HarleyTechTalk

Thanks to all those folks who helped me out with my previous thread.

Today I pulled the rear head and cylinder and found some very interesting things. I'm hoping some of you might be able to tell me where I went wrong and how to prevent it happening again.

Build
2002 Fatboy
Wiseco 95" pistons
2009 Softail heads cc'd to 83 and new valve stem seals
.005" pistons down the hole
around 10-1 comp
Cometic gaskets with .030" HG
CR575 cams
DTT ignition

I did 3 heat cycles, then a 20 mile break in ride and at the end I noticed grey smoke out the rear cylinder's muffler and the rear plug was really fouled... Then I did another 50 mile break in ride with plenty of deceleration and engine breaking to seat the rings. The smoke got a little worse rather than better, and the rear plug fouled even worse with a black wet residue....

After much discussion I pulled the top end down and this is what I found --
What concerns me the most is the cylinder wall meeting and the deep gouge toward the base.

I thought maybe the second oil ring had been installed upside down - but the marking indicates that it is right. I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SO MUCH OIL GOT IN!  Is the Valve seal?  Or the rings not seating? And should I rebuild the front cylinder / head as well just to be safe?

Thanks for any help

Intake Valve

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Exhaust Valve

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CYLINDER WALL

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is the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?

post a pic of how the ends meet


and where is the other end of this support rail ?

Keep in mind it's hard to see fine detail in a photo. But what I see looks like two things, the cylinder is possibly not round as one photo shows some heavy streaking vertically. Also the hone seems to be a bit rough, and no real pattern showing. Keep in mind that lighting and the photo sometimes makes details unclear. But that's what appears to show in the bottom photo.

Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?

post a pic of how the ends meet


and where is the other end of this support rail ?

I agree-based on the height of the scraping, it's third ring set issues- looks like the lower oil scraper got out of the groove, and machined the cylinder wall. May have slipped out of the ring compressor during installation, or the expander overlapped and pushed it out of position. Pull the rings and check for damage. May be a chunk floating in the bottom end. I'd replace that cylinder & get a set of rings for that piston.
What was the end gap set at on the rings?
As far as the expander, ends should butt in a "w", not an "m".

   Measure the distance down the cylinder that the score mark ends and then the piston and you will have the supporting  evidence.

  
Agree with all on the rings.
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. Follow the lead of others to get the rings installed properly.

   It also appears the hone was not making even contact on the bore surface.  I will add that if you can determine the cross hatch was a hand controlled "random" crosshatch" you may want to pull the other barrel (or at least the head) and check it for pattern angle too. Yeah, I know, more $$$ for gaskets but if the pattern angle is off it may show up as a problem later.

Quote from: FSG on March 04, 2018, 10:03:15 PM

Hope that posts ok, found it with a site search for oil expansion ring, shows correct installation.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Don't worry about carb or valve seals at the moment, these marks on cylinder need to be addressed first.

Quote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 02:13:49 AMis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?

post a pic of how the ends meet


and where is the other end of this support rail ?

This. Especially the question about the other end of the rail. Expansion ring looks a bit "small", are the ends overlapped?

There seems to be a couple of threads in different sections about the same topic. I'm having trouble keeping up with your progress, lol. May I suggest just adding to this thread from here on.

Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 08, 2021, 05:46:05 AM........
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. ........

My biggest problem in Australia is finding someone who will do work the way I would like. It's a lot less frustrating to just do it myself, but I can't do everything. Perhaps part of the problem is we just don't have the market for it. Although there is a lot of anti-harley sentiment here, it really doesn't matter what brand, these days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority. I reckon good on the OP for having a go.
Back on topic. I'd be pulling the front cylinder, too.

Quotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority

so true   

A car machine shop performance oriented can do them if they have the plates. I make mine.

Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?

post a pic of how the ends meet


and where is the other end of this support rail ?

Thats a very good question.... It seems I've lost a decent part of the support rail. I hope it's not somewhere in the lower end.

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Quote from: kd on November 08, 2021, 05:08:23 AM  Measure the distance down the cylinder that the score mark ends and then the piston and you will have the supporting  evidence.

Thanks kd, I dont have the right measuring tools to measure cylinder bore, just a good set of vernier calipers. I'll give it a go. Cheers

Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 08, 2021, 05:46:05 AM 
Agree with all on the rings.
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. Follow the lead of others to get the rings installed properly.

Thanks HD, that's the thing right - I took them to the one place here who does have torque plates and who does a lot of Harley stuff.... They did the Evo I last built and there were no dramas with that build. I'm definitely talking it all back to the shop and seeing what they can do. And yes, there were nice crosshatched hone marks on the cylinder walls when I got them back from machining.

Quote

Quote

Hope that posts ok, found it with a site search for oil expansion ring, shows correct installation.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Don't worry about carb or valve seals at the moment, these marks on cylinder need to be addressed first.

Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?

post a pic of how the ends meet


and where is the other end of this support rail ?

This. Especially the question about the other end of the rail. Expansion ring looks a bit "small", are the ends overlapped?

There seems to be a couple of threads in different sections about the same topic. I'm having trouble keeping up with your progress, lol. May I suggest just adding to this thread from here on.

Yes, thanks deuced. That other thread was about tuning, I only have this thread now 

The missing part of the support rail worries me...

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Also, do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it? Or am I looking at having to get another cylinder?
Thanks

Quote from: Ohio HD on November 08, 2021, 02:26:13 AMKeep in mind it's hard to see fine detail in a photo. But what I see looks like two things, the cylinder is possibly not round as one photo shows some heavy streaking vertically. Also the hone seems to be a bit rough, and no real pattern showing. Keep in mind that lighting and the photo sometimes makes details unclear. But that's what appears to show in the bottom photo.

Hey Ohio, it's just the picture that makes the cyl appear out of round. But the big streak marks are definitely there as well as a large gouge that I can easily feel with my finger.

Quotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

    that's what I'd do

Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2021, 01:20:32 AM

Quotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

    that's what I'd do

OK thanks.... I'm going to see the machinist tomorrow and will see what he can do about it.
Cheers

Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2021, 01:20:32 AM

Quotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?

    that's what I'd do

Thanks FSG, 3.875" bore plus .020" oversize pistons...
What bore size head gasket would I use??  I've only found std 95" 3.875"  or bigger 98" 3.937"  ?

I'd use the same big bore gaskets you used the first time. They measure 3.950-3.955 installed, plenty of room for .020 over.

If the piston wasn't damaged by the oil ring rail fiasco, I might consider coming up with another seasoned cylinder and re-bore it to size. Maybe less hassle and cost? 

Quote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 01:30:30 PM

Quotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority

so true   

done ? or done correct ?

Quote from: hbkeith on November 09, 2021, 06:16:27 AM

Quote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 01:30:30 PM

Quotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority

so true   

done ? or done correct ?

The effort is the thing, we've all done things wrong once or twice, but the key is to try.

I recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.

Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 09, 2021, 07:13:35 AMI recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.

  Sounds like a great option.