HarleyTechTalk

I like that trace on post 148, over 110 lbs-ft from 2200 to 5100.

That would be one fun scooter.

What pipe was that?

Quote from: K4FXD on May 02, 2017, 03:18:25 PM
I like that trace on post 148, over 110 lbs-ft from 2200 to 5100.

That would be one fun scooter.

What pipe was that?

That is with the D&D Billet Cat 2>1.

Outstanding thread Durawood Thanks

That Billet Cat looks good with that cam.  It wasn't very impressive on a stock bike.

Quote from: Durwood on May 02, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
As I thought, we picked up on the left and lost a couple on the right. I am in the process of swapping pipes right now, took a break for a sandwich. Lol.
[attach=0]

Nice work
Could we see runfile 10 from post 105 on the graph with runfile 21 from post 148?
Did you get a CCP for the 460 cams?
Without giving the cam specs could you give us an indication of the difference between the 450 and 460?
Is it .010 more lift? how many more degs. duration or degrees difference in lobe CL or LSA

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 03, 2017, 07:18:50 PM

Quote from: Durwood on May 02, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
As I thought, we picked up on the left and lost a couple on the right. I am in the process of swapping pipes right now, took a break for a sandwich. Lol.
[attach=0]

Nice work
Could we see runfile 10 from post 105 on the graph with runfile 21 from post 148?
Did you get a CCP for the 460 cams?
Without giving the cam specs could you give us an indication of the difference between the 450 and 460?
Is it .010 more lift? how many more degs. duration or degrees difference in lobe CL or LSA

I will get those runfile's laid over for you soon, I haven't checked ccp yet, my remote starter switch died and I have a new one on the way. No more junk parts store stuff.

I can't get into details on the cam specs, as I gave my word, but besides the .010 more lift, the 460 is a tad shorter than the 450 everywhere.

Here's what it did with the de-catted head pipe and 2" baffles installed in my stock mufflers by Fullsac Performance.
[attach=0]

Thanks for the post and I totally understand on the cam specs, no disclosure is an important part of RnD, it's great you can share what you do. I had pretty much figured on the cams but wanted to confirm my instincts.
look forward the the rest when you get the chance.

Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]

That's a heck of a torque curve, or should I say torque line 

Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine. 

Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.

It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far. 

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine. 

Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.

It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.

There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.

Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.

What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.

So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.

ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.

Thanks for the support.

Daren

Quote from: Durwood on May 04, 2017, 05:09:44 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine. 

Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.

It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.

There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.

Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.

What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.

So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.

ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.

Thanks for the support.

Daren

I agree with your thoughts on the best stage two possible. I think even with a good exhaust the limiting factor will be the static compression that EPA engines have come with for the last 30 years. With stock compression you reach the point where you have to choose between more early torque or more hp regardless of the cylinder head flow.

On the subject of exhaust systems, do they have M-8 E mufflers so that tuning them is an option during cam testing?

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 06:58:32 PM

Quote from: Durwood on May 04, 2017, 05:09:44 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine. 

Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.

It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.

There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.

Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.

What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.

So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.

ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.

Thanks for the support.

Daren

I agree with your thoughts on the best stage two possible. I think even with a good exhaust the limiting factor will be the static compression that EPA engines have come with for the last 30 years. With stock compression you reach the point where you have to choose between more early torque or more hp regardless of the cylinder head flow.

On the subject of exhaust systems, do they have M-8 E mufflers so that tuning them is an option during cam testing?

Super Trapp has disc mufflers for the M8, and that would be an option for maximization, but what I would like to see is a production, non-disc muffler that has the balance of sound and performance without the additional steps during the tuning process.

Someone will do it, just a matter of time.

 

Cycle solutions inc. have recently tested the Tman PS200 M8 cam. TR's first level bolt in cam. The results Can be seen on facebook . It's impressive considering it's straight in to a 107.
Just sayin.

I don't have facebook, anyone have a link to the graph page?

Got thanks
https://www.facebook.com/100157792180/photos/a.10150110795352181.281640.100157792180/10154344684022181/?type=3&theater

Interesting comparison on the M8-200PS vs. the stock cam.
Per graph details, was the +18/+29 run performed in a different gear vs. the stock cam run?

Looking at the gear ratio it sure looks like the old 5th gear 6th gear switch.

Also no mention if any changes to the air cleaner or exhaust system.

Quote
Looking at the gear ratio it sure looks like the old 5th gear 6th gear switch.

Yep. Well, horsepower does sell parts.
May be an honest oversight.

Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on. 

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 14, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on.

Agreed.
Honest reporting and comparative data.

Referencing this particular M8-200PS test, I would have thought that with the experience of the two parties involved, they would have questioned and verified the percentage size of the FB-posted gain considering the level/parts/work involved??

Page one of this thread shows what a 107 M8 can do in Stage 1 configuration.

Quote from: Herko on May 14, 2017, 07:57:37 AM
Interesting comparison on the M8-200PS vs. the stock cam.
Per graph details, was the +18/+29 run performed in a different gear vs. the stock cam run?

Also, was the exhaust & intake changed between runs, or is this a true cam only change, with stock intake, header pipe and mufflers?

Quote from: Herko on May 14, 2017, 08:59:36 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 14, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on.

Agreed.
Honest reporting and comparative data.

Referencing this particular M8-200PS test, I would have thought that with the experience of the two parties involved, they would have questioned and verified the percentage size of the FB-posted gain considering the level/parts/work involved??

Page one of this thread shows what a 107 M8 can do in Stage 1 configuration.

I would have thought they would have re run the base line on that day as well The run files are like 8 months apart. , and I agree it was run in two different gears as well

Mr Durwood, based on your extensive testing, what was your cam of choice for the M8 Stage 2.? And again, were the CR cams bolt in ( as in' stock pushrods')?.
Thanks for the good work.

Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 27, 2017, 06:54:55 AM
Mr Durwood, based on your extensive testing, what was your cam of choice for the M8 Stage 2.? And again, were the CR cams bolt in ( as in' stock pushrods')?.
Thanks for the good work.

For a stage 2, I like the CR460 the best and yes, these are bolt in cams with stock base circle so stock push rod's should work, no problem.

I used adjustable ones to speed up the testing process.