HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Adam76 on August 07, 2023, 04:48:04 AM

Quote from: Hossamania on August 06, 2023, 05:19:57 PMShould be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

OK, thanks Hoss. Didn't think it would be that much.

Of course exhaust will play a big part in this.

Quote from: Hossamania on August 07, 2023, 05:02:56 AM

Quote from: Adam76 on August 07, 2023, 04:48:04 AM

Quote from: Hossamania on August 06, 2023, 05:19:57 PMShould be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

OK, thanks Hoss. Didn't think it would be that much.

Of course exhaust will play a big part in this.

Well, we know what exhaust we're dealing with    Cobra softail true dual fishtails.

If I'm going to suggest a bolt in only camshaft,  it has to be one that will work best with the "not so great" exhaust. 

I'm not sure there is a better bolt in cam than the stock cam given the exhaust system.....  Maybe the Tman555 or the Andrews 48. But like I said,  not sure it's worth it with this exhaust, and $$ is tight at the moment.

Thanks.

Tractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

Take off 255s can sometimes be found pretty cheap.
It will need a tune, of course.
Cheapest bang for the buck with that exhaust.

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 07, 2023, 03:50:37 PMTractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

Thanks, I'll look into them.

A 4 degree advance sprocket on the stock 103 HO cams makes the all the events almost identical to the SE255, just less lift. Cheaper way to go, and easier to put back if the pipes preferred it how it was

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 07, 2023, 03:50:37 PMTractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

Thanks, that type of cam, plus lowered gearing with a 30T pulley should be a good set up.

Quote from: FXDBI on July 27, 2023, 11:01:26 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on July 27, 2023, 10:41:54 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2023, 05:57:00 PMIf you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 25, 2023, 08:37:39 PMTruthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


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This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

Quote from: Adam76 on October 28, 2023, 08:24:49 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 25, 2023, 08:37:39 PMTruthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


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This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

Adding a 1.9" intake and just some mild port work to both intake and exhaust will help across the entire RPM range. Staying with a stock TB limits to the extent that "top shelf" ported heads can deliver anyway.
Also keep in mind the Fatcat pipe is helping the lower end.

This is a heavy bike, a touring, and it still was much stronger than a stocker. A little head work and a pro tune, probably 110 HP, 115 TQ or so.

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 28, 2023, 08:49:27 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on October 28, 2023, 08:24:49 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 25, 2023, 08:37:39 PMTruthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


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This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

Adding a 1.9" intake and just some mild port work to both intake and exhaust will help across the entire RPM range. Staying with a stock TB limits to the extent that "top shelf" ported heads can deliver anyway.
Also keep in mind the Fatcat pipe is helping the lower end.

This is a heavy bike, a touring, and it still was much stronger than a stocker. A little head work and a pro tune, probably 110 HP, 115 TQ or so.

A few decisions have been made with all your great input and he's happy with this set up.

Apologies for this taking so long, just wanted to get it right the first time 

KB Flat top 107" pistons
.005 down the hole
.030 head gasket
84cc heads
Stock heads with mild valve job and 1.9 intake valves
Compression set at 10.3
S&S 570 cams with EZ start so there's no need for installing manual compression releases.
Supertrapp 2-1 pipe or stock headers and slip on mufflers.

Looking for most TQ 2200rpm - 4500rpm

 

Here's a 107" with stock heads and Andrews 50 cams. And this was tuned by someone that knows how. Brian at Powerglides.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38227.0.html





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Nice. That is an impressive TQ curve!!

And proof you can get good results even when you use stock heads.

Quote from: Adam76 on October 28, 2023, 08:18:15 PM

Quote from: FXDBI on July 27, 2023, 11:01:26 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on July 27, 2023, 10:41:54 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2023, 05:57:00 PMIf you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

Not my recipe just $$$ but these were a fathers day gift from my son years back when I did a 95.
I am using a set of 2006 castings done up by Headquarters !.9/1.6 with 83cc chamber, his high velocity port with stock intake runner, set up for .600 lift also bronze guides. Currently using them with a  110 SE drop on kit and S&S 585 ES, stock TB,2016 take out 43/8 crank. No Dyno sheet but very happy with it. I like those ES cams.

Quote from: FXDBI on October 28, 2023, 09:57:24 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on October 28, 2023, 08:18:15 PM

Quote from: FXDBI on July 27, 2023, 11:01:26 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on July 27, 2023, 10:41:54 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2023, 05:57:00 PMIf you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

I am using a set of 2006 castings done up by Headquarters !.9/1.6 with 83cc chamber, his high velocity port with stock intake runner, set up for .600 lift also bronze guides. happy with it. I like those ES cams.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking.

1.900" intake valve with light clean up and cc'd

That shouldn't break the bank. 

Quote from: Adam76 on October 29, 2023, 03:58:36 PMI am using a set of 2006 castings

they were/are a pretty good head to start with, I did a few mild builds using them with just a light clean and being cc'd   

The description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AM..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Quote from: Adam76 on October 30, 2023, 10:37:33 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AM..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 03:17:23 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on October 30, 2023, 10:37:33 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AM..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

Talked him into changing exhaust to either stock head pipes and slip ons or  2-1 exhaust.... Just don't know which one yet.

So we can now set the compression anywhere from 10-1 to 11-1.
 

Quote from: Adam76 on October 30, 2023, 04:14:21 PM

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 03:17:23 PM

Quote from: Adam76 on October 30, 2023, 10:37:33 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AM..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

Talked him into changing exhaust to either stock head pipes and slip ons or  2-1 exhaust.... Just don't know which one yet.

So we can now set the compression anywhere from 10-1 to 11-1.
 

Lol... now the dilemma of 2-1 pipes for a softail...!

107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AMThe description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

Boy, you're all over the place here. I don't even know where to start. Forget this silly 4° advance gear for starters. Its a just a fix for running the wrong cam at the wrong compression in the first place. And a poor one at that.
Then there's the 570s. Certainly nothing wrong the 570s run at the right compression.
4° advance gear with the 575? Seriously? Why in hell would you do that?
No performance from the SE 204? Wow!

As for exhaust, if its a 2in1 you want that's fine. Choose the right one.
This is a 107 in an 06 softail with stock head pipes and slip ons. Nice hp AND torque. Not many that put out nice square numbers over 120/120.

Quote from: rigidthumper on October 31, 2023, 06:35:33 AM107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

Yes, sounds like a good combo.

What ccp / dynamic compression would be the highest we could go with that set up??

Thanks

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 31, 2023, 07:27:23 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 30, 2023, 09:05:47 AMThe description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

As for exhaust, if its a 2in1 you want that's fine. Choose the right one.
This is a 107 in an 06 softail with stock head pipes and slip ons. Nice hp AND torque.

We've looked into slip ons. RUSH slip ons are too loud.

Looking at Kerker supermeg or supertrapp supermeg 2-1... might as well get it right the first time