove anything as to what did or did not cause the issue.  They do not pay for the repair.  You decide to take them to court.  You get a lawyer to take the case.  You have to take time off work to go to court etc etc.  You will not go to court once but many times. (Favorite tactic)  A year or so later you get a settlement for the cost of the repair and if lucky your lawyer fees.  No compensation for your time and the toll it takes on you mentally and physically.    Better off not worrying about it and just be prepared to pay for things because you did not keep it stock or used parts that did not say HD on them. 

HD Rule #1 of warranty claims.  If a part is on the bike that is not considered to be a HD approved part or evidence of the bike not being used for its intended purpose (Riding around with Big Parade Flags) deny the claim and let them take us (HD) to court.

HD does it all the time as does the Extended Warranty Company all of the time.

I agree with you. I don't think tee OP's letter from tee dealer is worth the paper its written on bit what's done is done.  I bet the MoCo would love to hear about its dealers doing this stuff.

[dmrdn]

Check this thread out about a M8 blowing up and HD denying warranty because of Fuel Pak 3 (FP3)

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97384.100

[rigidthumper]

They have more lawyers than engineers...

[harleytuner]

They have more lawyers than engineers...

Don't I know it lol.  True statement right there

[HD/Wrench]

how many times have they stolen from us at this point ha ha .

[wmoor004]

Great information in the thread.

[rigidthumper]

how many times have they stolen from us at this point ha ha .

I'd bet they have made more money off of you than you have

[HD/Wrench]

yes that is without a doubt a true fact..   

[hattitude]

The head pipe does not void the warranty.  When the dealership installed the build we specifically went over the warranty and I have in writing the work is covered.  The warranty is voided if it is proven the part absolutely caused the damage. I went to my local MoCo and when they saw the bike they also made the comment "They install aftermarket heads and will do cover warranty issues". 

Has anyone actually seen a dealership deny warranty because of a head pipe or tuner? Just asking.  All in all, I will get the dyno done when I do the 1K service.  I really appreciate all of your assistance.

Several good tuners have given you their opinion on whether or not you need to tune your bike... I will defer to their experience on that piont..

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but you were given bad info on warranty...

1) The whole they have to "prove the part absolutely caused the damage" issue has to do with OEM spec parts under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act. As soon as you add a performance part, or a part that operates outside the OEM parameters/specs, the MM Act, and the proof of failure clause no longer applies... period. It's back to the written warranty..

2) Whatever the dealer put in writing, does not change the Manufacturer's warranty. The warranty is from the MoCo, not the dealer. Look in your owner's manual under Limited Warranty. Look under "Exclusions #4" and "Other Limitations #4". The MoCo gets to decide what performance enhancing parts are covered and what are not... EPA has nothing to do with it, outside the narrow scope of the EPA consent decree.

If the dealer put in writing that the warranty will be covered with your "performance enhancing" exhaust, realize that is a warranty by your dealer to you... Keep that written record..!!

MoCo has nothing to do with it. If you beak down outside of range of your dealer, you will be on your own dime for a warranty repair, if it gets reported to the MoCo. The dealer is playing the odds nothing will happen, to make a sale. You will both probably win this bet... but it is better to know the facts..

3) Since part of the EPA decree requires reports to the EPA on warranty repairs... the MoCo has been taking their written warranty much more seriously than in the past.. They are less likely to turn a blind eye on minor modifications as they have for years. They are also holding dealers more accountable for filed warranty claims. Yes, the MoCo HAS denied warranty coverage on 2017 bikes because of performance parts, and certainly if they are made aware a non-EPA tuner was used.

There was a case on this and another forum where a customer had a known oil issue, that caused engine damage. His dealer filed a warranty claim. The MoCo inspected the bike, and found it had an FP3 tuner on it. MoCo both denied the warranty claim, even though the tuner was NOT the cause, and they flagged the bike for future powertrain warranty claims as required in the consent decree...

I have no proof of this anecdote, but a service tech wrote on a forum, that while a MoCo rep was checking out a warranty claim on one specific bike, he took it upon himself to inspect all the warranty claims in the shop at the time. He ended up denying warranty claims on two bikes for aftermarket parts that were not tune related..

Again, the odds are in your favor, that all the warranty changes won't affect you at all. You should have a great running bike for many miles.... just know the stakes are high if you are one of the few who have a problem, needing major repairs... the repairs will be paid by you or your dealer... not the MoCo..

[wmoor004]

hattitude, great response!! At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I kept my mouth shut about several comments mentioned in the thread.  In all honesty, and I sincerely mean this, after serving in the military for more than twenty-years, and deploying to fight wars more times than I want to remember, I am more than willing to cover the cost if HD voids my warranty claim. This bike was a 50th Bday gift to me and I went all out building myself a 2017 CVO RGS. LOL! Once my wheels get here next week I will post some photos - I mean I added the CVO rear fender, Boom Stage 2, Oil Cooling fan and so-on on...

You guys will continue to be one of the leading forums that I lean to for all things concerning HD. 

[hattitude]

hattitude, great response!! At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I kept my mouth shut about several comments mentioned in the thread.  In all honesty, and I sincerely mean this, after serving in the military for more than twenty-years, and deploying to fight wars more times than I want to remember, I am more than willing to cover the cost if HD voids my warranty claim. This bike was a 50th Bday gift to me and I went all out building myself a 2017 CVO RGS. LOL! Once my wheels get here next week I will post some photos - I mean I added the CVO rear fender, Boom Stage 2, Oil Cooling fan and so-on on...

You guys will continue to be one of the leading forums that I lean to for all things concerning HD.

You deserve a bike, set up the way you want... you have earned it... enjoy !

I look forward to the photos...

[wmoor004]

These are my current mods:

2017 RGS Stage III 114 w/ V & H Power Duals/High Output
10" Factory 47 Bars
CVO Rear Fender and CVO Stretched Bags
Stage II Boom
PM Syndicate Wheels (arriving this weekend)
Corbin Solo Seat
Air Flow Grips/Pegs
Ultra 7 pin Tank Console

More mods I need to put on - 12" Madstad windshield and Wrap Fender

[doubletrouble]

First and formost - thank you for your service.