SERT/SEST vs. TTS MasterTune

[WVULTRA]

Reading "loc's" earlier post about switching to Tru Duals and needing a map (for a SEST) till he got through break-in, Bob stated a professional opinion which I appreciate.

What's really sparked my curiosity is if loc was using a TTS MasterTune, would several "riding" recordings with a laptop and the VTune Software produce adequate changes to correct the imbalance Bob referred to?  Can the Software recognize the change and correct the VEs?

I realize the Spark Tables may be a problem.........

Any other concerns?

[Steve Cole]

Vtune will dial the VE's in for true dual just fine on a O2 equipped bike. It's already been done several times by both  bike owners and tuners.

[WVULTRA]

Steve:

Would any of the other tables be a concern; especially the Spark Tables?

Thanks for chiming in!

[ToBeFrank]

There is software to do that with his SEST too.

[Steve Cole]

Steve:

Would any of the other tables be a concern; especially the Spark Tables?

Thanks for chiming in!

The timing tables will need some work but it will ride just fine with the corrected fuel tables. As with any tuning it all about how far you want ro willing to go with it. The issue with the SESPT or the older SERT is there is no way to know when the corrections are right as the software will not support the functions needed. The base software that HD uses apply's the amount learned all the time so it has no way to know if the learned value is right or wrong for any one area. It apply's the learn and you have no way to know when to use it and when not to use it. We had to rewrite the way the software worked in order to make Vtune do its job and do it right and that is why you have to only use MT7 based files. Yes, we could have made something to get you into the ball park without what we've done but it just would not be right.

[ToBeFrank]

The issue with the SESPT or the older SERT is there is no way to know when the corrections are right as the software will not support the functions needed. The base software that HD uses apply's the amount learned all the time so it has no way to know if the learned value is right or wrong for any one area. It apply's the learn and you have no way to know when to use it and when not to use it. We had to rewrite the way the software worked in order to make Vtune do its job and do it right and that is why you have to only use MT7 based files. Yes, we could have made something to get you into the ball park without what we've done but it just would not be right.

That was Steve's round about way of saying my software doesn't work, even though I've already confirmed that it does. I expected nothing less. You must go give Steve $400 now instead of using what you already spent your hard earned money on!

[Steve Cole]

I have not seen your software nor do I care about it. I've heard you over and over say it's coming and it's going to be free to everyone but that's it. So is it out and done yet? Is it still free like you promised it would be or are you trying to get peoples hard earned money? What I did is tell people how the Delphi system works. If your still trying to use VE and VE new from our data mode software it's not right. Trying to make those items match isn't going to get a proper tune. I cannot help it if you do not like it but that's how it works. I'm not asking anyone for anything, only sharing how it really works.

[ToBeFrank]

I have not seen your software nor do I care about it. I've heard you over and over say it's coming and it's going to be free to everyone but that's it. So is it out and done yet? Is it still free like you promised it would be or are you trying to get peoples hard earned money?

Yes, it's out. No, it's no longer free. This is America, and I'm allowed to change my mind about that. Putting a GUI on it took way more time than I thought it would and as we all know, time is not free. Considering that these guys already spent $400 for a SEST or SERT, and their option is my $50 software versus paying another $400 for the TTS, I think I'm giving them a pretty good deal.

What I did is tell people how the Delphi system works. If your still trying to use VE and VE new from our data mode software it's not right. Trying to make those items match isn't going to get a proper tune. I cannot help it if you do not like it but that's how it works. I'm not asking anyone for anything, only sharing how it really works.

I compared one of my tunes with a MT6 file to a tune on the same bike generated by V-Tune. They were nearly identical. Are you saying that V-Tune doesn't work as well?

[ToBeFrank]

BTW, I know of at least 3 other guys (one a dyno tuner) doing pretty much the same thing I'm doing, except they use excel spreadsheets. They all produce accurate tunes.

[Steve Cole]

HD gives away an excel sheet for doing it so that's no big deal! Want to guess who did it? No one needs to pay us $400 just to tune there bike if they already have a SERT, your just trying to make yourself feel better! You said you would do it for free, so now you've backed out of that, sounds about right for you. Does the GUI look just like Vtune too? It's a lot easier to do when all you have to do is copy someone else's work! As for your test between a MT6 file and our tools pardon me if I have to call BS on that one. I would love to see that test run and cover the whole VE map area and see how close they really come. I already know that answer! Then you are also leaving out what a customer gets when they use Mastertune Vs SESPT and you software, $459.00 + $50 = $500 for you and HD. Mastertune is $425 and you get more features with Mastertune. So whose really trying to get peoples hard earned money here!

[ToBeFrank]

HD gives away an excel sheet for doing it so that's no big deal! Want to guess who did it?

Sure... those guys did. I know for a fact they did not start from a spreadsheet developed by anyone else.

No one needs to pay us $400 just to tune there bike if they already have a SERT, your just trying to make yourself feel better!

How's the SERT upgrade coming along?

You said you would do it for free, so now you've backed out of that, sounds about right for you.

Yes, I did. Like I said, this is America and I'm allowed to change my mind. I'm definitely not gouging anyone at $50.

Does the GUI look just like Vtune too?

Actually it looks more like the Twin Scan as that was the inspiration.

It's a lot easier to do when all you have to do is copy someone else's work!

Next you're going to claim you wrote my wideband algorithm.

As for your test between a MT6 file and our tools pardon me if I have to call BS on that one. I would love to see that test run and cover the whole VE map area and see how close they really come. I already know that answer!

You're allowed to do that, but the data doesn't lie.

Then you are also leaving out what a customer gets when they use Mastertune Vs SESPT and you software, $459.00 + $50 = $500 for you and HD. Mastertune is $425 and you get more features with Mastertune. So whose really trying to get peoples hard earned money here!

You completely missed the mark. My software is for guys who already have the SEST or the SERT and don't want to have to spend another $400 to buy the TTS to tune it themselves.

[wavlovr1]

ToBeFrank,

So, are you saying you have software for $50 that will work with a SERT and do the same thing as VTune?  I've used SERT, TwinScan/Wego, and TTS with VTune. The Vtune was simple, fast (two twenty minute test runs set mt VEs) and bike runs cool now and performs great.  I still have a 2002 bike and a SERT so interested in anything that would work on it as good as Vtune (not sure how though without O2 sensors to verify results, just seems and software with SERT and no O2s would be guessing at best).

jb

[ToBeFrank]

So, are you saying you have software for $50 that will work with a SERT and do the same thing as VTune?  I've used SERT, TwinScan/Wego, and TTS with VTune. The Vtune was simple, fast (two twenty minute test runs set mt VEs) and bike runs cool now and performs great.  I still have a 2002 bike and a SERT so interested in anything that would work on it as good as Vtune (not sure how though without O2 sensors to verify results, just seems and software with SERT and no O2s would be guessing at best).

An open loop bike would require a wideband logging system, like the TSII+. You can't tune it without some sort of feedback.

[nc-renegade]

You said you would do it for free, so now you've backed out of that, sounds about right for you.

Not trying to get into this pissing match, but I am still waiting on a cost effective upgrade path for the SERT to TTS YOU promised when YOU first came on these boards.

What is the status of this upgrade?

[Steve Cole]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes. As for the BS with Frank one must remember who was working with HD doing calibration work and supply product and who was not.

[nc-renegade]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

[RoadKingKohn]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

[Ram]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

Which start TTS starter program did you use? And is you engine a stock TC-88 with just external mod's like exhaust and air filter?

Also in process of doing the same to my '06 FLHRI TC-88 stock engine with SE A/F and LSR 2 into 1 exhaust with 25* injectors.

[Ram]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes. As for the BS with Frank one must remember who was working with HD doing calibration work and supply product and who was not.

Steve, appreciate the update. Looking forward to the release. Trying to be patient!  Any rough estimate when things will be released? 

Thanks again, Gary

[Steve Cole]

It really depends on the Mastertune testing. Once that's done the upgrade has already been through test so it's only going to be a little test on it for the changes that were made to it. The Closed loop 2005- 2006 files are going to take some time as we are getting reports that it works for some and not for others and at this point were not sure why.

[Ardy]

Upgrade for the SERT......SEST also?

[Blackbaggr]

Ardy...

Where Mastertune apparently has plans to upgrade the SERT, the SEST is made by someone else. The reason Mastertune maybe offering upgrades to the SERT owners is because they made the SERT for HD.

[hotroadking]

be good to have an upgraded sert I have 3 friends with SERT and they would love to get vtune

Can you run vtune with Sert and Mastertune?

[RoadKingKohn]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

Which start TTS starter program did you use? And is you engine a stock TC-88 with just external mod's like exhaust and air filter?

Also in process of doing the same to my '06 FLHRI TC-88 stock engine with SE A/F and LSR 2 into 1 exhaust with 25* injectors.

I just used one that worked for a 2007 that was set-up for what you have on your bike.

My 2005 has 10 to 1 CP pistons (95 cu in) with 2006 head milled (not ported but has 1.97 Int and 1.57 Exh) to 86cc. Stock 2006 Throttle Body with 25 degree injectors, HQ-0034-G cam, and true duals with SuperTrapp SE mufflers.  It is running really well.  A lot better than it did after 1 year of tuning with the DTT.

[Ram]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

Which start TTS starter program did you use? And is you engine a stock TC-88 with just external mod's like exhaust and air filter?

Also in process of doing the same to my '06 FLHRI TC-88 stock engine with SE A/F and LSR 2 into 1 exhaust with 25* injectors.

I just used one that worked for a 2007 that was set-up for what you have on your bike.

My 2005 has 10 to 1 CP pistons (95 cu in) with 2006 head milled (not ported but has 1.97 Int and 1.57 Exh) to 86cc. Stock 2006 Throttle Body with 25 degree injectors, HQ-0034-G cam, and true duals with SuperTrapp SE mufflers.  It is running really well.  A lot better than it did after 1 year of tuning with the DTT.

? Can you check and see if it was 141NX104 or NP141-104 or NI176-002 or AE176-002 ? ?

I'm going to be wiring mine hopefully this weekend if the rain stays away and I'd like to start the tuning process at least with a map that someone has said that works?

[RoadKingKohn]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

Which start TTS starter program did you use? And is you engine a stock TC-88 with just external mod's like exhaust and air filter?

Also in process of doing the same to my '06 FLHRI TC-88 stock engine with SE A/F and LSR 2 into 1 exhaust with 25* injectors.

I just used one that worked for a 2007 that was set-up for what you have on your bike.

My 2005 has 10 to 1 CP pistons (95 cu in) with 2006 head milled (not ported but has 1.97 Int and 1.57 Exh) to 86cc. Stock 2006 Throttle Body with 25 degree injectors, HQ-0034-G cam, and true duals with SuperTrapp SE mufflers.  It is running really well.  A lot better than it did after 1 year of tuning with the DTT.

? Can you check and see if it was 141NX104 or NP141-104 or NI176-002 or AE176-002 ? ?

I'm going to be wiring mine hopefully this weekend if the rain stays away and I'd like to start the tuning process at least with a map that someone has said that works?

It has to be a 176 in order for the VTune to work. QD176-002-B1

[Ram]

Yes, we said we would release an upgrade for the SERT and it will happen, no changing our mind on it at all. The one thing we require is for it to work and be correct, not half correct! The next release of Mastertune contains the necessary modifications for this to happen, it is currently under test here. Once this is released the upgrade for the SERT will follow, not before. The SERT upgrade is for the 2005 and newer bikes.

Will the upgrade provide the necessary (I assume) firmware and wiring changes needed to add the narrowband o2 sensors to an 05 ECU?  The Vtune software will be able to be used on these bikes?

About 2 weeks ago I finished converting my 05 FLHRCI over.  I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died).  Put in my old ECM.  Programmed the ECM with the TTS and went for 2 rides.  It works great.  You just have to make sure you load a program that will work with the O2 sensors from the list.  I believe you would need a 2007 program like I did.

Which start TTS starter program did you use? And is you engine a stock TC-88 with just external mod's like exhaust and air filter?

Also in process of doing the same to my '06 FLHRI TC-88 stock engine with SE A/F and LSR 2 into 1 exhaust with 25* injectors.

I just used one that worked for a 2007 that was set-up for what you have on your bike.

My 2005 has 10 to 1 CP pistons (95 cu in) with 2006 head milled (not ported but has 1.97 Int and 1.57 Exh) to 86cc. Stock 2006 Throttle Body with 25 degree injectors, HQ-0034-G cam, and true duals with SuperTrapp SE mufflers.  It is running really well.  A lot better than it did after 1 year of tuning with the DTT.

? Can you check and see if it was 141NX104 or NP141-104 or NI176-002 or AE176-002 ? ?

I'm going to be wiring mine hopefully this weekend if the rain stays away and I'd like to start the tuning process at least with a map that someone has said that works?

It has to be a 176 in order for the VTune to work. QD176-002-B1

Thanks

[RoadKingKohn]

It has to be a 176 in order for the VTune to work. QD176-002-B1

Thanks
[/quote]
Make sure that you read the manual and the MasterTuneCalFileListing-2009.pdf (There might be a A or B after the year).  Otherwise you might blow it up. 

[Ram]

It has to be a 176 in order for the VTune to work. QD176-002-B1

Thanks

Make sure that you read the manual and the MasterTuneCalFileListing-2009.pdf (There might be a A or B after the year).  Otherwise you might blow it up. 
[/quote]
Will read the manual and observe the A or B! 

Thanks again

[nc-renegade]

I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died). 

Trying to understand this.

These are wideband sensors, correct?  I was planning to use narrowband and pin them out in the harness as per 07 and up bikes.  Are you saying the wideband sensors worked on your bike and how did you connect them into the ECU?  Does the DTT TCFI II sensors hook up to the 4 pin data port?


Regards,
NC

Perhaps Steve Cole can comment on this?

[Ram]

I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died). 

Trying to understand this.

These are wideband sensors, correct?  I was planning to use narrowband and pin them out in the harness as per 07 and up bikes.  Are you saying the wideband sensors worked on your bike and how did you connect them into the ECU?  Does the DTT TCFI II sensors hook up to the 4 pin data port?


Regards,
NC


Perhaps Steve Cole can comment on this?

You have a PM

[RoadKingKohn]

I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died). 

Trying to understand this.

These are wideband sensors, correct?  I was planning to use narrowband and pin them out in the harness as per 07 and up bikes.  Are you saying the wideband sensors worked on your bike and how did you connect them into the ECU?  Does the DTT TCFI II sensors hook up to the 4 pin data port?


Regards,
NC

Perhaps Steve Cole can comment on this?

Yes they are O2 sensors that DTT has on their web site.  Yes they are working.  Why I don't know.  But I do have them in the correct pin locations for my ECM and am using the DTT WEGO II controller.

[sportygordy]

HD gives away an excel sheet for doing it so that's no big deal! Want to guess who did it?

Sure... those guys did. I know for a fact they did not start from a spreadsheet developed by anyone else.

No one needs to pay us $400 just to tune there bike if they already have a SERT, your just trying to make yourself feel better!

How's the SERT upgrade coming along?

You said you would do it for free, so now you've backed out of that, sounds about right for you.

Yes, I did. Like I said, this is America and I'm allowed to change my mind. I'm definitely not gouging anyone at $50.

Does the GUI look just like Vtune too?

Actually it looks more like the Twin Scan as that was the inspiration.

It's a lot easier to do when all you have to do is copy someone else's work!

Next you're going to claim you wrote my wideband algorithm.

As for your test between a MT6 file and our tools pardon me if I have to call BS on that one. I would love to see that test run and cover the whole VE map area and see how close they really come. I already know that answer!

You're allowed to do that, but the data doesn't lie.

Then you are also leaving out what a customer gets when they use Mastertune Vs SESPT and you software, $459.00 + $50 = $500 for you and HD. Mastertune is $425 and you get more features with Mastertune. So whose really trying to get peoples hard earned money here!

You completely missed the mark. My software is for guys who already have the SEST or the SERT and don't want to have to spend another $400 to buy the TTS to tune it themselves.

It wont be his last either. He has a major problem comprehending issues, Not to the mention the countless times he has contradicted himself. His words have turned to a grain of salt in my book and his creditability is worthless Oh... He has an agenda too.. but he cant keep up with SOTA product's. 

[tarheelrdr]

I have an 04 ultra-113" Headquarters build, 10.5 comp. and DTT/wego setup/02 sensors installed. My question-I want to change to the TTS and use HQ's protuner. Will this system work on my bike. I still have my old ecm. Will I be able to tweak the system like the DTT ?

Thanks

Tim

[FLTRI]

Will I be able to tweak the system like the DTT ?
Simple answer: No.
IMO, the best solution with your build is to put your stock ECM back on when you get to a qualified tuner and have him get in nuts-on with a TTS Mastertune.
HTH, Bob

[Doc 1]

Will I be able to tweak the system like the DTT ?
Simple answer: No.
IMO, the best solution with your build is to put your stock ECM back on when you get to a qualified tuner and have him get in nuts-on with a TTS Mastertune.
HTH, Bob

I agree with Bob......let HQ  build heads and the tuners build the tuner.

[Don D]

I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died). 

Trying to understand this.

These are wideband sensors, correct?  I was planning to use narrowband and pin them out in the harness as per 07 and up bikes.  Are you saying the wideband sensors worked on your bike and how did you connect them into the ECU?  Does the DTT TCFI II sensors hook up to the 4 pin data port?


Regards,
NC

Perhaps Steve Cole can comment on this?

This is wacky
wida bands wego IId and the stock ecu tuned with 07 CL map???

[FLTRI]

Neat trick if you can do it.

[RoadKingKohn]

I used the O2 sensors from the DTT TCFI II that I had (the ECM died). 

Trying to understand this.

These are wideband sensors, correct?  I was planning to use narrowband and pin them out in the harness as per 07 and up bikes.  Are you saying the wideband sensors worked on your bike and how did you connect them into the ECU?  Does the DTT TCFI II sensors hook up to the 4 pin data port?


Regards,
NC

Perhaps Steve Cole can comment on this?

This is wacky
wida bands wego IId and the stock ecu tuned with 07 CL map???

So far, it is working.  Why?  I don't know.  The only thing I can think of is that the WEGO box is helping it to work with the ECM.

[Unbalanced]

I know there was another thread on RoadKingKohns setup, but I do not recall seeing any comments from Steve Cole or Doc1 about this setup and the claim that it is working with V-Tunes.   

Can the V-Tune and voltage Change work with TTS and Widebands?   Is this a possibility?    Steve I saw you quickly call BS previously in this post yet have not seen you confirm or deny this wide band link to your software.

Also you stated in this thread 05 v-tune coming in near future.   What about not using V-Tune but using the TTS calibrations and mt7 files on 02 to 04?    Is this going to be possible vs. having to keep 4.77 mt6 around and also keep TTS 130 etc on a computer together to tune your bikes?

[AkMan]

Looks like I will wait and do the upgrade when it comes out. In the meantime, i will read all I can here

[Steve Cole]

The Wide band system puts out a voltage while a stock O2 sensor switches voltage from 0 - 1 vdc. These are totally differnt things and it will not work properly. Some wide band kits have a simulated O2 output and we have found those not to be very good so we do not recommend them