Cheers.
I have been experiencing rather noisy and clunky gear change since I bought this FLSTC this early this spring.
Gear change is very noisy and clunky when the bike is cold and it is about the same even when it is warm.
Standing still putting in 1st the 'bang' is very loud and it is quite loud when I change to 2nd and 3rd. 4th and upwards it calms down a bit.
It seems to change better if I do not pull the clutch lever in completely, perhaps only halfway, but even then it varies from time to time.
Sometimes it takes considerable effort to change from 1st to 2nd gear, 2nd to 3rd usually not so much.
Bike only has 8000 km (5k miles) on the clock. Primary fluid is Formula + and it has been changed last winter. I put Redline Shockproof Heavy in transmission in May (was Formula +) but that did not have any effect.
At the clutch lever I have perhaps couple of millimeters play.
Should I check the actual clutch adjustment too or is this perhaps the case of "they all do that"?
Is your clutch hydraulically actuated or is it cable operated? If your system is cable operated it is of utmost importance that you adjust your clutch very meticulously, even the cable slackness requires proper adjustment. Consult the MoCo service manual for the correct steps. Should your bike have a hydraulic clutch system no adjustment should be necessary however changing to another primary fluid mght help, I've been using type III ATF for years with no adverse effects, shifting and finding neutral works like a charm.
Armin.
Hallo Armin.
My clutch is cable operated. I'll make a proper adjustment and see if that corrects this problem.
Mr. Finn,
My money is also on cable adjustment. For starters, follow the procedure in the service manual. (Clutch adjustment used to be in the owner's manual, but no longer). But don't be afraid to experiment a little once you've tried the base settings.
The more you turn the adjusting screw out, the closer to the grip is the point at which the clutch engages. It's the same at the handlebar end; the more space between the ferrule and the clutch lever mounting bracket, the earlier the clutch will engage.
It has been my experience on two bikes (one RK and one softail) that the earlier the engagement, the louder the clunk going into first gear and the more difficult finding neutral can be.
Good luck.
I agree on the clutch adjustment. Also what helps with the "clunk" into first gear, in cold climates is to blip the throttle slightly with clutch lever pulled in, just before jamming into gear. I find that this helps in the spring & fall & when the bike hasn't been used a bit, theory is it separates the discs a bit.
While you are working on the clutch adjustment, double check the fluid level - it should only be touching the bottom of the clutch plate(?). Too high causes clutch drag and hard shifting although I don't recall noise being an issue wiht too much fluid.
QuoteAt the clutch lever I have perhaps couple of millimeters play.
far too much
QuoteShould I check the actual clutch adjustment too or is this perhaps the case of "they all do that"?
Yes, check/adjust that first. Do not try to adjust your clutch with just the cable adjuster. The clutch itself should be adjusted with total slack in the cable. What you do with this adjustment dictates how far to the left the pushrod/pressure plate will move with the clutch fully actuated. The more you turn the adjusting screw back out after contact is made the less the pressure plate will separate the clutch stack and the more chance you will have for shifting difficulty, difficulty finding neutral and possibly creep when stopped in gear. The clutch will also engage sooner. The opposite adjustment results in the more clutch separation but too much introduces the possibility of the clutch never applying maximum spring pressure resulting in "riding," or constant slipping. The lever will also release farther out. You need a little free play at this adjustment screw to prevent constant riding and that is why the books say to run the adjuster in till contact is made than back it out a certain amount. Once you get this adjustment done to your satisfaction the cable adjustment is pretty much just to make sure the ramp is not constantly engaging the push rod, which would again cause riding or slipping. Again a little free play at the lever end prevents this from happening. Good luck with your adjustment but also remember you are dealing with a wet clutch that transfers some motion from fluid drive effects even if properly adjusted with full plate separation and you are dealing with a non-synchronized transmission that allows parts to engage when rotating at different speeds. This is fundamentally why they clunk when cars with manual transmissions do not.
Thanks for replies and advices. :beer:
I adjusted clutch today with 3/4 turn open on center bolt and 1.6 mm (1/16") on lever. I see no change in clutch behaviour or gear change noise. It is just LOUD. Even compared to my Evo. And it still seems to shift better if I don't pull clutch in completely. Weird.
I will re-adjust with 1/2 turn open tomorrow and see if that has any effect.
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Finn are you sure the ramps are in the home position when you start the adjustment ?
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 05:41:00 PM
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Had my 2006 dyna since new , use H-D Formula+ never needed no additives with it, clutch works great, no clunk, or problem finding 1st, even has the original compensator going strong. No need to re-invent the wheel just follow the owners manual. Bob
Quote from: FSG on July 18, 2020, 06:08:51 PM
Finn are you sure the ramps are in the home position when you start the adjustment ?
I had clutch cable adjustment completely loosened with lever against grip when I made the adjustment. :scratch: Didn't even remember to check fluid level. :embarrassed:
Bike goes in for cam change in couple of weeks. I will let them check what can be checked.
Quote from: FXDBI on July 18, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 05:41:00 PM
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Had my 2006 dyna since new , use H-D Formula+ never needed no additives with it, clutch works great, no clunk, or problem finding 1st, even has the original compensator going strong. No need to re-invent the wheel just follow the owners manual. Bob
Do you think just maybe folks that have issues started by following the owner's manual?
Quote from: Finn on July 18, 2020, 10:59:43 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 18, 2020, 06:08:51 PM
Finn are you sure the ramps are in the home position when you start the adjustment ?
I had clutch cable adjustment completely loosened with lever against grip when I made the adjustment. :scratch: Didn't even remember to check fluid level. :embarrassed:
Bike goes in for cam change in couple of weeks. I will let them check what can be checked.
It's possible that with complete freeplay in the cable and pulling the lever to the grip that the balls have come out of the ramp assembly. I had this happen once with this method. I had to remove the transmission end cover to re-seat the balls. Now, when I adjust I put a bunch of freeplay into the cable->don't touch the lever->do your adjustment at the clutch->reduce your freeplay before pulling in the lever and setting your clearance at the perch.
When I adjust my clutch I back off the jam nut so that it won't interfere and then I run in the adjuster screw several times while watching the clutch pack separate. The repeated tightening and loosening of the adjuster screw will give you a good indication of when you've reached zero clearance and can adjust 1/2-3/4 turn out.
As others have said, fluid volume can have a significant impact on the clutches ability to separate so it's definitely worth checking.
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 11:25:09 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on July 18, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 05:41:00 PM
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Had my 2006 dyna since new , use H-D Formula+ never needed no additives with it, clutch works great, no clunk, or problem finding 1st, even has the original compensator going strong. No need to re-invent the wheel just follow the owners manual. Bob
Do you think just maybe folks that have issues started by following the owner's manual?
Well then they haven't followed the manual properly its very straight forward with a cable operated clutch. But it seems everyone wants to add there own little twist to it with different oils, additives and a plethora of other things they read on the internet. Tounge out the left side has u tighten the bolts. I think a good many probilly should leave the toolbox locked and let a professional do it or teach them how. Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on July 19, 2020, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 11:25:09 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on July 18, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 05:41:00 PM
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Had my 2006 dyna since new , use H-D Formula+ never needed no additives with it, clutch works great, no clunk, or problem finding 1st, even has the original compensator going strong. No need to re-invent the wheel just follow the owners manual. Bob
Do you think just maybe folks that have issues started by following the owner's manual?
Well then they haven't followed the manual properly its very straight forward with a cable operated clutch. But it seems everyone wants to add there own little twist to it with different oils, additives and a plethora of other things they read on the internet. Tounge out the left side has u tighten the bolts. I think a good many probilly should leave the toolbox locked and let a professional do it or teach them how. Bob
I understand what you're saying but there are people, I was one of them, that follow the manual to the letter & still have issues. At that point the two paths are to live with it or try to find a cure. It is not always pilot error.
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 19, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on July 19, 2020, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 11:25:09 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on July 18, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 18, 2020, 05:41:00 PM
4 oz. of Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement (MAKE SURE YOU GET THIS TYPE, THERE ARE OTHERS) mixed with Mobil 1 syn ATF in the primary. The concoction should just touch the bottom of the clutch basket.
Really.
Had my 2006 dyna since new , use H-D Formula+ never needed no additives with it, clutch works great, no clunk, or problem finding 1st, even has the original compensator going strong. No need to re-invent the wheel just follow the owners manual. Bob
Do you think just maybe folks that have issues started by following the owner's manual?
Well then they haven't followed the manual properly its very straight forward with a cable operated clutch. But it seems everyone wants to add there own little twist to it with different oils, additives and a plethora of other things they read on the internet. Tounge out the left side has u tighten the bolts. I think a good many probilly should leave the toolbox locked and let a professional do it or teach them how. Bob
I understand what you're saying but there are people, I was one of them, that follow the manual to the letter & still have issues. At that point the two paths are to live with it or try to find a cure. It is not always pilot error.
I agree with RRP; the owner's/service manual is always the starting point, but different bikes can have different idiosyncrasies. Usually the SM method works, but I have a Road King where the SM method won't get it even close.
After having a phone discussion with my mechanic there is a suspicion that the clutch plates are sticking together.
As has been suggested above, changing to other primary fluid could help.
How sensitive (if at all) is the compensator for different fluids?
I'm under impression that Formula+ is what it has been designed for (or something) but would I experience premature compensator wear if I went with for example Redline or Belray primary fluid?
Would the different primary fluid loosen the clutch plates by itself or would clutch need to be taken apart and cleaned first?
Finn, glazed fibers can contribute by increasing the surface tension especially when oil contamination is present. I would consider pulling the discs, cleaning and giving them all (including steels) a light de-glazing rub on some 220 or 320 grit paper. If done on a flat and true surface you will also detect any warpage if present. Check the slots in the basket and the hub spline for unusual wear and snags that can be cleaned up with a fine file before you put it back together. Wipe the discs down liberally with some ATF before assembly and be diligent about not filling above the basket slots with your lube of choice. I think you'll be pleased.
To note, I'm not saying the following is true and not suggesting an oil conversation. Rather, only reporting something. I'm in the process of rebuilding my clutch. I bought a set of Barnett Kevlar clutch plates. In the box came some instructions. Under the column "What Oil to Use in My Motorcycle Clutch" is says:
"Harley Davidson Note: We have had numerous reports of Formula Plus oil causing clutch plate "sticking" in cold starts, especially in cold weather zones."
I've decided to give the AmsOil Primary oil a lash, for the first time. I've always used Formula+. However, if my clutch performance improves this change of oil will result in nothing to report because I'm replacing all of my clutch parts (i.e., hub, basket, friction plates, pressure plate).
Quote from: Finn on July 21, 2020, 06:49:56 AM
After having a phone discussion with my mechanic there is a suspicion that the clutch plates are sticking together.
As has been suggested above, changing to other primary fluid could help.
How sensitive (if at all) is the compensator for different fluids?
I'm under impression that Formula+ is what it has been designed for (or something) but would I experience premature compensator wear if I went with for example Redline or Belray primary fluid?
Would the different primary fluid loosen the clutch plates by itself or would clutch need to be taken apart and cleaned first?
My comp after thousands of miles on the Mobil 1/lubegard mix looks like new. Plus the inside of the primary is amazingly clean.
I was going to wait until my dealer appointment coming in two weeks but the gear change noise was so irritating and annoying that I decided to change the primary fluid this morning.
I went with Belray as that is what I have in Bad Boy, too. Also re-adjusted the clutch with 1/2 turns out while in there.
Clutch is now considerably better but I only did 20 miles today. May get even better after a while, I reckon. Now it feels and sounds 'normal' by Harley standards.
Thanks for all comments and advices. :beer:
Well, after last post the clutch did work OK for a while but now - especially when weather has gotten warmer - it seems worse.
I'm having trouble in shifting up or down and gear change is very clunky/noisy. Typically the clutch works a bit better if I don't pull the lever in all the way against handle bar but maybe just a half an inch or so.
Before we pull the plates and sand or replace them should I test with different adjustment on clutch center bolt? I have half a turn there now.
Primary fluid is Belray and level is correct.
Finn? My 07 HD SM blows past the detail on the bikes static position when adding fluids - especially to the primary. I did find it in another section eventually and learned it has to be upright for the primary fluid check. Yours?
Also a known good HD Factory-trained Tech in my area warned against heavy fluids in the primary. According to him, they'll take your Stator out from heat. Not sure of this as I never use anything but Redline Primary Fluid but thought I'd toss it into the ring for discussion.
Yes, checking bike upright on mine as well.
Don't know whether it is a fluid type thing but I'll check if the Redline is available over here just in case.
I wouldn't worry too much about the viscosity effecting the stator. HD recommends their 80w-140 Heavy Synthetic Gear Oil for primary and transmission on big twin bikes.
Heavy Synthetic Gear Oil (https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/Heavy-Synthetic-Gear-Oil/p/62600091)
(https://www.harley-davidson.com/content/dam/h-d/images/product-images/parts/batch-3/62600091/62600091_TT.tif?impolicy=myresize&rw=2360)
I had a Road King once that I couldn't get the clutch to stop dragging, it was very hard to find neutral and bike would creep while sitting in gear. I found this:
https://youtube.com/shorts/Pn1pOW_iOUc?feature=share
I replaced the clutch hub
Maybe something to check if you decide to take it apart
Quote from: Finn on June 25, 2022, 01:00:08 PMYes, checking bike upright on mine as well.
Don't know whether it is a fluid type thing but I'll check if the Redline is available over here just in case.
Finn,
I have a 17 FLSTC and this post is from the FWIW dept. I have the SM for my bike and according to it the capacity for the primary is 34 oz. wet and 38 oz. dry. The owners manual calls for 32 oz. When I change my fluid 28 oz. brings it up to the bottom of the clutch basket which is what the owners manual says should be the starting point, adding more as/if needed. I can't imagine trying to fill it to even 34 oz. let alone 38. Your issues sound like what happens when the primary is overfilled. I use Redline primary fluid exclusively. Hope this helps.
Quote from: Tacocaster on June 25, 2022, 12:25:14 PMFinn? My 07 HD SM blows past the detail on the bikes static position when adding fluids - especially to the primary. I did find it in another section eventually and learned it has to be upright for the primary fluid check. Yours?
Also a known good HD Factory-trained Tech in my area warned against heavy fluids in the primary. According to him, they'll take your Stator out from heat. Not sure of this as I never use anything but Redline Primary Fluid but thought I'd toss it into the ring for discussion.
Type F ATF. Specifically B&M Trickshift. Recommended by most clutch manufacturers. Smooth as butter. 'Nuff said.
Btw, one of them warns against using HD's F+.
Wonder if that's covered in the manual 🤔
Problem is people think thicker oil will save their POS compensators. Never considering the issue is splash lube. Or lack of it. Hence the paddle one compensator manufacturer instructs you to GLUE ON!
Now maybe, just maybe, THINNER is the answer. Better splash lube? It sure is the ticket for better clutch operation for sure. And that's my main objective.
Finn I use BelRay Primary Oil some of them others will slip under a hard acceleration
Right.
I bought this bike three years ago and back then it had only around 5000 km on the clock. It had done very little every year and I recall I thought back then that the clutch was not working as it should.
It had Formula + in then after fresh service by the dealer but I don't know if they had adjusted the clutch itself.
After a while I put Belray in and IIRC the clutch was adjusted. I like to remember that this change made the clutch work better.
As I mentioned in the opening post clutch operation became worse and last week it started to be unbearable.
Found Redline V-Twin primary oil locally with -50% discount so naturally I bought all four quarts they had left. After fluid change and clutch adjustment the operation is slightly better but still 'hit and miss' ie. one time gear change is smooth as butter and next time with a huge "clunk".
I'm going to give the bike some time now with Redline but I'm suspecting that long standing periods during early years may have affected the clutch plates.
Is this even possible?
You sure wouldn't catch me running 80W140 gear lube in the primary cuz HD says so. It's not smooth shifting/clutch operation they have in mind recommending that.
They recommend the crankcase breathers be routed to the intake too. Yet common sense says otherwise.
If you're looking for smooth shifting/clutch operation, listen to the clutch manufacturers.
I get no clunk ever. Not the slightest and neutral is easy.
Quote from: 60Gunner on July 06, 2022, 07:05:44 AMYou sure wouldn't catch me running 80W140 gear lube in the primary cuz HD says so. It's not smooth shifting/clutch operation they have in mind recommending that.
They recommend the crankcase breathers be routed to the intake too. Yet common sense says otherwise.
If you're looking for smooth shifting/clutch operation, listen to the clutch manufacturers.
I get no clunk ever. Not the slightest and neutral is easy.
If you are suggesting that Harley is responsible for the breather design you may want to reconsider. The crankcase breather system is dictated by the EPA for environmental reasons. "ALL" vehicle manufacturers MUST follow those demands.