Horrible experience at the Dealer

[Bullfrog]

Can somebody please take a look at this dyno chart and tell me what you think? The peak numbers look good but this thing runs like crap on the bottom end. The build is Woods WM8-222 cam, Woods lifters, SE Pushrods (supposed to be Fuel Moto pushrods but the Dealer didn't want to install them), Fuel Moto Jackpot 2-1-2 head pipe, Fuel Moto High Roller Mufflers and SE high flow air cleaner.

[Bullfrog]

Good morning, I would like to start off by saying that I purchased a 2017 RGU a couple of months ago and absolutely love it. What I don't love is dealing with the Dealership for the upgrades. I ordered a Fuel Moto 2-1-2 Jackpot head pipe, Fuel Moto High Roller mufflers, Woods WM8-222 cam kit with lifters and adjustable pushrods and I let them talk me into the SE High Flow air cleaner. I picked my bike up last night for the second time and still don't have the parts that I ordered installed (they didn't want to install the Fuel Moto pushrods). So I was absolutely against having them Dyno my bike and planned to have them install a base map and I would take it elsewhere for a tune. The problem is when they called me the first time to tell me my bike was done, I asked some questions and after being lied to and asking more questions and making some phone calls, I figured out that they never ordered the cam kit. They only ordered the cam and just installed whatever they wanted to in my bike and whether or not they changed the bearings, I don't know. After discussion, they ordered the kit and I had to take my bike back in another time and now I'm pressed for time, as I was supposed to be leaving today to take the bike on a trip (I have pushed this trip back further and further, waiting on them to do the work. It has been 8 weeks since I ordered the parts. Now being in a time crunch, I decided to go ahead and let them Dyno tune the bike, so I could be ready to go. When I picked the bike up last night and looked at the Dyno chart, I could tell right away that is wasn't going to run well and I was right. I just about killed it pulling out of their shop and have to feather the hell out of the clutch every time I take off. The peak numbers look good but it runs like crap on the bottom end. Not to mention that they scratched both side covers and the tappet cover to the point that they have to order new. I would like to post my Dyno and see if anybody has any advice and maybe can point me in the direction of a good tuner.

Thanks in advance,

Bullfrog

[Hossamania]

Where are you located?

[Hossamania]

Where were you planning on taking it to get tuned after the parts install the first time?
Did this work void your warranty?

[HD/Wrench]

I am sure we can get this tune sorted out . Sorry to hear that is running so poorly.  A tune is all encompassing , not just a WOT pull .. 

[Rsw]

If you are anywhere near GMR let Steve tune it and it will exceed your expectations

[Coyote]

Good morning, I would like to start off by saying that I purchased a 2017 RGU a couple of months ago and absolutely love it. What I don't love is dealing with the Dealership for the upgrades. I ordered a Fuel Moto 2-1-2 Jackpot head pipe, Fuel Moto High Roller mufflers, Woods WM8-222 cam kit with lifters and adjustable pushrods and I let them talk me into the SE High Flow air cleaner. I picked my bike up last night for the second time and still don't have the parts that I ordered installed (they didn't want to install the Fuel Moto pushrods). So I was absolutely against having them Dyno my bike and planned to have them install a base map and I would take it elsewhere for a tune. The problem is when they called me the first time to tell me my bike was done, I asked some questions and after being lied to and asking more questions and making some phone calls, I figured out that they never ordered the cam kit. They only ordered the cam and just installed whatever they wanted to in my bike and whether or not they changed the bearings, I don't know. After discussion, they ordered the kit and I had to take my bike back in another time and now I'm pressed for time, as I was supposed to be leaving today to take the bike on a trip (I have pushed this trip back further and further, waiting on them to do the work. It has been 8 weeks since I ordered the parts. Now being in a time crunch, I decided to go ahead and let them Dyno tune the bike, so I could be ready to go. When I picked the bike up last night and looked at the Dyno chart, I could tell right away that is wasn't going to run well and I was right. I just about killed it pulling out of their shop and have to feather the hell out of the clutch every time I take off. The peak numbers look good but it runs like crap on the bottom end. Not to mention that they scratched both side covers and the tappet cover to the point that they have to order new. I would like to post my Dyno and see if anybody has any advice and maybe can point me in the direction of a good tuner.

Thanks in advance,

Bullfrog

It looks like you are probably closest to Joe Lyons at Powerhouse in Belton Mo.  The issue you describe is very likely just a tuning issue.

If you are anywhere near GMR let Steve tune it and it will exceed your expectations

[Bullfrog]

I have made an appointment with Steve at GMR. It's about a 6 hour ride but it will be well worth it to have it done right. Thanks for the responses.

[Bullfrog]

Hossamania, I am located in El Dorado KS and the Dealer assured me that this will not void my warranty.

[Pete_Vit]

I have made an appointment with Steve at GMR. It's about a 6 hour ride but it will be well worth it to have it done right. Thanks for the responses.

from what I hear, well worth the ride - 

[jbexeter]

I have a question.

I do not know how thinks work in the USA, but here...

If I OWN a vehicle and take it into the garage, by definition I also OWN all the components of that vehicle.

if I then PAY that dealer to put in a hotter cam and followers say, I STILL OWN the oem cam and followers, and they get handed to me, along with an invoice itemising the new parts used, and possibly even the packaging they came in, that being used to pack the oem parts that were removed.

I don't know dick about the rest of this question, but I genuinely don't understand how a paying customer can not know what parts were changed and fitted?? surely he has all the old parts, the paperwork for the new parts, and so on? Or is it that different in the US?

[Hossamania]

Hossamania, I am located in El Dorado KS and the Dealer assured me that this will not void my warranty.

Do you have that assurance in writing, backed by Harley Davidson, not just that dealer? There have been many instances of denied warranty due to installation of non HD parts and tunes.

[tmwmoose]

I have a question.

I do not know how thinks work in the USA, but here...

If I OWN a vehicle and take it into the garage, by definition I also OWN all the components of that vehicle.

if I then PAY that dealer to put in a hotter cam and followers say, I STILL OWN the oem cam and followers, and they get handed to me, along with an invoice itemising the new parts used, and possibly even the packaging they came in, that being used to pack the oem parts that were removed.

I don't know dick about the rest of this question, but I genuinely don't understand how a paying customer can not know what parts were changed and fitted?? surely he has all the old parts, the paperwork for the new parts, and so on? Or is it that different in the US?

When I was open and the RUB factor emerged I was blown away at how everything was left at the dealer after work/upgrades just blew me away crap one mech at the dealer was selling damn good parts on the side all the time he even fanageled a Mikuni once .What actually supprized me the most was the ignorance of the customer. No offence to the OP please

[Rsw]

Your bike will run so much better when Steve is done you'll forget all bout the warranty. Maybe take it back to your dealer and show them how a properly tuned bike runs!!!

[Bullfrog]

No offense taken. So here is the rest of the story. I was called on day one to be told that they scratched my tappet cover and it was on back order so I would have to bring it back in for that On day two (of a stage 2 install that should have taken 1 day), I was called to be told that they were fighting an O-Ring leak on the pushrod tubes. When they finally called to tell me that it was done, I started asking questions and was told that Fuel Moto didn't send the pushrods with the kit so I asked about the lifters and bearings and was told that those were not included in the kit. I argued and stated that yes the kit that was supposed to be ordered was $650 and included lifters, pushrods, bearings and install kit. Again I was told that no, it did not. I promptly checked my receipt and yes I did pay for the kit so I started making phone calls and figured out that they never ordered the kit, they only ordered the cam. So I went to pick up my bike with paper work in hand and visited with the Service Manager. The service guy that I had been dealing with was on vacation so I had been dealing with the Service Manager. I showed him what I had ordered and what I had paid for and he started off by saying that Fuel Moto didn't send the pushrods so they decided to install the SE pushrods. Now I don't have a huge preference there but a courtesy call would have been expected to make sure that I was okay with that. After discussion we decided that they would order the kit, as that is what was supposed to be ordered in the first place and I would bring my bike back in. After taking the bike out into the parking lot, I discovered that they had scratched both side covers, one may be able to be buffed out but the other definitely needs to be replaced. I think all went okay with the second install with the exception of them calling me again to say that Fuel Moto didn't send the tubes for the pushrods and wanted to know if I was okay with them installing the SE pushrods. I said that was fine and called Fuel Moto to get clarification and was told that the OEM tubes are to be used. So I called them back and they had already installed the SE pushrods and had it buttoned back up. Like I said before, I don't have a huge preference so no big deal. When I get there and take a look at the dyno chart, I could tell right away that the tune was no good but was told that it was due to the cam that I chose. Keep in mind that I have performed all of this work myself on my previous bike (2007 EGlide Classic), so I knew what I was talking about when I asked the questions that I asked of them. I had had even installed the Smith Brother's pushrods in my old bike so I knew that they were a little more difficult but still very do-able. I have also tuned several bikes with the TTS, just using my laptop. I had a buddy that took his bike to 3 different tuners to be tuned in the area and his bike still ran like crap. I was able to tune it for him, it took me some time and some reading but that was 4 or 5 years ago and he is still happy with the tune. This has just been a horrible experience for me and I have continued to put off my vacation, waiting for this work to be done. It would be nice to just be able to drop your bike off with them and know that they will take care of it. Isn't that what I am paying them for? I will be taking it to Steve and I am sure that he will take care of it and when I pick it up, I will be smiling all the way back to KS. Oh and one more thing, when I agreed to go ahead and let them tune it, I asked if they were any good with the TTS. I was told that TTS had come and trained their Tuners, what they failed to tell me was that all of the Tuners that were trained by TTS were no longer there. I found that out by making more phone calls. Any way, enough with my rant, I'll take to GMR and all will be well. Lesson learned.

[egstandard]

Except for the modern terminology, that post could have been written in 1970. Nothing has changed my friend.

[PoorUB]

Bullfrog, also, besides all the hassle you have certainly voided the warranty on your new Harley. Harley will only warranty an engine modded with EPA approved parts, most of yours are not.

Good luck!

[tmwmoose]

Never fails that chit hits the fan before a vacation feel for ya hope it all works out for you

[PoorUB]

Never fails that chit hits the fan before a vacation feel for ya hope it all works out for you

Yep! Never do any major work before a vacation. I hate even changing oil in fear I might find something wrong! (Now think about that for a minute! )

[rigidthumper]

Ignorance is bliss...
What I don't know, can't bother me...

[tmwmoose]

Ignorance is bliss...
What I don't know, can't bother me...

Boy ain't that the truth when going on trips with my buds they all wish they knew what I did about there motors n bikes where I wish I didn't and thought everythingI'm hearing, feeling etc is normal and OK and enjoy the ride lol

[HD/Wrench]

Or worse you hear your buddys bike and he is just smiling to beat hell and all you can hear is the lifters hammering away or piston slap at the light .. Your bike is running and you are not sure if yours is making a "new" npoise or is the others around you HA HA  I just turn up the 800 watts of sound system and smile

[Hossamania]

The other night on a group ride, my bike started making a chirp that i couldn't pinpoint. Kept trying to track it dowm while riding. At one point, I pulled alongside the bike that was in front of me, and I could hear it echo off his bike, much louder now. I scooted ahead to look for a place to pull over and take a look,, and it got much quieter, could barely hear it. As I slowed down, he passed and I could hear it coming from his bike, not mine. Problem solved! Rode hard the rest of the ride, no worries!
Never said a word to him. Figured he knew, or didn't, but I wasn't going to get involved.

[PoorUB]

Never fails that chit hits the fan before a vacation feel for ya hope it all works out for you

Yep! Never do any major work before a vacation. I hate even changing oil in fear I might find something wrong! (Now think about that for a minute! )

But then there was the time I did a top end rebuild. Started on it Monday evening, finished Wednesday evening. I rode it about 100 miles on Thursday evening and dumped the oil. Saturday morning we headed out for North Carolina! I would not have started the rebuild except the engine was burning so much oil I could not take the trip with it, so nothing lost if I did not get it back together in time.

I have to give Kirby a thumbs up for that one. He bored me a cylinder and shipped it with a couple set of rings UPS Next Day Air on Tuesday so I had the parts on Wednesday. I wondered how many shops can do a top end rebuild with no parts on hand in three days!

[sandrooney]

Man what a story. I have learned my lesson with doing all that crap to my bikes. The only thing I have done to my 15 RK is Street Cannon street legal slip on's . It runs great and goes faster than I will ever ride it. Just buy it and ride it and leave it alone. When it breaks fix it.

[klammer76]

Or worse you hear your buddys bike and he is just smiling to beat hell and all you can hear is the lifters hammering away or piston slap at the light .. Your bike is running and you are not sure if yours is making a "new" npoise or is the others around you HA HA  I just turn up the 800 watts of sound system and smile

Oh boy, been there...

[One4Tone]

I honestly don't get it. I took out a new M8 Limited. My buddy rode the RK. We had the bikes for an hour. The power was exceptional. Why would anyone need more speed?...honestly buy a used Buell (at least if you have a front wheel flat you can do a wheelie all the way home)...for the kind of money MoCo wants I won't change nothing except the oil and plugs. 

[Rsw]

Why does anyone need more power and speed ?? Because we can!!!

[tomcat64]

Hossamania, I am located in El Dorado KS and the Dealer assured me that this will not void my warranty.

maybe I missed it, but did you use a TTS?? cause if you did, the warrantee will be flagged!

[Bullfrog]

I'm not too worried about things that go bump in the night. Good tunes and loud pipes will take care of all those incidental engine noises, that we are so inclined to try to figure out. As far as speed and power. I really wasn't chasing either. I do want my bike to perform well in all conditions and I definitely wanted to loose the cat and the heat that goes with the stock exhaust. I just figured if I'm going that far and paying for a dyno, I might as well go ahead and do the cams, while I'm there. That's as far as I will ever need to go. As far as warranty, we will see how that is dealt with if ever needed. i purchased my last bike when it was 2 years old and tinkered with it a lot. I never needed any dealer work on it, in 8 years of owning it. Better intake, better exhaust, cams and a good tune and I'll be a happy camper. I'll post the results when Steve has finished with the tune.

[1workinman]

Or worse you hear your buddys bike and he is just smiling to beat hell and all you can hear is the lifters hammering away or piston slap at the light .. Your bike is running and you are not sure if yours is making a "new" npoise or is the others around you HA HA  I just turn up the 800 watts of sound system and smile

Oh boy, been there...

My street glide is at Steve place now from my mistake of not taking it there at first . Damn .

[SLAATY]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

[harleytuner]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

C&S Speed Shop is in East St. Louis.  I highly recommend Jason. (618) 271-1523

[krwson]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

How bout Durwood @ Sheffer performance HD

[SLAATY]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

C&S Speed Shop is in East St. Louis.  I highly recommend Jason. (618) 271-1523

Thanks - I'll check him out! Maybe catch a game while I'm in town...

[rigidthumper]

Uh, the Rams moved to LA 😄

[Coyote]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

How bout Durwood @ Sheffer performance HD

Top notch choice.

[harleytuner]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

How bout Durwood @ Sheffer performance HD

Top notch choice.

I agree. I didn't realize he was in that region.  Either choice will get it done.

[SLAATY]

Uh, the Rams moved to LA 😄

Yeah, but that was to get out of the Card's shadow...

[Herko]

...mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked...

Part throttle tuning is an area that can separate the men from the boys in the tuning arena.
To get you're your bike in an Excellent State of Tune (EST) for part throttle operation requires expertise not found at some tuning facilities.

Durwood of Sheffer Performance HD implements a disciplined procedure for the entire tune...including the part throttle phase of the tune.

The WOT phase of the tune is the easy part. The part throttle phase requires the bulk of the time and skill.
Durwood certainly has this skill.
There is much more to it than simply calibrating VEs to a commanded AFR (or set of commanded AFRs) and tweaking the spark tables.

[Bullfrog]

Bullfrog

I would just like to say thank you to Jamie and the gang, at Fuel Moto and give an update on this situation. After being told that the bike just wouldn't tune, due to the parts that I picked, I contacted Fuel Moto to find out their take on this. Jamie got on the phone with me and promised me that the parts that I purchased from them are proven and tested parts, and that if I would bring the bike to him, he would make sure that it was tuned correctly when it left his shop. My Girlfriend and myself were planning a trip anyway, so we redirected our trip to Wisconsin to, hopefully get my bike to run the way that it should. I have to say that Jamie and the rest of the Fuel Moto crew were nothing but professional and were great to deal with. Jamie called me after uninstalling the TTS and installing the PV, with his custom map to tell me that the bike was already running much better. I would like to say that there was nothing wrong with the TTS, Jamie just tunes with the PV. Jamie did mention that it was needing more air and after removing the Screamin Eagle cover, it improved even more, so I had him go ahead and switch that out for the S&S air cleaner. I also had Jamie install the inserts in the mufflers, that was my preference just to knock a couple of decibels off of the cruising volume. I will say that my bike now runs much better, all across the RPM range and I can pull away from a stop, two up and loaded with luggage, with very little throttle. The final numbers are 110 HP and 109 TQ and these are more than just peak numbers, this bike is now a pleasure to ride again. The ride home was much more enjoyable than the ride up there. I will say that these guys are top notch. I never sensed any type of arrogance or animosity Jamie but I will say that he was never anything but confident that he could deliver on his word, and he did. I think that if we let ourselves believe that we are in competition with the next guy, sometimes it is the customer that suffers and I believe that as a business, when you let your personality conflicts trump your professionalism, everybody loses.  With all of this being said, I am very happy with the performance of the bike and would again, like to say thanks to Jamie and Bob for all of the help. Oh and Jamie, thanks for the suggestion of La Crosse, it was a beautiful ride.

Thanks again,

Bullfrog

[Pete_Vit]

  - this is what I love about this place 

[Good_Apollo]

This talk of good tuners has me curious. I'm in the Peoria Illinois area and would consider spending the $$ if I knew of a reliable tuner around these parts.

Don't want the WOT pulls; mostly wanting the 5-40% throttle range tweaked. I don't hammer it, too much invested and I no longer have cash available for expensive repairs down the road (retired 😎).

Anywho, input appreciated...

Valley Racing in Beecher, IL

[hogsty]

Finding a good tuner in the Dallas area is impossible.  That is until Steve moved GMR around the corner from me.  He did a magnificent job on my 2014.  It runs superb.  He didn't like the parts I installed on the bike, but I asked him to do the best he can with them.   He exceeded my expectations by an order of magnitude.

This was several years ago and I still love my tune.  If I had to drive 6 hours or more to get him to tune my bike I wouldn't think twice about it.  If and when I get a new bike he will certainly be the first person I call.