A quick cam change gone wrong. A friend tried drilling to tap the bolt out, bit walked, and now trying to recover the situation.
Is there a jig available to drill and tap these out? Any other suggestions or solutions? Even with it hot, he was not able to extract the bit of bolt that is stuck in there.
Is a timesert a possibility?
Panic has set in of course
Trying to add a pic, will have it up shortly
6097.jpg
I use a Timesert. Get it the Best you can. Get S&S Tappet cuffs. Align it and use a Dremmel to enlarge the hole. Maintain 0.002" between Cuff and Tappet. Next time a good idea is to use a heat gun on the bolt for about five minutes prior to extraction.
Quote from: Pirsch Fire Wagon on April 16, 2022, 10:52:31 AMNext time a good idea is to use a heat gun on the bolt for about five minutes prior to extraction.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,107782.msg1282238.html#msg1282238 (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,107782.msg1282238.html#msg1282238)
you know I'd bee looking at cutting those cuffs off before trying to remove the bolt,
then heat the area to remove the bolt
I may actually go and buy 1 or 2 just to see how hard one would bee to cut with a fine tooth saw
(https://i.imgur.com/kQOBYK5.jpg)
I wasn't here when it happened, I know all about the proper procedures that should have been followed originally, and when it was being drilled for repair, but he was going ho and is now in recovery mode. (Not the first time he has broken stuff, twice, before waiting for help)
Good to know a time sert can be done. We are working on making a jig to drill it out, then figure out a repair. Thinking with jig we can still drill and extract the bolt, then see if enough thread is left to bite, or JB Weld and re-tap. If not, time sert.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 16, 2022, 11:02:09 AMthen see if enough thread is left to bite, or JB Weld and re-tap.
not going to need much
Quote from: FSG on April 16, 2022, 11:04:35 AMQuote from: Hossamania on April 16, 2022, 11:02:09 AMthen see if enough thread is left to bite, or JB Weld and re-tap.
not going to need much
Nope. Wish us luck, I'll update in a few hours, hunting down material and tools now.
Hoss, consider left hand drill bits. Small first centred and then larger. Go slow rpm and even pressure.
Better plug those oil passages with grease before drilling and tapping, etc. But it looks like that's too late as well.
Can't you bottom loud the lifters in the M8? That would preclude the removal of the cuffs.
He has left hand bits, extractors, etc. Currently making a jig out of aluminum block to drill the bolt.
Total garage build machining action going on right now.
Bolt broke because cuffs are being replaced by S&S billet cuffs. He should have started with small bit and stepped up, but he has no patience, gets excited and wants it done. Saving money doing it himself. Now a friend and I are trying to save him the cost of taking it in.
He was going to wait for us, but couldn't, had to start without us.
Success! Garage built jig with scrap aluminum block, cardboard template, hand punched drill marks, actually used a drill press rather than just a hand drill (c'mon, we're not complete neanderthals). Slowly drilled the bolt, picked out the swarf, cleaned with a thread chase (no tap), plenty of thread to grab the new bolt. All good.
Now, the cam install.
:up: Nice job Hoss. Great use of hoarded remains. I like that. You ain't just another pretty face.
I can see a tool like this getting a little use so here's your next challenge. Before you forget how you made it, take few more pics or diagrams with instructions on how to make said tool. Maybe include a flip over option with another hole for the smaller pilot drill. Then post that baby in the homemade tool section.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 16, 2022, 02:52:06 PMSuccess! Garage built jig with scrap aluminum block, cardboard template, hand punched drill marks, actually used a drill press rather than just a hand drill (c'mon, we're not complete neanderthals). Slowly drilled the bolt, picked out the swarf, cleaned with a thread chase (no tap), plenty of thread to grab the new bolt. All good.
Now, the cam install.
Good work Hoss & if you want to share your jig specs im in
This is the template we made to drill the block, not exactly precision. One of the bolt holes didn't even line up (notice only 3 with bolts in them in the previous pictures), I have no mics or calipers, so no proper measurements, it would be sketchy tape measure numbers, no help to anybody here. We got lucky. I'll take it.
6108.jpg
The horror of those darn lifter cuff bolts! I sweat and shake every time I take one out and [now] spend an excessive amount of time with the heat gun on them. I got bit once and was lucky enough to drill the easy out hole dead nuts on. Even so, I had to torch heat it, move the easy out a half turn, torch again, move easy out a half turn...and keep doing that until I finally got the broken bolt out. Nerve racking!
JIMS has a program where you can submit tools for consideration for them to manufacture. I recommend you sending in your design and maybe there will be a JIMS tool in the future that we can keep in the garage for when the nightmare happens.
Hadn't thought about submitting the idea, but that would be easier than us manufacturing them and selling them, which we had talked about then quickly dismissed.
My contribution here was not so much the actual specs, but the concept that it can be done.
New to the M8 stuff. So these cuffs took the place of the anti-rotation pin on the TC's?
Zach
Quote from: biggzed on April 18, 2022, 01:55:17 PMNew to the M8 stuff. So these cuffs took the place of the anti-rotation pin on the TC's?
Zach
Correct.
And the gorilla strength lockpatch has caused more than a few of those bolts to break while being removed. Heat helps a bunch, as does patience, when removing them
Quote from: rigidthumper on April 18, 2022, 07:01:37 PMAnd the gorilla strength lockpatch has caused more than a few of those bolts to break while being removed. Heat helps a bunch, as does patience, when removing them
If only my friend had read this before breaking his off and adding 4 hours to a cam swap.
Quote from: rigidthumper on April 18, 2022, 07:01:37 PMAnd the gorilla strength lockpatch has caused more than a few of those bolts to break while being removed. Heat helps a bunch, as does patience, when removing them
Funny I've read on here more than once that those lock patches don't do anything. :smiled:
On the subject of the lifter cuff bolts...
I'm sort of asking a question, or maybe comments about a technique I use when taking them out. As mentioned, I use a heat gun and I don't just hit it for a minute or two. I lay the heat on for a while and switch between high and low to keep the heat reasonable and not turn the plastic cuff into a blob. I really like to warm up the base metal before using a socket for the first time.
Now, inviting comments...
When I put a socket on the bolt I do not use a back and forth motion as the bolt is coming out. I only go counterclockwise. My theory is that going back and forth (which is a technique for removing rusty bolts) "works" the grade 5 bolt too much and can increase the chances that the bolt breaks. So, I just put only enough pressure on the wrench to keep the bolt moving out.
Comments? Arguments? Input to educate me?
BTW, I use this same technique when removing the oil line manifold bolts.
Quote from: wfolarry on April 19, 2022, 05:50:50 AMQuote from: rigidthumper on April 18, 2022, 07:01:37 PMAnd the gorilla strength lockpatch has caused more than a few of those bolts to break while being removed. Heat helps a bunch, as does patience, when removing them
Funny I've read on here more than once that those lock patches don't do anything. :smiled:
Are they for sure pre applied patches? Doing a search of pre applied Loctite products show a max temp of 392 deg F. Maybe I missed some that are rated to higher temps. All I know is the pre applied yellow stuff that comes on S&S backing plate screws turns to powder upon installation.
The pin in the Twin Cam is a better idea. You can set the clearance as you please, and the pin just lifts out.
Quote from: Deye76 on April 19, 2022, 04:18:52 PMQuote from: wfolarry on April 19, 2022, 05:50:50 AMQuote from: rigidthumper on April 18, 2022, 07:01:37 PMAnd the gorilla strength lockpatch has caused more than a few of those bolts to break while being removed. Heat helps a bunch, as does patience, when removing them
Funny I've read on here more than once that those lock patches don't do anything. :smiled:
Are they for sure pre applied patches? Doing a search of pre applied Loctite products show a max temp of 392 deg F. Maybe I missed some that are rated to higher temps. All I know is the pre applied yellow stuff that comes on S&S backing plate screws turns to powder upon installation.
My thoughts about the dry patch is the effect on friction when torqueing. Now if you clean and reuse the fastener or upgrade it to grade 8 so it won't break, the torque with a wet drop of Loctite will be less?
Quote from: Ohio HD on April 19, 2022, 04:58:48 PMThe pin in the Twin Cam is a better idea. You can set the clearance as you please, and the pin just lifts out.
:agree: There must have been a higher cost to machine the nest for the pin plus the bar stock than the grade 5 fastener and a piece of die cast plastic. As we have seen, most of these changes are usually based on cost. This one IMO has built in obsolescence for future repairs in the door.
Quote:agree: There must have been a higher cost to machine the nest for the pin plus the bar stock than the grade 5 fastener and a piece of die cast plastic. As we have seen, most of these changes are usually based on cost. This one IMO has built in obsolescence for future repairs in the door.
while S&S have come out with their cuff I'm surprised no one else has done anything,
I'm sure there could bee a drop in cuff that has a locating pin which would go in the bolt hole and the cuff held down by the lifter cover
Cheap & functional are the hallmark of bean counters everywhere. I think that that failures of the plastic are uncommon, and it's easy enough to drop the lifters out the bottom if the cuffs are intact. Broken bolts (upon removal) seem to be more of an issue than actual broken cuffs.
"Now if you clean and reuse the fastener or upgrade it to grade 8 so it won't break, the torque with a wet drop of Loctite will be less?"
Who said anything about torque? I didn't. So you're saying the problem with bolts breaking is torque? :scratch: I wonder if the patch turns to powder and the threads gall.
Quote from: Deye76 on April 20, 2022, 07:44:57 AM"Now if you clean and reuse the fastener or upgrade it to grade 8 so it won't break, the torque with a wet drop of Loctite will be less?"
Who said anything about torque? I didn't. So you're saying the problem with bolts breaking is torque? :scratch:
I think he is referring to the torque value needed being less with a wet lock as opposed to the dry lock, much like values change between a drop of oil under the bolt head as opposed to a dry bolt head. Not that the torque itself is breaking the bolt.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 20, 2022, 07:51:36 AMQuote from: Deye76 on April 20, 2022, 07:44:57 AM"Now if you clean and reuse the fastener or upgrade it to grade 8 so it won't break, the torque with a wet drop of Loctite will be less?"
Who said anything about torque? I didn't. So you're saying the problem with bolts breaking is torque? :scratch:
I think he is referring to the torque value needed being less with a wet lock as opposed to the dry lock, much like values change between a drop of oil under the bolt head as opposed to a dry bolt head. Not that the torque itself is breaking the bolt.
Yes Hoss, that's most of it. Deye, I also didn't say you did. :nix: I will say clearly that I personally think the torque required to remove the fastener is more than the grade 5 quality can withstand. (the reason is under discussion) The existence of a problem is evident by the number of fractures reported here by folks in the business that do this regularly and encounter it almost daily.
The other part is, because it does have to go back together, what will it take to resolve this common issue ? What will correct the weakness so it doesn't reoccur? The dry lock patch came into the conversation as possibly the reason some of this is happening. Should we blindly reinstall another identical fastener? When the fastener is initially installed (or reinstalled) does the dry lock patch compromise the fastener by the way it increases the radial torque required to turn a fastener that is not rigid enough to be up to the task?
It seems obvious (to me at least) that the grade 5 fastener is not up to the task at least when it comes time to remove it. If it was, there wouldn't be all of these fractures. On the other hand, with the demonstrated strength of the OEM lock patch, would an OEM grade 8 fastener not break but possibly pull or otherwise gall or damage the threads in the aluminum base beyond reuse simply because the obvious strength of the dry patch forces the failure to the next weak link? Is the patch over the strength required? The lifter cover as FSG said is holding the assembly in place anyway. After all, the fastener (and cuff) is functionally just a positioning device. IMO there is an OEM engineering failure here and I expect there will be some sort of remedial change to address it in the future.
I haven't seen any tools available to combat this problem when it happens. There may be something out there but no one here has offered it up (yet). For now, I consider it doesn't exist. For the time being, I think the back yard garage solution that Hoss and his buddies came up with is an extraordinary resolution to removing the fastener shank when it does break and is at risk of being copied by someone for financial gain. Like that's never happened to any of our members before :crook: . (Hoss, it needs a smaller pilot hole for the starter bit. That could be on the other side when the tool is flipped over. :wink: ) IMO the aluminum block tool is at present a simple solution that anyone with access to a drill press and a gasket can make to attend to a known problem found in many thousands of already manufactured engines that will not benefit from any late to the party OEM design changes at the factory (if any).
Thanks again for sharing it here first Hoss.
Misunderstood KD, excellent explanation above. :up:
Excellent discussion guys , i just had a thought. why not just fit a high quality stud in there and just lock tight a nut to hold down the cuff ???? Max
Quote from: To The Max on April 21, 2022, 02:49:41 AMExcellent discussion guys , i just had a thought. why not just fit a high quality stud in there and just lock tight a nut to hold down the cuff ???? Max
Maybe just using a grade 8 bolt (like the S&S lifter cuffs do) of the exact same size might be easier.
Quote from: les on April 19, 2022, 10:01:43 AMOn the subject of the lifter cuff bolts...
When I put a socket on the bolt I do not use a back and forth motion as the bolt is coming out. I only go counterclockwise.
I agree with this method. I have had to remove a lot of very tight fasteners on jet engines, when I start turning them I keep going, no steps backwards.
It either comes out or breaks.
Quote from: Dan89flstc on April 26, 2022, 08:18:37 PMQuote from: les on April 19, 2022, 10:01:43 AMOn the subject of the lifter cuff bolts...
When I put a socket on the bolt I do not use a back and forth motion as the bolt is coming out. I only go counterclockwise.
I agree with this method. I have had to remove a lot of very tight fasteners on jet engines, when I start turning them I keep going, no steps backwards.
It either comes out or breaks.
Thanks for the comment and your experience. I'll keep doing it the way I'm doing it. It's been successful so far.
Maybe something at Harley changed but the last two M8's I have worked on the lifter cuff bolts came out easily .... I was sweating the thought of them breaking but was surprised that they weren't hard at all to remove both were 19's one feb build date the other I don't know.
Quote from: cbumdumb on April 30, 2022, 08:26:11 AMMaybe something at Harley changed but the last two M8's I have worked on the lifter cuff bolts came out easily .... I was sweating the thought of them breaking but was surprised that they weren't hard at all to remove both were 19's one feb build date the other I don't know.
My 2019 CVO, purchased in Dec 18 lifter cuff bolts were stupid tight. We worried one would break.
2019 cvo limited
Build date in Dec 2018
Bolts were very tight but a little heat got them out ok.
Not the first time I've noticed some bolts are harder to remove than others.
Could be a result of locking compound and procedure when torquing the bolts.
The engine plant has most of the assembled parts done by robots, but there are also some human interaction with jigs etc during the assembly.
I toured the engine plant in 1984 and again in 2013 and there's been quite a change!
I do think it is a much better and more reliable product today than in the past.
JMHO
:missed:
Once you get the cuff bolt out, do whatever you want. Blue works fine. Don't have to change the bolt is you haven't tweaked on it. The issue is that the patch sticks things up. I've worked the bolt back and forth. That will loosen it up as the patch breaks down and the screw comes out.. This is different than say 18-8 stainless bolt and nut. The worst thing you can do in this situation is wiggle the nut back and forth. It will lock up.
Mike, you riding with Butch tomorrow?
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on May 07, 2022, 06:18:40 PMOnce you get the cuff bolt out, do whatever you want. Blue works fine. Don't have to change the bolt is you haven't tweaked on it. The issue is that the patch sticks things up. I've worked the bolt back and forth. That will loosen it up as the patch breaks down and the screw comes out.. This is different than say 18-8 stainless bolt and nut. The worst thing you can do in this situation is wiggle the nut back and forth. It will lock up.
Mike, you riding with Butch tomorrow?
Sorry, no.
Mother's Day and all that!
Bringing this up a few months.
I was considering replacing the cuff when doing a cam change later this season. I have been wondering if cuff replacement to the S&S is even an issue worth tackling for something like a woods 22x or an RS 468. If in fact, there is even a problem using the cuffs, or if there is even a 'failure rate' with them and aftermarket cams?
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 01, 2022, 05:35:07 PMBringing this up a few months.
I was considering replacing the cuff when doing a cam change later this season. I have been wondering if cuff replacement to the S&S is even an issue worth tackling for something like a woods 22x or an RS 468. If in fact, there is even a problem using the cuffs, or if there is even a 'failure rate' with them and aftermarket cams?
Understand your question and sorry I can't give failure rate data. However, if you've ever held a stock cuff in your hand, common sense immediately tells you "this ain't it." It also tells you that the stock cuffs could not possibly be made any cheaper (i.e. of lower quality and robustness). It's about the lowest of the low.
Maybe the synthetic cuff acts as a sound deadner??
Can't find the link, but there's a part that you can get that eliminates the cuff and eliminates the need to remove the bolt if you break it, if i broke one, that's the route i would go, much sturdier and all that jazz...i will look later...
Quote from: Oclaf on September 02, 2022, 11:43:47 AMCan't find the link, but there's a part that you can get that eliminates the cuff and eliminates the need to remove the bolt if you break it, if i broke one, that's the route i would go, much sturdier and all that jazz...i will look later...
Interesting.....
I'm from Missouri, so I'd have to see how the cuff (either HD or S&S) can be eliminated. Their purpose is to keep the tappets from rotating in their bore. And without a bolt to hold "something" in a solid fixed location and centered over the lifter bore, how do you keep the tappets from rotating?
FWIW:
I like the idea of the S&S cuffs.
The fit over the lifters is pretty tight and on the install you can notice if they are aligned properly to allow the lifters to move easily without binding.
It is easier to remove lifters to check wear on cam lobes and rollers without going into the cam chest.
I'm thinking studs and nuts on the cuffs in the future. :potstir:
The current M8 lifter guide (plastic) is virtually the same one being used in the late model GM V8s, including the Corvette.
Link to pic. (https://dbautomotiveplus.com/product/gm-lsx-block-lifter-retainer-19166182-set-of-4/)
I think the stock part is adequate for a normal production engine, and the S&S guides an upgrade.
Quote from: HogMike on September 03, 2022, 04:54:30 AMFWIW:
I like the idea of the S&S cuffs.
The fit over the lifters is pretty tight and on the install you can notice if they are aligned properly to allow the lifters to move easily without binding.
It is easier to remove lifters to check wear on cam lobes and rollers without going into the cam chest.
I'm thinking studs and nuts on the cuffs in the future. :potstir:
In my opinion, the problem is that H-D uses grade 5 bolts for the cuffs. That's why they are breaking. The S&S cuffs come with grade 8 bolts, eliminating the bolt breaking problem. This problem would have never happened if H-D would have coughed up a couple cents more and just used grade 8 like they do all over the rest of the engine.
Breaking just during removal, or during operation?
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 04, 2022, 09:04:52 AMBreaking just during removal, or during operation?
Removal
Here is an interesting bolt removal tool. Check it out at the 21m30s mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XCIqJIaZ2I
+1 on the inductive heater - very useful tool for a hundred bucks!
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Xyzzy on January 31, 2024, 01:37:55 PMHere is an interesting bolt removal tool. Check it out at the 21m30s mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XCIqJIaZ2I
I'd be looking real close at what length that #1 Screw really needs to be and either shorten it OR remove some of the starting threads ......
of course that's after successfully removing the mothers in the first place :SM:
(https://i.imgur.com/5wfWoAh.png)
This bolt should be a Grade 8, like the rest of the bike is. Wish H-D would stop using the Grade 5 bolts not just for the cuffs, but also for the oil coolant line manifolds.