HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => Shovel Head => Topic started by: waltcentral on May 17, 2020, 11:03:09 AM

Title: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 17, 2020, 11:03:09 AM
  Last weekend I was planning on having the 83 FLH back on the road. In setting up the Daytona TwinTec 1005  I apparently knocked one of the magnets off the hall effect sensors and had to order a new uni. I started back again today installing the new control unit. I still cannot set static timing.
When I called Daytona last week for support I also asked them why I was getting 12 volts at the center connector (battery volts) and also 12 volts of secondary or trigger pins for front and rear cylinders. Tech support said I could have a wiring problem.  While I was waiting for the new control unit I checked all the wiring and can find no problem.
  ***I am still getting 12 volts across all the connectors****
  I think I have a bad single fire coil. 
  I am going to install the dual fire coil from the Dyna S and see if I can set static timing right now.

It seems all to lead to a issue with the coil,   Any help?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Pirsch Fire Wagon on May 17, 2020, 11:08:42 AM
It's not unheard of having a defective part right out of the Box. Personally, I have issues as well with the Twin-Tec on setting the static timing unless I'm replacing one and I mark the set points. There are numerous that have LED indicators that "get you in the ballpark". And, who doesn't love getting soaked with oil doing the final timing. :)
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 17, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
OK I installed  my Dyna dual fire coil and same results. white wire and White Black wire from ignition connected to one terminal and pink wire to another. Tried to rotate the module to turn the red light on and off and nothing.
I wonder if the module is getting a good ground. When I had the Dyna S on there is said in the instructions to hold the ignition plate against the nose cone to make good contact. Along with everything else I installed a new cam, an ignition cup and a new chrome Drag cam cover.
I hate the fact that the Twin Tec does not have a status light that works without the bike running.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: kink04fxd on May 17, 2020, 06:56:42 PM
"And, who doesn't love getting soaked with oil doing the final timing". :)
Time it through the primary chain inspection hole and you won't get soaked with oil.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 17, 2020, 07:36:31 PM
You putting the TDC mark or the 35° advanced mark in the hole to static time?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Pirsch Fire Wagon on May 17, 2020, 09:19:26 PM
Quote from: kink04fxd on May 17, 2020, 06:56:42 PM
"And, who doesn't love getting soaked with oil doing the final timing". :)
Time it through the primary chain inspection hole and you won't get soaked with oil.

Done that 2 with white paint marker - Back in the day looked like a SWAT Guy approaching suspect with timing light and Safety Glasses - LOL
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: crock on May 18, 2020, 04:46:05 AM
Quote from: cheech on May 17, 2020, 07:36:31 PM
You putting the TDC mark or the 35° advanced mark in the hole to static time?

A little pricie but I love it
https://www.jpcycles.com/product/911-671/v-twin-manufacturing-timing-device?redirectedKeyword=911671&totalResult=1
Set TDC, paint a mark on the rotor and time it thru the inspection hole like an old small block chevy
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 04:53:08 AM
 On the late model Shovel's the TDC mark is is the solid line. Piston is a Top and line is centered.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Hossamania on May 18, 2020, 05:04:48 AM
Is that for the front or rear cylinder?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: kink04fxd on May 18, 2020, 06:11:40 AM
Front.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 07:03:38 AM
Any of my bikes that run the very best I can get out of them, I have no Idea where the Timing is set...But, as all here know, I final tune at the DragStrip..
BTW for some reason "pink wire" sticks in my Head as "out" to Tach...
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 08:03:34 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 04:53:08 AM
On the late model Shovel's the TDC mark is is the solid line. Piston is a Top and line is centered.
Verify I guess. Snip below for 80 and later. Then they still have Early style and late style marks shown. So when was the cutoff?  :nix:
1005 Says to be on TDC. I could see if you are on the 35° mark, the notch in the rotor would be too far out to get the light to trigger on and off by rotating the plate.
Anyway, put it on the dot and see if you can get it static timed. You got nothing to lose. What style dot does your wheels have?
[attach=0,msg1347514]

Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 08:43:03 AM
I'm thinking my 1983 had a Lazy 8 kinda mark for front cyl advanced... Looking
Yep... Like this.. Odd Mark
(http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/images/ignition_figure_1.gif)

Static time then Fine Tune... I have never run a "one size fits all" tune so.. Once Static timed... I shut the hole!!~!~!
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 08:43:03 AM
I'm thinking my 1983 had a Lazy 8 kinda mark for front cyl advanced... Looking
We were typing at same time. LOL Lazy 8 was rear advanced I believe.  Mark 4 in snip.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: cheech on May 18, 2020, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 08:43:03 AM
I'm thinking my 1983 had a Lazy 8 kinda mark for front cyl advanced... Looking
We were typing at same time. LOL Lazy 8 was rear advanced I believe.  Mark 4 in snip.

Agreee... lazy 8 was 20 degree on post 1996... I don't know what to call that odd mark on the late Shovel... but thats the one to static off of...and you won't find the lazy 8 on no Shovel anyways...
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Burnout on May 18, 2020, 09:17:35 AM
DO NOT GUESS on timing marks!!!!    :gob:

Remove the plugs and probe the top of the piston and slowly rotate the motor.
When you feel the piston at the top, look in the timing hole, that is your TDC mark.
Then rotate the motor backwards and watch the timing hole and the first mark you see will be the advance mark.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 10:51:33 AM
Like Burnout said. Front cylinder at top and late style marks on flywheel.
1) installed a JP Cycles replacement for the Harley ignition timing cup.
2) with key on and kill switch on I have battery voltage to coil
3) following the pictures on the Daytona instructions the ignition rotor cutouts are at 1:00 o'clock top and 7:00 o'clock at the bottom
4) I have no measurable shorts that I can detect
5) the cam cover rim the the 1005 Twin Tec sets on has strong continuity to ground
6) The ignition cup has good ground

Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 11:12:02 AM
Quote from: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 08:52:52 AM
Agreee... lazy 8 was 20 degree on post 1996... I don't know what to call that odd mark on the late Shovel... but thats the one to static off of...and you won't find the lazy 8 on no Shovel anyways...
I always thought the Shovel was considered a "lazy 8". I'd call that 20° mark on that pic for 96 as a double dot. YMMV
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 11:14:35 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 10:51:33 AM
Like Burnout said. Front cylinder at top and late style marks on flywheel.
1) installed a JP Cycles replacement for the Harley ignition timing cup.
2) with key on and kill switch on I have battery voltage to coil
3) following the pictures on the Daytona instructions the ignition rotor cutouts are at 1:00 o'clock top and 7:00 o'clock at the bottom
4) I have no measurable shorts that I can detect
5) the cam cover rim the the 1005 Twin Tec sets on has strong continuity to ground
6) The ignition cup has good ground

Well at this point why get hung up on static timing it? The module will end up nearly vertical or off slightly. So cinch it down there. Start it and time it with a light. Then it's nailed down. No guessing.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 11:19:37 AM
I guess I don't see any Guessing...it either has that Particular mark... before the "T" TDC, or it Don't..
Static timed then Tuned in in Whatever means one deems necessary... again ... In My World... One Size [adjustment] Does Not Fit All... Like Asking where my Carburetor is Set!!!!
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 11:40:54 AM
Quote from: Racepres on May 18, 2020, 11:19:37 AM
I guess I don't see any Guessing...
The no guessing wasn't meant as to him guessing what marks.
It was in regards to him not being able to get the LED lit then go out to static time it.
If he's piddling with it and the fact he can't get the LED to light may be holding him up on finishing it.
Which appears to be the case as he started this thread.  :nix:

If it was in front of me, I'd be inclined to say F it, "guess" a spot where the timing is going to end up. Then light it up to set the timing.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 12:04:47 PM
I agree with your sentiment Cheech but this kit was too expensive to accept it not working as designed. And if it is working properly what am I missing. I build vacuum tube electronics as a hobby and in comparison this stuff should be pretty simple.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 12:30:56 PM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 12:04:47 PM
I agree with your sentiment Cheech but this kit was too expensive to accept it not working as designed. And if it is working properly what am I missing. I build vacuum tube electronics as a hobby and in comparison this stuff should be pretty simple.
I agree with you also. Hair raising when components don't work as designed.  :banghead:
Have you turned on, then rocked back and forth as per the instructions? Take note of the bold italicized note in step 4 of the static time procedure.

I'd also be inclined to have the module off where you can get to the sensor slot, but grounded against the cone, ignition on and try sliding a small thin sheet between there.
See if you can trigger the LED.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 17, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
OK I installed  my Dyna dual fire coil and same results. white wire and White Black wire from ignition connected to one terminal and pink wire to another.
I'm puzzled on this??
Only a white/black from module should be powering the module.
The only other wire with white involved is a purple/white that goes to a VOES if used. Otherwise insulate.

Are you inadvertently connecting that wire to a 12 volt source at coil?
Or is the white from your switch?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 02:37:19 PM
Thanks Cheech. I was able to get the LED to come on and off but I had the module pulled part of the way out. It makes sense that it would NOT illuminate when first turned on because it requires a few rotations before firing unless programmed for kick start. 
As always "understanding is the BOOBY prize in life."
I do not like this timing cup, it can cock to one side.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 18, 2020, 02:57:17 PM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 18, 2020, 02:37:19 PM
I do not like this timing cup, it can cock to one side.
The tang in the slot of cam? Easy to smash them if not?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 03:20:40 AM
The tang fits in but the bottom of the recess that the cam fits in has a rounded shoulder instead of being round and flat at the bottom like a soup can.  If you look at Daytona TT website and search for rotor it is made correctly. I am not sure what a stock H-D model looks like.
Again thanks here to Cheech  for the help.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 03:27:24 AM
Quote from: cheech on May 18, 2020, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 17, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
OK I installed  my Dyna dual fire coil and same results. white wire and White Black wire from ignition connected to one terminal and pink wire to another.
I'm puzzled on this??
Only a white/black from module should be powering the module.
The only other wire with white involved is a purple/white that goes to a VOES if used. Otherwise insulate.

Are you inadvertently connecting that wire to a 12 volt source at coil?

I missed this question yesterday. On my bike there is a white wire connected to the kill switch/ignition switch and the white/black connects to the same post.
Or is the white from your switch?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 19, 2020, 07:56:11 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 03:20:40 AM
The tang fits in but the bottom of the recess that the cam fits in has a rounded shoulder instead of being round and flat at the bottom like a soup can.  If you look at Daytona TT website and search for rotor it is made correctly. I am not sure what a stock H-D model looks like.
Again thanks here to Cheech  for the help.
Well A OEM is only a $10-ish dollar part if that copy irks you to bad.
OEM pictures below if you wanted to compare.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 19, 2020, 09:18:09 AM
You guys beat me to it, buy my question to Walt was going to be: Where did you get the timing cup? If it's aftermarket, toss it in the trash and get an OEM one. I fought similar problems years ago with a non-stock timing cup. After getting the OEM, the bike fired right up. In comparing the OEM vs. Aftermarket, the slots were not cut in the same place. Just one more thing to rule out.

-JW
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 09:29:30 AM
I work at H-D of Frederick, MD. The owner said he sold off the last one he had to ebay.  I ordered one from Daytona that looks exactly like yours. I know it will arrive here by Saturday.  I don't mind paying for stuff that works. I may order the harley part as a back up.
Thanks again!
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: turboprop on May 19, 2020, 09:51:42 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 09:29:30 AM
I work at H-D of Frederick, MD. The owner said he sold off the last one he had to ebay.  I ordered one from Daytona that looks exactly like yours. I know it will arrive here by Saturday.  I don't mind paying for stuff that works. I may order the harley part as a back up.
Thanks again!

Wait a minute, you work at a harley dealership. Curious, what department do you work in at this dealership and why are the techs not hooking you up?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 10:09:39 AM
  This is prime season for service and even at my labor rate I do my own work. I am in the sales dept.  I work cheap but am not very quick.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
  JW113 I ordered the stock timing cup also, good info, thanks.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Racepres on May 19, 2020, 11:24:32 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 19, 2020, 09:29:30 AM
I work at H-D of Frederick, MD. The owner said he sold off the last one he had to ebay.  I ordered one from Daytona that looks exactly like yours. I know it will arrive here by Saturday.  I don't mind paying for stuff that works. I may order the harley part as a back up.
Thanks again!
Been there... Prolly Seen Ya!!!!
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Burnout on May 19, 2020, 06:07:30 PM
Just because a tech works at a dealership does not qualify him/her to work on 30 year old bikes with aftermarket parts.

At the prices they charge your not likely to want to pay him to learn.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 19, 2020, 06:58:34 PM
I had run by the dealership on my FLH to see if they had a part in stock (not, of course), went to out to the parking lot to leave, and a kid (one of the HD techs) was checking out my bike. Says "nice bike man. Is that a Fatboy?" I had to explain to him it was the Fatboy's grandpa, a Shovelhead. LOL!

-JW
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Burnout on May 19, 2020, 08:18:43 PM
idiot: "Is that a Harley?"

Me: "No, it's an FXR."
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 20, 2020, 03:44:48 AM
We are running short staffed because of the virus so the GM's backup ordered my rotor cup. She looked at the screen and paused , said my price was $6.66 cents.
Racepres look me up if you ever come by, Walter.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 20, 2020, 07:02:20 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 20, 2020, 03:44:48 AM
We are running short staffed because of the virus so the GM's backup ordered my rotor cup. She looked at the screen and paused , said my price was $6.66 cents.
Well Walter that's why we wondered why you just didn't go that route the first time?
Covid stuff have it backorderd maybe and the JP was available right away?
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 20, 2020, 09:06:45 AM
I was off work for 6 weeks and live 60 miles from work. Shipments have been slow but the rotor came in today. It seems they were packing an overnight shipment and they threw it in that box.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: cheech on May 20, 2020, 09:09:06 AM
Quote from: waltcentral on May 20, 2020, 09:06:45 AM
I was off work for 6 weeks and live 60 miles from work. Shipments have been slow but the rotor came in today. It seems they were packing an overnight shipment and they threw it in that box.
:up: Makes sense. Well hopefully you're back at work and moving some inventory.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 21, 2020, 01:22:30 AM
Back to work a week and a half and sold 4 bikes, two of those were v-rods. Weird!
My rotor cup showed up, they were packing up an overnight box and threw it in with the rest of the stuff. Fits perfect but getting the light on-off is still a little wonky. I would like to place the 1005 in kick start mode to see if that helps. Hopefully with single fire I will be able to see the timing marks through the clear plastic lens to get the advance set correctly. I have a dial back timing light.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 21, 2020, 09:03:16 AM
Just for grins, how about centering the module in the adjustment slots, and see if the thing will fire up? That will tell you if the module is working or not. Adjust the timing with a light afterwards.

-JW
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 21, 2020, 09:46:54 AM
They show a picture of the module as in a finished install in the instructions. I have gotten the light to come while lifting the module away from the seat. So that will have to be good enough. It doesn't take much to be 2-3 degrees off though.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: billbuilds on May 21, 2020, 10:02:22 AM
     Do you have washers on the studs that hold the module in place?  If not you might want to install them and see if it makes a difference. IIRC you need them w/ the points setup or it'll stop firing when you loosen the studs to adjust the plate. 
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 21, 2020, 10:15:49 AM
2-3 degrees off is going to make no difference to get it started. Again, I think you need to worry about timing accuracy AFTER it's running.

-JW
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 21, 2020, 01:44:12 PM
I hope I can see the flywheel marks through the plastic lens, single fire is supposed to help.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 21, 2020, 04:19:19 PM
It does. As does using florescent orange paint on the timing mark.

-JW
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: Hossamania on May 21, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Polish the lens to get it as clear as possible.
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: waltcentral on May 25, 2020, 01:37:07 PM
    I need to thank all that responded to my post. I am going to contact Daytona as well just to let them know that the tech was right all along in the fact that there was a wiring problem.
    I attempted to start the bike and only got a click from the relay but touching a wire from batt + to the post on the solenoid that energizes the solenoid it cranked. Pulled battery tray and checked all wires no problem found.
    I started on ign switch wiring.   (I replaced the old ign switch) And I discovered two problems. 1)no oil light, 2)the turn signals only operate with headlamps on.  Did a google search and found a picture of a shovel ignition and the jumper wires we crossed under themselves. So I made mine look like the picture and everything works as it should even setting the static timing came up immediately after a couple of wiggles.
     The lesson here is do not do more than one thing at a time. 
  Walt
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: 76shuvlinoff on May 25, 2020, 06:41:24 PM
QuoteThe lesson here is do not do more than one thing at a time. 

Like changing cam(s) and carbs?   Guilty.... twice.  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Daytona twin tec woes
Post by: JW113 on May 26, 2020, 05:17:30 PM
In my case it's more often to tear everything down to the last nut and bolt, and rebuild it back from there. So pretty much everything has been changed at the same time. This is why it can take quite some time to chase out all the bugs after a restoration. Just part of the adventure, and a test of one's troubleshooting skills.

-JW