HarleyTechTalk

Snuffy, am using one of those old aluminum tear drop "S&S Cycle" covers, on a home made flat aluminum base. Using a paper element from NAPA. I had it on my Evo for years, seemed to work great.

Wally, the exhaust should be pretty free flowing, Cycle Shacks with the baffles removed! Yeah I have an S&S E, might try that but would need to round up a different throttle cable and make a bracket for the air cleaner. Not a lot of work, but more than droping it off with Roger and his dyno and saying "here ya go, call me when it's done".


I don't think the jetting I have in it now is unreasonable, so doubt that is the issue. Probably more related to timing, and for what ever reason, I can't seem to see the damn timing mark with a strobe light. Or rather I see it, but I don't trust what I'm seeing as it is clearly not correct. Will let somebody else give it go.

-JW

Far fetched but does your electronic ignition have a "cup" and is it in any way possible to install it wrong?

Mark

    The timing cup...   The infamous timing cup...

JW, the cable you are using for the CV should work with the S&S E.    Have you validated that the slide is lifting?  (maybe I wore out the diaphram too)

If you put the E on there, beware of the cover clearance with the 5 gallon tanks.

Yeah, timing cup. The only reason I bring it up is it sounds like JW can't find or doesn't agree with his timing marks.
I've heard of them cut and/or keyed wrong.

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Yeah wasn't poo pooin ya Mark.   

JW was fighting the timing cup for a couple months trying to get the ignition working, it'd only fire on one cylinder with the cup he got from V-Twin, finally found an oem cup at a dealer and voila it fixed that problem.   

So, is there a different cup for an evo vs a shovel?   

The problem with the throttle cable is CV is on front side, S&S is on back side. The cable I have is barely long enough for the CV, won't reach far enough for the S&S. For the air cleaner, the base plate has the carb opening shifted up, so the a/c sits lower. The one on my CV is dead center, hence I had to "trim" it to keep it out of the tank.

As Bob said, I went through THREE Hi4N modules before I finally figured out that POS V-Taiwin cup was garbage and got an OEM. For the Hi4N, the cups are all the same (Evo style).

The slide is lifting, checked it with the a/c cover off.

So here is a question to ponder: What happens when you put two Holley 850cfm 4 bbl carbs on a 1.8L four banger?
(or maybe a less colorful way to ask: what are the symptoms of an engine that is over-carbureted?)

-JW

You sure you have an E?  I thought you had a B (or rather a couple of Bs).  Maybe an E came on the bike?  The E on my shovel absolutely needed a trimmed cover.   I thought I used same cable on my evo switching between the CV and E... but it's been many years.

Your CV is not going to let the carb be too big.  By design.  If anything your scoot is acting like it's under carb'd.  Put an 850 double pumper or two on a small engine the engine won't take any throttle without bog, but nurse it up to 6k RPM it'd be happier if the mixture was right.  :-)   2 rotor wankels with a 750 double pumper was a hot rod mod back in the day.  I think they were 2liter.

QuoteJW was fighting the timing cup for a couple months trying to get the ignition working, it'd only fire on one cylinder with the cup he got from V-Twin, finally found an oem cup at a dealer and voila it fixed that problem.   

I had forgotten about that discussion, 

It's been a while but as I recall when I went to a CV I also when to a 96 and up throttle assemble and cable.

Even farther back, when I went to the E from the K9 butterfly, the free length of the cable was too long and I tied a strategically placed knot in it to shorten it up for a few days until I got another one. Man, nothing but fugly flashbacks now, get out the duct tape. 

  the CV is not too big, I keep thinking some kind of intake leak but I've been wrong a few thousand times in my life.

Yeah but all there is doesn't sound like Waaaaaaaaaaaabupbupbupbup!

And that has to be timing. Or I really am hitting the rev limiter! Going to test that theory tomorrow.

-JW

   You don't need the A/C to test the S&S Carb.on the Bike . If you had an extra Throttle Cable laying around , you could just swap it onto the Throttle to run the S&S & leave the other in place , use a Zip Tie to keep it out of the way for the test .

    If you don't know where your Timing is , trying to adj. the Carb. or getting the best performance ,would be kinda difficult  .  Can't you use a Degree Wheel to check timing .

I always say don't work on the carb for an electrical problem!

Is the throttle plate/butterfly opening all the way on wide open throttle? I have had to adjust a few over the years, the accel pump rod can hold it from opening all the way.
Can't help you with timing.

So a quick update.

Roadrage Bob and I went for a fabulous February spin up in the Santa Cruz mountains this afternoon, he on his roadglide and me on my Electra Glide. He came by and we re-checked the ignition timing, which was WAY too advanced. We dialed it back to where I had originally timed it. Then hit the road for a nice shake down cruise for the old shovelhead and a FI tune ride for the Roadglide.

All in all we did about 85 miles (I think) with a lot of mixed high speed freeway, easy foothill roads, and windy mountain roads with nice sweepers. Blasting up I-280 at 80mph or so, we peeled off at Portola Valley road and wound our way over to legendary Highway 84, and followed a doofus in an Audi up to Alice's Restaurant at 84/35 junction. We blew through Alice's and took 84 on over to La Honda. At that point Bob left me in the dust and wrung out his TC, while I lumbered along on the old shovelhead, doing 60 a lot of the time in a 40 zone. Have to say, the old 4 speed chassis handles WAY better than the Softail I used to ride. I was trying to take it somewhat easy, as I did not want to tempt fate with those banana calipers on these downhill sweeping turns. Also, had a couple of surprises with water running across the road in some of the turns.

We pull over at Apple Jacks in La Honda and tossed back some beer. Shovelhead seemed to be running sweet, lots of torque but as been my complaint, not a lot of power to be had past 1/2 throttle or so. It has no problem holding it's own, but just don't ask too much of it.

We re-grouped and headed back up the hill to Alice's, then down Hwy 35 toward Saratoga. I had forgotten how the road up there has gone to "Potty mouth", and with Progressive springs in the front forks of the shovelhead, it was a bit of an unpleasant ride. Also, I started to hear a strange whisking noise coming from the rear of the bike. Brakes? Wheel bearings??

We got to Hwy 9 and headed down the hill toward Saratoga. Have to say, with tall gearing and an FLH transmission, going down hill on steep turns is not the most pleasant experience. Could not find a "happy" gear to be in, 2nd was to low and 3rd was too high. Anyway, with lots of gear shifting and braking we rolled into Saratoga, then peeled off to the right on Hwy 9 to Los Gatos and to a funkly high brow bar called Jack Rose to "re-fuel".

Bob told me the shovelhead was spewing lots of blue smoke coming down the hill. Hmm. Must be sucking it past the rings on deaccel? Dunno. It ran fine, no oddities from the pilot cabin that I could tell. Anyway, we pulled down a couple Negroni's, maybe one more than is politically correct. The sun had set and it started to get a bit chilly, so we saddled up and pointed the mules back to the barn.

A short jog down Hwy 9 to Hwy 17N up to San Jose, and we were on our way home. As is typical here, as soon as we got on the slab it was grid lock freeway, so we split cars as is done here to get the heck out of Dodge. I could not help but notice that in that close proximity, a screetchy sound bouncing off the cars to the right as I past them. Hmmm?? Brake disk?? After about 2 miles, the traffic eased up and we were humming along at 80mph. And then, out of nowhere, BAPPP BAPPP BAPPP, and back to the steady rumble of your typical HD. Damn, what now? I slowed it down a bit, maybe 70, and aging BAPP BAPP, BAPP. So over one more lane into the "slow lane" (oh the shame my brothers, I suck) and settled into a steady 65. After that, no problems at all until we pulled off at our exit and chugged home.

I pulled over at Bob's house, and we touched based a bit. He said some big old fireballs shot out the exhaust when I had felt the coughs that the motor had spewed. Hmm, I am thinking electrical. The thing had ran great up to that point, and did not complain at all over the course of our ride. Damn crappy switches? Flakey terminal block? Dunno.

Bob noticed the top edge of my rear brake disk was trashed, and sure enough, it was. The caliper seems to be riding on the disk. Time to get out the grinder and make some clearance? Anyway, that I think is the source that strange noise.

All in all, the old shovelhead did great. Hey, it made it home! What more do you want? I have a few more gremlins to flush out, but that's the fun in all this right? Away spirits, away with ye!!!

About the jetting and all. I am pretty much convinced at this point it's all in my head. 50HP is 50HP, and after a certain point, all the throttle in the world is not going to make this bike pull any harder than it can. Today has been a fantastic mind calibration excercise. The bike is a hoot to ride, just focus on the journey and not on how fast you can get to the destination. As it should be, right?

-JW

First, great ride! I wish I could have been there.

All the popping etc is not normal, you still have a gremlin or two to sort out... or just ride it. My dad always said that if it's bad it'll get worse then you'll find it.  It can get expensive chasing a gremlin, but he didn't bother to tell me it can get expensive if you wait it out too. 

When my rear bushings were shot the nanner would twist and rub the disc making all manner of ugly noise. I can't recall where I got them now but the bushings and pins are not hard to change.  Eventually I went to a GMA rear caliper and mount, the stock 3/4 bore master worked fine but a 5/8 bore gives it a bit softer more predictable pedal.
Mark

Have you checked the slide diaphragm in the carb for rips or tears? My bike was doing the same thing, run good, but not make power in the upper range.

I would still try the S&S , but it is starting to sound like it could be an electrical issue , but by switching carbs , you will know for sure if its fuel delivery or electrical i.e.,ignition , timing or a short of some sort . Coils will act up when hot .
I have owned & worked on a lot of Shovels & 50HP doesn't mean they won't go 100mph, just takes them longer to get there if set up properly , if you want to believe these old Speedo's , that is .
  My Panheads will not do what you are saying (both with CV 40's ), you should be able to go WOT & not have issues , well except for top end , of course.
  How do the plugs look after your ride ?

Good write up JW!   A very nice little ride.

Before we headed out I rode the shovelhead after the timing changes.  I think it's running better than it had been previously.  Was able to get er up to speed much better than before and didn't have as obvious a Wall.  But still, above about 1/2 throttle the twistgrip transforms to a volume knob, making more noise and not much more lol   

I was hearing the rear disk dragging for quite a while after our ride back from Apple Jacks.  Not sure when exactly it had started but it was really obvious rolling into the parking lot at Jack Rose. 

The back fires were LOUD from where I was lol   Nice pyrotecnics.  JW had ear plugs in, I did not.       Shotgun blasts aimed at me lol

Good ride...

Mark: "All the popping etc is not normal, you still have a gremlin or two to sort out."

No doubt, and am pretty sure I have a flaky connection somewhere in the circuit between the battery/ign switch/junction box/run-off switch/junction box/coil. That's quite a convoluted path, and the first thing I am suspicious of is that run-off switch. The wiring harness in the handle bars is new that I got of eBay. I already had to replace the front brake switch with an OEM HD one. Maybe time to do the same for the run-off switch. But I've had almost identical symptoms before on other bike, which turned out to be a bad crimp on the battery wire terminal on the ignition switch. Basically, symptom is like the ign power gets interrupted for a 1/2 second.

Mark: "When my rear bushings were shot the nanner would twist and rub the disc making all manner of ugly noise. "

The pins and bushings are all new, I did the whole 9 yards when I rebuild the calipers. Not sure yet what's going on, will pull it down today hopefully and get an eyeball on it. I don't think it was making any noise until we came down off the mountain. Hwy 9 is not super steep, but it does give yer brakes a pretty good workout. Lots of down grade switchbacks and such, and if you don't have the gears (like this FLH4 speed), the brakes get even more worked. Clearly the disk is contacting the caliber body, and I'm wondering if the disk got hot and warped a bit? I am using one of those solid disks, no holes in it anywhere except for the bolt holes and hub center. Hmmm....

Hossamania: "Have you checked the slide diaphragm in the carb for rips or tears?"

Twice, at least. Have had that CV apart quite a few times trying to figure out what is going on. So far, everything checks out 100%.

fourthgear: "I would still try the S&S , but it is starting to sound like it could be an electrical issue"

Definitely electrical and not fuel delivery. It happens real quick, then resumes right back to running great. Just as if you had your thumb on the run-off switch, and flicked it quickly.

fourthgear: "I have owned & worked on a lot of Shovels & 50HP doesn't mean they won't go 100mph, just takes them longer to get there if set up properly"

Agree 100%, and that is basically how this one is running. I'm not saying it won't go fast, just saying it doesn't have much more "pull" beyond 1/2 throttle. But at 1/2 throttle, yes it will go 100mph if you want, just take a while to get there. 80mph is no problem at all on this thing. However comfort factor starts to come into play at that speed, the vibes in the bars are coming through pretty good. At 65, it's as smooth as glass, and 70-75 is no big deal. 80 and higher, is getting into the un-fun zone.

fourthgear: "My Panheads will not do what you are saying (both with CV 40's ), you should be able to go WOT & not have issues , well except for top end , of course.  How do the plugs look after your ride ?"


The only issue I have with WOT is that it doesn't pull a whole lot more than 1/2 throttle, but the dyno will tell all. Will try to schedule an appointment this week and see what is up. Here's my somewhat warped thinking. A 40mm CV is a pretty big carb. This one was on a 110HP TC-95 for a  while (Bob's Roadglide!). If it can supply a 110HP bike with enough air, then it surely has got plenty of "reserve" for a 50HP bike. Dunno, will chase this one down until I get to the bottom of it.

Good point about the plugs, will have a look this morning. Hoping that what ever was causing the downhill smoke hasn't trashed 'em.

Shovelhead: It's not a motorcycle, it's a life long works in progress


cheers,
-JW

Shovelhead: It's not a motorcycle, it's a life long works in progress


Dunno, mine has a rebuilt pretty much stock engine with Tillitson and points. She just runs now without problems for a few miles now. Will see how she does during the season.

Well, I spent today taking a look at the <stalll... KA-BANG> problem my FLH developed a few weeks ago. I was pretty sure it was in the electrical side, since the symptom was almost exact of flipping the Run-Off switch while going down the road.

The ignition swith, and also the Run-Stop switch, are both aftermarket CRAP. Therefore, I hunted around at the various HD dealers across the nation and secured some stock parts. They both showed up this week, and thus today I went to install them. I started with the ignition switch, since it is the easier of the two. After pulling the dash bezel, I saw what is in the pic below. I know most of you guys are pretty smart, but can you guess what the source of the KA-BANG problem is?

With picture!

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As with all things Shovelhead, Loctite is your friend. Use it, or lose "it".

-JW

Well that might cause some issues. Bummer you had to spend money on parts to find it. But now you have spares.
Let us know if that fixes the problem, though it is a pretty obvious flaw. Good job chasing it as an electrical problem instead of just fuel.

Quote from: JW113 on April 03, 2016, 07:48:50 PM
With picture!

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As with all things Shovelhead, Loctite is your friend. Use it, or lose "it".

-JW

If you have an original ignition switch with a matching in good or NOS condition to spare I buy it from you. Hard to come by over here.

Well Vienna, the NOS ignition switch (says Made In Japan) is now on my bike. The aftermarket one (says Made in Taiwan) is on the bench. I think you do not want that one. Besides being worn out, and crunchy feeling, it's crap from Taiwan.

I ordered a new one from St. Charles Harley Davidson. I can not be sure, but I think if you contact them, they would send you one.

http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/OEMpartfinder.htm

For the Run-Stop switch, I had to call about 5 dealerships that were "supposed" to have an OEM one in stock, but only number 5 (in Kansas) did. Good luck finding another one of those!

-JW