Wet Sumping

[JB2017CVO]

Harley cant seem to figure it out so I thought I would throw this out to the group and maybe get an answer back...I currently am riding a M8 CVO street glide with a stage 4 kit in it...I have had 2 new motors or should I say top ends put in to it because it keeps wet sumping...both times the problem has occurred when I really got into the throttle good...it ran fine the entire time as long as you kept it under 4k rpms I would say...but the minute I opened her up...the same problem came back...I pulled over a little ways down the road and sure enough....about 1 qt low of oil....anyone have any ideas?

[tomcat64]

PM me...

[rbabos]

Harley cant seem to figure it out so I thought I would throw this out to the group and maybe get an answer back...I currently am riding a M8 CVO street glide with a stage 4 kit in it...I have had 2 new motors or should I say top ends put in to it because it keeps wet sumping...both times the problem has occurred when I really got into the throttle good...it ran fine the entire time as long as you kept it under 4k rpms I would say...but the minute I opened her up...the same problem came back...I pulled over a little ways down the road and sure enough....about 1 qt low of oil....anyone have any ideas?

Oil pump or g-rotor alignment issue usually but the dealer should know that.
Ron

[harleytuner]

Do the cases cases a plug in the bottom like the TC's do?  If so, could the plug  be set to deep blocking the scavenge passage like in the TC's?

[hattitude]

From the story he posted, I believe the OP of this thread is the same guy who posted his problem/results on another forum.

He addressed the issue in two threads. I quoted his posts because I don't think you can attach a link to another forum... This is all second hand info by "Heatwave" on HD forums and "JB2017CVO" on this forum. Based on their stories, it may be the same person. I thought it would be worthwhile sharing his reported experience..

In one thread he posted:

the Stage 3/4 kits have more power and can rev faster. That ability to rev faster generates more oil pressure on the top of the engine through the hi-pressure side of the pump than the scavenging side of the pump (lo-pressure - higher volume sump) can get out of the crankcase. The imbalance results in a build up of oil in the crankcase that can eventually act like a drag on the entire crank as it gets submerged in oil. 

A stock bike doesn't have the ability to overwhelm the sump side of the pump but the higher hp engine builds supposedly can.


Then he started his own thread on the issue:


I figured I would start this thread for anyone dealing with an oil sumping issue related to the installation of a Stage 3 or 4 performance kit on a new M8 bike.

Here's my experience: Bought a new 2017 CVO Limited in Nov 2016. Rode it a 1000 miles home. Love the bike. Upgraded to Stage 3 in December. HD released stage 4 kit in late Jan 2017. I figured what the hell, I would have done the stage 4 in Dec had I known, so I upgraded the stage 3 with the larger injectors, CNC Ported heads, SE 515 cam and 64mm throttle body.

The Stage 4 was great across the entire rpm. I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.

(now at 5000 miles) At first everything was great but I noticed rising temps and decreasing performance the longer I rode the bike. More than an hour of riding and the fun would start "running out of the bike". It would get sluggish to the point that it couldn't get out of its own way. Like it was dragging an anchor. Let it sit overnight and the bike would be back to being a rocket....but only for an hour or so.

I took the bike to Laconia Bikeweek for a week of hard riding in the mountains.  Very hard running.

After this early morning run (45 mins), we pulled over and shut down for about 15 mins. Got back on the bike and headed out on another run. Bike was a dog. Like a completely different bike. No power, running hot, couldn't get out of its own way. No engine lights. 50% or more loss of power. I nurse it to a gas station and call the local HD dealer for advice. The local HD dealer had a dealer rep in house and said it sounded like a sumping issue.

He said to turn the fans on (wethead bike) and let the bike idle on the kickstand for a while. I had no idea what "awhile" was but I think I let it idle for about 10mins. He said the idling would allow the high-vol low pressure side of the oil pump to clear out the crank before I started riding again. Sure enough the bike was much "healthier" after I let it idle for a while before riding.

I dropped the bike off at my local dealer today for inspection and diagnosis. Dealer had already gotten a Reference # for service from HD. I just got word from the dealership that HD authorized the motor to be opened up to inspect the piston jets. They are also overnighting a new design oil pump that will be at the dealer tomorrow morning. Dealer says he'll know more after the engine is fully broken down and the new oil pump arrives. Currently the engine is partially opened up and no issues identified so far.

This might be a good thread for others with higher hp sumping issues on the new M8s to share their experiences.

[harleytuner]

They're been countless tests dinner on aftermarket big bore kits making more power than the EPA kits being put out by HD.  I just had a 114 kit in the shop with head work that we tested different pipes and cams.  It went through 4 full tunes and never had a sumping issue.  Another company I'm working south is developing kits and cams and has made tons off passes on his dyno and is not reporting any issues with sumping.  I believe FM has done some pretty impressive stuff with BB kits and I haven't seen any reports of them having problems.  Tman, Head Hoggers, Star Racing etc. Don't seam to be having this issue.  Just dealers using HD parts.  The rev faster excuse seams odd to me.

[hattitude]

This was the first I had heard of this issue. Seemed strange to me, due to all things you mentioned. I only posted as an FYI.. not sure what to make of it...

On his thread, there has been one other claim the same experience, and that HD stepped up and fixed it with a new pump ASAP...

I'll try to paste the thread  here:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1184801-2017-cvo-117-m8-stage-4-sumping-issue-hd-addressing-2.html#post16383942

If the link doesn't work, it's on the other forum, titled: "2027 CVO 117 M8 Stage 4 sumping issue... HD addressing"

[harleytuner]

Thanks for the link.  They're having multiple issues IMO, I know the HD 114 kit I had you could put the piston in the cylinder and push it through,  but if you tried to spin it at the bottom of the bore it would lock up.  I can't see it causing sumping.  The oil pump makes much more sense

[hattitude]

Interesting stuff going on with the sumping issue thread....

One who had the sumping, said the MoCo sent a two-step direction for the fix:

1) They have been instructed to take the engine down to inspect the oil jet screws. They are to set trq wrench to 20 in-lbs., if it turns than the screw has backed off. If they have backed off, they are instructed to remove oil jets, replace with new gaskets and retorque to 30 in-lbs.

2) Replace oil pump with new design oil pump that was overnighted from Corporate. If everything else looks good during disassembly, they are to reassemble and it should be ready to go.

One tuner believes that, in addition to the oil pump scavenger intake being changed to increase flow, that a leaking oil jet screw will dump more oil into the sump than designed, adding to the sumping issue... there have been reports of the screws coming loose..... thus the new torque spec...

[rbabos]

Interesting stuff going on with the sumping issue thread....

One who had the sumping, said the MoCo sent a two-step direction for the fix:

1) They have been instructed to take the engine down to inspect the oil jet screws. They are to set trq wrench to 20 in-lbs., if it turns than the screw has backed off. If they have backed off, they are instructed to remove oil jets, replace with new gaskets and retorque to 30 in-lbs.

2) Replace oil pump with new design oil pump that was overnighted from Corporate. If everything else looks good during disassembly, they are to reassemble and it should be ready to go.

One tuner believes that, in addition to the oil pump scavenger intake being changed to increase flow, that a leaking oil jet screw will dump more oil into the sump than designed, adding to the sumping issue... there have been reports of the screws coming loose..... thus the new torque spec...

A problem that should not exist in the first place. Simple damn screw and simple purpose.
Ron

[JB2017CVO]

The corrective action being taken by my dealerships are as follows....first they thought it was the oil jets....they supposedly were not torqued properly from the factory...needless to say that did not fix the problem...had to take it back in last week...Now the issue is supposedly the return side of the oil pump...Harley is sending the brand new oil pump that just came out....to install in my BRAND NEW motor out of the crate since they have been into this motor 3 times now...Will keep you informed as to whether or not this fixes the problem...

[Hossamania]

Have they loaned a bike to you in the mean time?

[hogpipes1]

Harley's creditability with me is siding down hill  fast. After more yrs  ( ALL MY LIFE ) of my love affair with too many Harley's ,been ridden & wrenching over the yrs. Not to mention damn near  fights with others ,bad mouthing Harley's and  there oil leaking , won't start , fall apart junks the jap riders like to throw at you.

Now comes all the big issues with the M-8. Dealer keeps bugging me when are you going to buy a new bike. Now i have one more issue to bring up about what's wrong with the new ones . That  of course
he  knows nothing about . ya right.   
Motor co.  must have a higher turn over rate of engineers , then Doctors at the VA Hospital's. But i will keep doing the same ol "Potty mouth" , riding there F-UP'S  til my last ride. H-D you have a addict on  the  road.  why is my beer all gone !

[hattitude]

Anyone have access to this Tech Bulletin?

M1450: Loss of Power on 2017 Milwaukee-Eight Equipped with Screamin' Eagle Stage III or IV Kits


It's supposed to be about the sumping issue....

[JB2017CVO]

Should be able to pick up my bike today some time....Brand new motor with a brand new stage 4 and brand new oil pump that Harley just came out with a couple weeks ago...I will put a few miles on it and then keep yall posted as to the results....

[FSG]

SB M-1450 and new oil pumps for Stage III and Stage IV Kits to address sumping issues.

OIL COOLED M8   P/N  62400178

WATER COOLED M8   P/N  62400182 

current inventory of pumps can be used for non sumping issues.

Instructions J06314 and J06421 are to be updated with a requirement to install a new oil pump.


It's not said but my take on it is that these two new pumps will be used across all models once current inventory has been depleted.

[JB2017CVO]

Well....had a brand new motor with the updated oil pump installed last week.....sumped again today....Harley is sending down an tech/engineer to look at it now....we will see

[GregOn2Wheels]

62400182 pictures.  Notice the box label says MYI 2018.

[happyman]

Well....had a brand new motor with the updated oil pump installed last week.....sumped again today....Harley is sending down an tech/engineer to look at it now....we will see

Curious  as to what its doing when it sumps, or how you tell?  does it lose power ?

[FSG]

The spigot still looks crappy, I wonder how well they are sealing

Notice the casting number 62400144 on the pump body, I've seen this number put forward as a P/N for a pump, which it is not.

[happyman]

The spigot still looks crappy, I wonder how well they are sealing

Notice the casting number 62400144 on the pump body, I've seen this number put forward as a P/N for a pump, which it is not.

what is the  ## by chance

[harleytuner]

I thought they were putting a reducing bushing in the inlet?

[Heatwave3]

From the story he posted, I believe the OP of this thread is the same guy who posted his problem/results on another forum.

He addressed the issue in two threads. I quoted his posts because I don't think you can attach a link to another forum... This is all second hand info by "Heatwave" on HD forums and "JB2017CVO" on this forum. Based on their stories, it may be the same person. I thought it would be worthwhile sharing his reported experience..

In one thread he posted:

the Stage 3/4 kits have more power and can rev faster. That ability to rev faster generates more oil pressure on the top of the engine through the hi-pressure side of the pump than the scavenging side of the pump (lo-pressure - higher volume sump) can get out of the crankcase. The imbalance results in a build up of oil in the crankcase that can eventually act like a drag on the entire crank as it gets submerged in oil. 

A stock bike doesn't have the ability to overwhelm the sump side of the pump but the higher hp engine builds supposedly can.


Then he started his own thread on the issue:


I figured I would start this thread for anyone dealing with an oil sumping issue related to the installation of a Stage 3 or 4 performance kit on a new M8 bike.

Here's my experience: Bought a new 2017 CVO Limited in Nov 2016. Rode it a 1000 miles home. Love the bike. Upgraded to Stage 3 in December. HD released stage 4 kit in late Jan 2017. I figured what the hell, I would have done the stage 4 in Dec had I known, so I upgraded the stage 3 with the larger injectors, CNC Ported heads, SE 515 cam and 64mm throttle body.

The Stage 4 was great across the entire rpm. I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.

(now at 5000 miles) At first everything was great but I noticed rising temps and decreasing performance the longer I rode the bike. More than an hour of riding and the fun would start "running out of the bike". It would get sluggish to the point that it couldn't get out of its own way. Like it was dragging an anchor. Let it sit overnight and the bike would be back to being a rocket....but only for an hour or so.

I took the bike to Laconia Bikeweek for a week of hard riding in the mountains.  Very hard running.

After this early morning run (45 mins), we pulled over and shut down for about 15 mins. Got back on the bike and headed out on another run. Bike was a dog. Like a completely different bike. No power, running hot, couldn't get out of its own way. No engine lights. 50% or more loss of power. I nurse it to a gas station and call the local HD dealer for advice. The local HD dealer had a dealer rep in house and said it sounded like a sumping issue.

He said to turn the fans on (wethead bike) and let the bike idle on the kickstand for a while. I had no idea what "awhile" was but I think I let it idle for about 10mins. He said the idling would allow the high-vol low pressure side of the oil pump to clear out the crank before I started riding again. Sure enough the bike was much "healthier" after I let it idle for a while before riding.

I dropped the bike off at my local dealer today for inspection and diagnosis. Dealer had already gotten a Reference # for service from HD. I just got word from the dealership that HD authorized the motor to be opened up to inspect the piston jets. They are also overnighting a new design oil pump that will be at the dealer tomorrow morning. Dealer says he'll know more after the engine is fully broken down and the new oil pump arrives. Currently the engine is partially opened up and no issues identified so far.

This might be a good thread for others with higher hp sumping issues on the new M8s to share their experiences.

Nope...I'm Heatwave on both forums. JB2017CVO is someone else. I had oil sumping issues in my 2017 CVO Limited with Stage 4 kit and outlined the issue and my resolution in detail on another forum. In a nutshell, I believe I've had oil sumping since I took delivery last Oct. (I've reached that conclusion after now riding with a new stock 114 engine) I had 4800 miles on the 1st engine before taking it to the dealer for what I said was loss of power and overheating issues. This was before SB1450 was released. In fact my bike may very well have been one of the first bikes that helped them write up the diagnosis procedure in SB1450.

I had 13 ounces of extra oil in the crank with the Crank Sensor position removed. Cylinder x-hatching and pistons were good but the crank and rod were stiff to rotate when the tech opened the engine.  HD authorized a new engine. They also authorized a new stage 4 kit with labor including the latest design (with reducer bushing) oil pump.

Anyways I had my new engine installed last week. Broke it in and and then road it hard 2up and solo. It runs really terrific. There has been nothing I could do on the highway or the twisties to generate the power loss and overheating I experienced with the first engine. But I was still in stock form.

My new stage 4 kit arrives at the dealer today. The new engine is disassembled and will have the new stage 4 parts and new design oil pump installed today and tomorrow. I'll be back on the road late tomorrow and getting miles on the new stage 4 through the weekend. HD covered the cost of my 1000 mile service since I had already had the 1000 service on the first engine. I plan to have the dealer do the 1000 miles service next week before heading out on a 7000 mile to Sturgis and back. Hopefully my only "adventures" will be the ride and not the bike!

[Heatwave3]

The spigot still looks crappy, I wonder how well they are sealing

Notice the casting number 62400144 on the pump body, I've seen this number put forward as a P/N for a pump, which it is not.

I've since learned that the casting #62400144 is just the body # and NOT the oil pump #. Essentially they are using the same body parts and press fitting the bushing into the sump inlet in the picture above. That bushing reduces the inlet diameter and causes the oil to "accelerate" when the low pressure hi-volume sump-side of the oil pump is removing oil from the crankcase. That's how the new design oil pump was explained to me by the HD Tech folks. You can see the bushing pressed into the inlet in the lower left hand corner of this picture.

[Heatwave3]

duplicate

[FSG]

You can see the bushing pressed into the inlet in the lower left hand corner of this picture.

[rbabos]

Not sure why you would want a reducer bushing there. Looks more like a support for the snout so the hole stays round.
Ron

[FSG]

I've since learned that the casting #62400144 is just the body # and NOT the oil pump #.

That casting number is exactly that, a casting number and rarely does a casting number become an actual part number.

That raw body requires machining before it can be used, once machined it will be given a part number, but remember it could also be machined in different ways so that it could be used in different applications and so from the one original raw cast two or more finished parts could be produced that would have totally different part numbers, rear wheel pulley for use on Touring and Dynas is a prime example.

Note: the pump body isn't available by itself so no part number is listed for it

[rbabos]

I've since learned that the casting #62400144 is just the body # and NOT the oil pump #.

That casting number is exactly that, a casting number and rarely does a casting number become an actual part number.

That raw body requires machining before it can be used, once machined it will be given a part number, but remember it could also be machined in different ways so that it could be used in different applications and so from the one original raw cast two or more finished parts could be produced that would have totally different part numbers, rear wheel pulley for use on Touring and Dynas is a prime example.

Note: the pump body isn't available by itself so no part number is listed for it

Not sure how accurate those pics are but I see no 2-1 scavenge effect with the rotor sizes shown. Might be just crappy picture?
Ron

[GregOn2Wheels]

One other thing I found interesting was the price.  $78 and change at full retail.  I'm accustom to OEM oil pumps costing just shy off $200.

[FSG]

While no longer valid, chester-harley-davidson in the UK had the 62400182 listed at £90.24 tax incl, which is around US$117