Now that the M8's have been out for a while and getting sorted out, what's the latest and greatist on the oil pumps? Have they done any upgrades since 2020?
The 2020 pump seems to have abated the sumping issue, as long as the piston squirters are tight.
Thanks
Do we know when the new oil pump was used in production? Was it Job 1 2020 or was it a running change in 2019?
My 2019 was a late production and still had the old style pump.
Never had an issue with it.
Went to S&S when I built the motor just for added security!
:potstir:
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 02, 2022, 09:09:56 AMThe 2020 pump seems to have abated the sumping issue, as long as the piston squirters are tight.
So, you've seen 2020 or later piston jets come loose?
2018flhtx no problems with sumping,yet..
To answer OPs question. See Link below. Think it was designed for bagger race series. Even with 20% discount its pricey.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/screamin-eagle-pro-high-volume-oil-pump-cam-support-plate-kit/p/62400260
Quote from: VernDiesel on January 21, 2023, 05:31:41 AMTo answer OPs question. See Link below. Think it was designed for bagger race series. Even with 20% discount its pricey.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/screamin-eagle-pro-high-volume-oil-pump-cam-support-plate-kit/p/62400260
Should be fitted from Factory as standard.
Quote from: JSD on January 21, 2023, 09:18:50 PMShould be fitted from Factory as standard.
The OEM parts numbers for the oil pump and cam plate for a 2020 107" and the SE part numbers are different.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 21, 2023, 09:37:50 PMQuote from: JSD on January 21, 2023, 09:18:50 PMShould be fitted from Factory as standard.
The OEM parts numbers for the oil pump and cam plate for a 2020 107" and the SE part numbers are different.
Yes. The SE should be fitted by HD is what i mean as a standard from factory.
Be interesting to compare to their latest OEM pump. Seems they have spent some R&D trying to figure out their oil issues. Doubt they came up with different volume or ratio that is really a step up or an alternative. Just to wrap in billet and put SE on it.
This is good info.
Mine is a 2019 softail.... Does anyone have a build date / month of production for that year that got the latest oil pump?
I'm pretty sure it was at some point in 2019.
Thanks
Google HD TT466, dated 8/20/2019, for info. Last few 2019 models, and all the 2020 models received the new pump.
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 24, 2023, 05:08:12 AMGoogle HD TT466, dated 8/20/2019, for info. Last few 2019 models, and all the 2020 models received the new pump.
Thanks Rigidthumper, mine has 2 different dates on the compliance plate / sticker...
One says "date of manufacture" 02/19
The other says "08/19".
Looks like I probably don't have the latest pump?
Is it worth upgrading? Is the Drag Specialties pump any good?
Thanks
Adam you are up for a pump
Quote from: JSD on January 25, 2023, 03:55:25 PMAdam you are up for a pump
Yeah, I guess the question now is which pump to get? the latest HD pump? Drag Specialties? Fueling / S&S?
Cost is always a factor, I don't have a money tree 😁
Quote from: Adam76 on January 25, 2023, 04:02:01 PMQuote from: JSD on January 25, 2023, 03:55:25 PMAdam you are up for a pump
Yeah, I guess the question now is which pump to get? the latest HD pump? Drag Specialties? Fueling / S&S?
Cost is always a factor, I don't have a money tree 😁
I'm pretty sure the M8 softails didn't have the same issues as the touring bikes.
A quote from APE:
(https://i.imgur.com/pBtcEf7.png)
Thanks for the info Speedzter, APE sure do build a lot of big inch hotrod motors. :chop:
Interesting from Ape. Also why only the touring & not Softail?
I see that Twin Power makes an "upgraded" high flow oil pump for M8.... Any thoughts on this pump? Is quite cheap considering.
The Fueling and S&S pumps are expensive and also are listed as only compatible with their own cam plate. So you have to buy the cam plate as well as the oil pump, which is just not an option for me cost wise.
What a great big waste of money , abselutly nothing wrong with the std pump and plate . don't know what the fixation is , and what no one has had trouble with aftermarket pumps. Max
Stateside the factory 2020 pump seems to be mostly adequate, and at $160 retail, not a horrible cost.
Quote from: To The Max on January 26, 2023, 03:13:47 AMWhat a great big waste of money , abselutly nothing wrong with the std pump and plate . don't know what the fixation is , and what no one has had trouble with aftermarket pumps. Max
Hey Max, when you say "std pump and plate" -- are you referring to the 2020 HD oem pump/plate or any of the 2018 - 2020 pumps that HD kept redesigning?
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on January 26, 2023, 01:11:59 PMQuote from: To The Max on January 26, 2023, 03:13:47 AMWhat a great big waste of money , abselutly nothing wrong with the std pump and plate . don't know what the fixation is , and what no one has had trouble with aftermarket pumps. Max
Hey Max, when you say "std pump and plate" -- are you referring to the 2020 HD oem pump/plate or any of the 2018 - 2020 pumps that HD kept redesigning?
Thanks
For the touring bikes, the 2020 standard pump and plate work fine in big bore applications. Do not use the earlier Standard HD pumps, they can sump.
Yes correct sorry for not being specific i was talking about the soft tail pumps . Max
Thanks Max, I have the 2019 pump (second last oem version for the Softail)... I'm still not sure whether it needs upgrading or not? Especially since I am going from 107" - 117" at 11:1 compression.
The last pump they did have out before the latest. Wasn't it the same pump except for the groove, and you could just buy the back plate with seal? Is that still an option?
Quote from: Adam76 on January 29, 2023, 09:55:45 PMThanks Max, I have the 2019 pump (second last oem version for the Softail)... I'm still not sure whether it needs upgrading or not? Especially since I am going from 107" - 117" at 11:1 compression.
Im running a 124 1t 11.1 George Brice is running 143 drag bike with a std pump and plate A.P.E run std pumps in their big builds no problem . you don't need more flow or more oil pressure , these motors run roller bearings not white metal bearings they don't require lots of oil pressure just enough pressure to feed the lifter's and rocker gear.
Quote from: To The Max on January 30, 2023, 03:21:15 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 29, 2023, 09:55:45 PMThanks Max, I have the 2019 pump (second last oem version for the Softail)... I'm still not sure whether it needs upgrading or not? Especially since I am going from 107" - 117" at 11:1 compression.
Im running a 124 1t 11.1 George Brice is running 143 drag bike with a std pump and plate A.P.E run std pumps in their big builds no problem . you don't need more flow or more oil pressure , these motors run roller bearings not white metal bearings they don't require lots of oil pressure just enough pressure to feed the lifter's and rocker gear.
OK thanks Max, I understand that the Harley OEM 2020 updated oil pump is sufficient for most builds.
But I don't have the latest pump... I have the 2nd last oem version (the 2019 version with the 10 lobe georotor). So I was really looking for advice on whether it was a good idea to update my pump to the latest Harley 2020 oem pump, or whether the 2019 version was sufficient for a built 117" motor?
Thanks for clarifying. :up:
Sumping is scavenger side of pump. Adam vent your breathers to atmosphere and if you are not finding oil all good. Also i watched DK interview a HD dealer and it showed pictures of a plug that is fitted to scavange area in case fitting to high keeping oil level high. Check yours.
Also 1/4 mile runs can be different a 2hr hard ride. Those racer can drop case oil
Quote from: JSD on January 30, 2023, 07:56:23 PMSumping is scavenger side of pump. Adam vent your breathers to atmosphere and if you are not finding oil all good. Also i watched DK interview a HD dealer and it showed pictures of a plug that is fitted to scavange area in case fitting to high keeping oil level high. Check yours.
Also 1/4 mile runs can be different a 2hr hard ride. Those racer can drop case oil
Thanks JSD, I'm not concerned about sumping... All I'm wanting is a properly designed and operational oil pump (Harley or aftermarket) that will do its job well. It's cheap insurance for a built motor, right? Although S&S pump is not cheap at all (AUD $972).
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 30, 2023, 03:14:22 AMThe last pump they did have out before the latest. Wasn't it the same pump except for the groove, and you could just buy the back plate with seal? Is that still an option?
Thanks hrdTail78, I think I saw a Youtube Video by Moonshine Harley that compared all the pumps, including different years of the HD versions - and the final 2020 revision had 8 lobe georotors and the 2019 and earlier had 10 lobes and was not as efficient. I could be wrong?
Adam i run US pumps on my builds.
Not cheap in OZ but a good Camplate $ Pump is cheap insurance i have found. S&S have a nice set up for your Scoot. Happy Days on your choice.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 30, 2023, 11:12:12 PMQuote from: hrdtail78 on January 30, 2023, 03:14:22 AMThe last pump they did have out before the latest. Wasn't it the same pump except for the groove, and you could just buy the back plate with seal? Is that still an option?
Thanks hrdTail78, I think I saw a Youtube Video by Moonshine Harley that compared all the pumps, including different years of the HD versions - and the final 2020 revision had 8 lobe georotors and the 2019 and earlier had 10 lobes and was not as efficient. I could be wrong?
Can anyone confirm if the OEM early 2019 oil pumps (2nd last update) is sufficient for a 117" built softail motor?
Is there any components of the pump that can be upgraded, like just the backing plate?
Our is the newest HD 2020 pump that much better and a good investment?
Thanks
The stock standard pump in the 2020 Softails is good enough for most builds that are going to be limited to Stage 3.
The S&S, SE Pro, and Feuling pump options are for builds that are going to exceed 122ci/124ci/128ci with stock spring lift cams.
If you don't have the 2020 standard pump, swapping to the OE 2020+ pump is fine and will be great for most builds.
I personally went with the SE Pro camplate and pump kit because it was the cheapest performance one at the time, and I wanted to overbuild my engine.
That all being said. To decide if you should swap the pump, just do a Sumping test. If your bike is fine, don't bother with changing it unless you're doing a cam swap.
https://youtu.be/F2N7kwCspQE
Adam if your pump has 10 lobes yes you should get a new factory replacement pump. It will be 8 lobe. You can also upgrade to the new orange SE unit that includes cam plate metal shavings magnets and some other upgrades.
For Softail, Harley 62400247 8 lobe oil pump is good for my 131" build.
Quote from: VernDiesel on February 08, 2023, 09:21:25 AMAdam if your pump has 10 lobes yes you should get a new factory replacement pump. It will be 8 lobe. You can also upgrade to the new orange SE unit that includes cam plate metal shavings magnets and some other upgrades.
I'm broke now and only upgrading parts that are necessary, not fancy or shiny or pretty...
The 2019 softails don't have a history of sumping problems, and the oem cam plate itself is adequate for moderate builds, so I've been advised by respectable vendors and engine builders.
Is the 2020 oem 8 lobe pump better? Yes, it definitely is. Is it necessary for my build? I'm not yet convinced.
The pump itself is not that expensive, and if I would upgrade anything it would simply be getting the 2020 8 lobe oil pump.
My build is a high compression 117" so I'm still undecided.
Engine builders advice welcomed.
Thanks
MoCo moved from the 10 lobe pump to the 8 lobe pump around June of 2019. I just confirmed my 6-19 build 2019 softail Sport Glide (107) came with the 8 lobe pump.
Quote from: VernDiesel on February 09, 2023, 03:17:31 AMMoCo moved from the 10 lobe pump to the 8 lobe pump around June of 2019. I just confirmed my 6-19 build 2019 softail Sport Glide (107) came with the 8 lobe pump.
Thanks, How did you confirm? My earliest manufacture date says May 2019... Then it has another date on the compliance sticker that says 9/2019
Quote from: Adam76 on February 09, 2023, 05:20:06 PMQuote from: VernDiesel on February 09, 2023, 03:17:31 AMMoCo moved from the 10 lobe pump to the 8 lobe pump around June of 2019. I just confirmed my 6-19 build 2019 softail Sport Glide (107) came with the 8 lobe pump.
Thanks, How did you confirm? My earliest manufacture date says May 2019... Then it has another date on the compliance sticker that says 9/2019
To confirm
Quote from: Adam76 on February 09, 2023, 05:20:06 PMQuote from: VernDiesel on February 09, 2023, 03:17:31 AMMoCo moved from the 10 lobe pump to the 8 lobe pump around June of 2019. I just confirmed my 6-19 build 2019 softail Sport Glide (107) came with the 8 lobe pump.
Thanks, How did you confirm? My earliest manufacture date says May 2019... Then it has another date on the compliance sticker that says 9/2019
My guess is that VernDiesel opened up his cam chest. :smile:
I will say this, and full transparency, I follow George Bryce's builds ever since he shut down Star Racing. The current bike he's building is a 145" full tilt Cop Bike. He said he's planning to be in the 8's. When he spoke about the oil pump, he said he was using the 2020 OEM pump and 2020 cam plate. When A guy who can afford what ever he want's buys an OEM part to used in an ultra high powered bike. I'd follow that guy.
Quote from: Ohio HD on February 09, 2023, 08:42:48 PMI will say this, and full transparency, I follow George Bryce's builds ever since he shut down Star Racing. The current bike he's building is a 145" full tilt Cop Bike. He said he's planning to be in the 8's. When he spoke about the oil pump, he said he was using the 2020 OEM pump and 2020 cam plate. When A guy who can afford what ever he want's buys an OEM part to used in an ultra high powered bike. I'd follow that guy.
Thanks Ohio,
That's not the first professional engine builder say the exact same thing about the 2020 OEM pump and plate.
My issue is that I have the one just before that final version (mid 2019) with the 10 lobe design.
If I had the 2020 one I'd just run it, but because I don't I have to rely on advice whether my build should really have the upgraded pump or not.
I'm guessing it probably should.
Just for reference my 2019 117" cvo came with the early pump.
20k miles. With no issues.
I then went to 124" with the latest pump after chasing some issues I thought were oil pressure related. The newest pump didn't help.
Went to the S&S pump but still had the other issues.
Finally figured out it wasn't pump related at all!
Now I have a early pump and a late pump on the shelf.
I think I paid under $200.00 for the latest Harley pump.
For a mild build I think your stock pump will be fine, or, if you have concerns get the latest.
JMHO
Yes I opened the cam chest.
I to have watched everyone of George's TTTs. He didn't have to buy the pump as an 8 lobe came with the bike. Most likely if he had gotten a 10 lobe pump he would have bought either a new 8 lobe pump or even the new orange 8 lobe pump with cam plate etc. For that matter on a drag bike the return side doesn't have a chance to matter much for an 8 second run.
George has a new LRST that he is cam testing with a bit before doing an uncharacteristic of George 131 build for. Which I looking forward to. 131 because its new and comes with the 4.5 stroke. Since its going to be a street bike that won't see 8,500 rpms like some of his past race builds did that small stroke difference won't matter much anyway.
Adam what is your estimate date for getting this motor together and tuned?
Vern, I'm dropping the cylinders ands pistons off to the machinist tomorrow. I will do a mock assembly, measure deck height and take them back for a final trim to get to zero deck height. Then order the HG, install the heads and put the camchest together.
Save some more $$$ for a decent exhaust and tune, Then I should be good to go. I'm not in any sort of hurry. :teeth: