2020 Ultra. 114, wet head. Am considering a cam change. Reading up as much as possible about it. In an earlier life, I changed cams (to Andrews 48) in an '09 UC and went 103. Loved the way it responded torque-wise but absolutely hated the valvetrain noise. That being said, My Valvetrain is very quiet, Id like to keep it quiet, but I want to use a torquer cam, riding in the 2000 to 4000 range (most cruising between 2-3k, 60-80 MPH). Very sparsely would I be carrying it out to 6K, unless just playing or wild hair up my end. Exhaust is currently decat stock head pipe, with V&H Hi Output 4.5 with the DB neutering inserts. Not looking for 'numbers', looking for hard pull and no issues passing cars on two lane roads, minimum valve train noise, both one and two up (mostly one), Tuning would be provided by a PV4. This of which, brought me to these two cams:
Woods 22x
Zippers RS468.
Pros an cons of each:
Woods 22x
Pros: Torque monster, right where I need it, off idle to about (a realistic) 4500.
Cons: Fast and steep ramps. Harder on valvetrain, open for more noise.
Zippers RS 468
Pros: Torque monster, slightly more to the right of the woods. More noticeable power at the 80MPH than the 60mph. Slightly easier on valve train.
Cons: Idles like a dragster. Harder to tune in general. Apparently needs a warm engine to operate better.
Other items that got me wondering is lifter bores. I read there is a wider tolerance on the bores and I'll be lucky to get a full set that fits correctly (not too loose, not too tight) as it is supposed to. Lifters themselves, WFO Larry, Woods Alpha, or S&S?
Cam plate: Some say replace, Some say gotta go S&S plate and pump (and that huge price tag), others say press on with pride using the old one (4500 miles on bike BTW), other say replace with stock anyhow, not to reuse old one.
Oil pump: Should be oK using a 2020 model? So far I've seen no issues with oil on this bike. Bought it used with 2300 miles on it in May.
Push Rods: use Stock and open the boxes? Go adjustable? And with that, SE, S&S, Fuel Moto, ETC?)
Sprockets: I read lower sprocket on almost all bikes are sloppy as sin. Replace with fueling or leave it be?
Anything else I might have left out concern-wise? Any other choices? (No, not looking at SE torque cam, as It seems I can get better performance going aftermarket). I am doing this myself and consider my abilities above average. Meaning, i do almost all my own maintenance, I've done twin cam cam changes, etc, so not scared to dive in, so to speak, just tryin to get the best info on the M8 before I tear into it.
Thanx for any advice in advance.
Woods 22x: tunes easy, hits hard. Wasnt any noisier than stock in a cross sample of one.
RS468: done a few for customers. Not my 1st choice. Wasnt terrible to tune, not the easiest. Exhaust played a big part in tuning and overall tq under the curve.
My "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480. Used them a ton and everyone is happy. Tunes easy, bikes accelerate great.
Cam plate/pump: if yours is the latest design that came out in 20- its plenty fine. Check sprocket fit. Replace lifter cuffs (be very very careful removing cuff bolt. Heat is your friend here) Use adjustables. The price MORE than makes up for not having to pull boxes and associated lines and such.
Two other areas worth mentioning: injectors and intake. 114s with cams and good exhaust can tax the stock injectors pretty hard. Not uncommon to see 90%+ duty cycle. A set of 5.5/6.2s aren't very spendy. The factory plastic intakes suck. Prone to cracking/leaking as well. The SE aluminum intake provides better flow (worth a couple/couple) and negates the cracking concerns. Also priced well.
Quote from: My "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480
Are you sure you don't mean the CR460? I thought the 480 was alittle more to the right of my scenario?
Also, are these rebranded Andrews Grinds?
Cycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo.... :scratch:
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:07:56 PMCycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo.... :scratch:
Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 05, 2022, 02:22:08 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:07:56 PMCycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo.... :scratch:
Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.
Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them.
I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:27:26 PMSure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them.
I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.
I saw a chart that showed the specs for both the 460 and 480, seems the 480 has quite a bit more duration than the 460 on the exhaust side. If it is a newer version, I am also surprised Fuel Moto didn't use it instead of the 460 in their 114 cam shootout.
Seems I cant put an image from my computer in.
CR460: OPEN CLOSE LIFT DURATION
in 6 20 .460 206
ex 46 0 .440 226
CR480: OPEN CLOSE LIFT DURATION
in 9 17 .480 206
ex 52 18 .470 250
That's quite a difference in numbers. I wonder how the performance differs. I can see the idle should be way more lopey on the 480
I'd trust m1marty's opinion. As well the manufacturer says it makes power from 2,000 to 5,000.
Cycle Rama CR480 (https://cycle-rama.com/shop/cr480-2/)
Take a look at the Sheffer Performance website or on facebook.
Lots of dyno run examples.
Looks like its the 480. Thanks for the replies.
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 05, 2022, 01:38:57 PMQuoteMy "go to" cam for your scenario is the CR480
Are you sure you don't mean the CR460? I thought the 480 was alittle more to the right of my scenario?
Also, are these rebranded Andrews Grinds?
I'm sure I meant the 480. There are quite a few examples thereof in the dyno section. The first one I came across (and a fantastic representation of what I'm speaking of), is Deyes.
Good selection of parts and a great tuner making them work. Up to you if something like this is adequate for your needs.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,115589.0.html
Throw in my .02, if you cant honestly say the 114 makes that 103 seem like a bus, then it dont matter what cam you go with, that motor is fine for the range you describe riding in. Dont waste time, funds and possibly making things worse by opening up the motor, spend it on jewelry for the bike or a ride as in gas, lodging, food. Ride the bike.
FWIW, my 2020 RGS, dreaded stock config, i pass two up without downshifting easy...maybe i am lucky?
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:27:26 PMQuote from: Propflux01 on September 05, 2022, 02:22:08 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:07:56 PMCycle Rama cams don't match any Andrews cam specs, sooo.... :scratch:
Gotcha. Didn't see the specs on each. Just saw the '460' part. I understand that Andrews grinds cams for several different companies.
Sure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them.
I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.
I believe so. The CR460 was a great cam. Nice idle and easy to tune.
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 05, 2022, 02:56:37 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on September 05, 2022, 02:27:26 PMSure, they may even grind them for Cycle Rama. But they would grind them at the specs Cycle Rama gives them.
I'm not 100% sure, but I "think' the CR460 was dropped and the CR480 is it's replacement. But I'm not 100% sure about that.
I saw a chart that showed the specs for both the 460 and 480, seems the 480 has quite a bit more duration than the 460 on the exhaust side. If it is a newer version, I am also surprised Fuel Moto didn't use it instead of the 460 in their 114 cam shootout.
Seems I cant put an image from my computer in.
CR460: OPEN CLOSE LIFT DURATION
in 6 20 .460 206
ex 46 0 .440 226
CR480: OPEN CLOSE LIFT DURATION
in 9 17 .480 206
ex 52 18 .470 250
That's quite a difference in numbers. I wonder how the performance differs. I can see the idle should be way more lopey on the 480
480 comes on earlier.
460 is smoother and is no slouch!!!
Quote from: Oclaf on September 08, 2022, 04:06:29 PMThrow in my .02, if you cant honestly say the 114 makes that 103 seem like a bus, then it dont matter what cam you go with, that motor is fine for the range you describe riding in. Dont waste time, funds and possibly making things worse by opening up the motor, spend it on jewelry for the bike or a ride as in gas, lodging, food. Ride the bike.
FWIW, my 2020 RGS, dreaded stock config, i pass two up without downshifting easy...maybe i am lucky?
Well, my 103 had an Andrews 48 in it, and was a torque monster in its own right. My 88, yeah, that was a bus. I look at it this way, I'll install the 480. If its not what I think it should be, I'll remove it, and reinstall the stock cam, and tune. Even then, I'll have upgraded lifters and cam bearing for the long haul.
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 09, 2022, 03:05:41 AMWell, my 103 had an Andrews 48 in it, and was a torque monster in its own right. My 88, yeah, that was a bus. I look at it this way, I'll install the 480. If its not what I think it should be, I'll remove it, and reinstall the stock cam, and tune. Even then, I'll have upgraded lifters and cam bearing for the long haul.
Aside from what m1marty had to say about the CR-480 being a good upgrade, here from our dyno section is one by Joe Lyons. Pretty sure this will walk all over a stock motor.
2020, 114'', FLHRS, CR480, V&H PROPIPE by Joe Lyons (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,115196.msg1382156.html#msg1382156)(https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1617323540;topic=115196.0;attach=104761;image)
This is a dyno run of a stock 114. Not bad, but a stage 2 setup adds a lot of get up and go to the 114 motor.
2018 Harley-Davidson Softail Fat Bob 114 Dyno (https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-harley-davidson-softail-fat-bob-114-dyno/)(https://www.cycleworld.com/resizer/yqHPpK8VYzVfvXCthF6wjSCmRAQ=/1440x0/filters:focal(45x45:55x55)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/T45LDVP7L5FYVEHI2CHVPG22HE.jpg)
My buddy is going in a different direction. SE slip ons, a real tune and an Andrews 31 tooth pulley. He says he never goes over 4000 revs cause he's old.
I like the CR-480 for a bolt in cam on the 114 or 117 motors. Works very well. Look at all of what Darren at Shaffer has done with that cam.
Quote from: Propflux01 on September 04, 2022, 09:39:26 AM2020 Ultra. 114, wet head. Am considering a cam change. Reading up as much as possible about it. In an earlier life, I changed cams (to Andrews 48) in an '09 UC and went 103. Loved the way it responded torque-wise but absolutely hated the valvetrain noise. That being said, My Valvetrain is very quiet, Id like to keep it quiet, but I want to use a torquer cam, riding in the 2000 to 4000 range (most cruising between 2-3k, 60-80 MPH). Very sparsely would I be carrying it out to 6K, unless just playing or wild hair up my end. Exhaust is currently decat stock head pipe, with V&H Hi Output 4.5 with the DB neutering inserts. Not looking for 'numbers', looking for hard pull and no issues passing cars on two lane roads, minimum valve train noise, both one and two up (mostly one), Tuning would be provided by a PV4. This of which, brought me to these two cams:
Woods 22x
Zippers RS468.
Pros an cons of each:
Woods 22x
Pros: Torque monster, right where I need it, off idle to about (a realistic) 4500.
Cons: Fast and steep ramps. Harder on valvetrain, open for more noise.
Zippers RS 468
Pros: Torque monster, slightly more to the right of the woods. More noticeable power at the 80MPH than the 60mph. Slightly easier on valve train.
Cons: Idles like a dragster. Harder to tune in general. Apparently needs a warm engine to operate better.
Other items that got me wondering is lifter bores. I read there is a wider tolerance on the bores and I'll be lucky to get a full set that fits correctly (not too loose, not too tight) as it is supposed to. Lifters themselves, WFO Larry, Woods Alpha, or S&S?
Cam plate: Some say replace, Some say gotta go S&S plate and pump (and that huge price tag), others say press on with pride using the old one (4500 miles on bike BTW), other say replace with stock anyhow, not to reuse old one.
Oil pump: Should be oK using a 2020 model? So far I've seen no issues with oil on this bike. Bought it used with 2300 miles on it in May.
Push Rods: use Stock and open the boxes? Go adjustable? And with that, SE, S&S, Fuel Moto, ETC?)
Sprockets: I read lower sprocket on almost all bikes are sloppy as sin. Replace with fueling or leave it be?
Anything else I might have left out concern-wise? Any other choices? (No, not looking at SE torque cam, as It seems I can get better performance going aftermarket). I am doing this myself and consider my abilities above average. Meaning, i do almost all my own maintenance, I've done twin cam cam changes, etc, so not scared to dive in, so to speak, just tryin to get the best info on the M8 before I tear into it.
Thanx for any advice in advance.
I've had both same bike 22x and 468 prefer the 468.
22x has a little more down low,I just prefer the 468,it just pull harder through the whole rpm range.
But to be honest it's just splitting hairs,all the cams that have been Mentioned in this thread will put a smile on your face.
Well, the 480 seems to be a bust....
I installed it and the PV tune from the Fuel Moto. 1st run was on the stock decatted header, with V&H Hi-Output 4.5 slip-ons neutered with DB reducers, as it was before the cam change (which ran pretty ok with stock cam, and gave stock power). Very noticeable "flat spot" from 2K to 3K. When I say flat, I mean going 50 MPH in 4th or 5th and giving it throttle, it struggles to make it to 3K and then takes off like a rocket. Sounds like the old days of an over-cammed V8 engine, Lotsa noise, mediocre acceleration, then take off. Definitely not in my RPM of riding a big bagger. Not really keen on going 60-70 in fourth at 3K+ just to keep the power up.
Next up, installed an S&S 2 into 1 Sidewinder pipe. No change in the way it runs, in fact, almost seemed a bit worse. Rode the same way neutered with DB reducers or with them removed. Loved the way it ran above 3K, but that's not where I ride (unless I'm on the highway, of course). Seems more of a mid range cam for a bagger, or probably work much better in a lighter bike, I don't know. So now what to do....? My first thought is to go back down to a real "torque cam" like the S&S 465, RS468, Andrews 460, or heck, even as desperate as the SE447. Now, yes, I know it needs a dyno tune and all that to get peak performance, but I cant see the canned tune from Fuel Moto I got being that much off. The 480 cam doesn't seem to suit the needs of my riding, which is 90% in the 2k to 3.5K general 2-lane and 4-lane cruising, and up to 4.5-5K when getting squirrely on the freeway or something. Cam was double checked for timing, not off a tooth or anything, Starts and runs ok. idles like dragster, of course.
So now that leaves me alittle stumped here on what to do. Or rather, which direction I should go. Any of the aforementioned cams? Someone mentioned its my exhaust. Well, I figure if it was, why on both a 2-1-2 and a 2-1? Neutered or not, same response. NO decel popping or black smoke out the back, no fuel smell. Just really doggy and has to catch up to itself before taking off. Any suggestions welcomed..
Kinda weird, the 114's with the 480 in the dyno section don't look to be weak below 3k. Might just need some tuning. Have you done any data collection and VE adjustments, or just flashed a starter map?
So far just flashed a map. Honestly, I'm not much at tweaking maps, and I don't think my PV4 will allow it anyhow. I just expected the tune to at least perform better than this, if the tune is the issue. I have had several tunes from FM for various bikes and conditions, none has ever run like this. I am stumped on that part.
Before changing cams again, I would contact FM and give them your symptoms. They have great customer service. Probably have you run a data log to submit and analyze. It took them a few tries to get rid of a reoccurring rich cylinder code but now it runs great/strong with a S&S 475 cam in my '18 RGS.
I was originally leaning toward the CR480 but at the time they didn't have much experience with it.
Agreed, don't give up on the cam yet without working on the tune. It may even involve a dyno run or two to dial it in. Cheaper than swapping the cam out.
Agree with Hoss. I wouldn't blame any parts when the tune (canned map) is suspect. Since my first injected bike in 2004, and 3 more following, I have learned the value of a tune only achieved by hours on the dyno by someone who is looking to give the customer a good running machine in all throttle positions.
Not necessarily the same variety of apples to apples, but a discussion along the same lines. How do you know, until you know?
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103837.0/all.html#msg1227801
68 HP with a stage 1, 103".
No afr on that graph.......................... "but it didn't cough or stall", LMAO.
You guys really think the tune is that far off? Bad thing is I needed a drivable tune for a bit, as the closest two tuners from me are 125 and 173 miles from me. That, and no Saturdays open kinda makes it harder to get to one.
With your description of how flat it is until 3000 rpm and then takes off like a rocket, that says that something is not right. Maybe a vacuum leak, maybe something else not tune related. It might not rip to 3000 rpm, but it should not be flat.
A call to Jaime would be a good start.
Quote from: Hossamania on November 20, 2022, 11:55:00 AMWith your description of how flat it is until 3000 rpm and then takes off like a rocket, that says that something is not right. Maybe a vacuum leak, maybe something else not tune related. It might not rip to 3000 rpm, but it should not be flat.
A call to Jaime would be a good start.
Well, that is definitely gonna be a start. I pretty much have all my mod purchases from them, and this cam is supposed to, as FM puts it, "
they provide excellent low and midrange performance" I just don't see that happening here. If I did end up changing cams, seems my choices for my type of riding, would limit me to
Andrews 460
S&S 465
Zippers RS468
Woods 22x
Woods 22XD (don't really like the idea of this one, as I know the ramps are very steep and not as valvetrain friendly)
Just for kicks you might check to make sure the O2 sensor connectors aren't swapped
Quote from: harpwrench on November 20, 2022, 01:14:17 PMJust for kicks you might check to make sure the O2 sensor connectors aren't swapped
Connectors are White to white and black to black, Cant really screw it up, at least not on this one. :up:
Can still be screwed up, make sure the sensor with the black connector is in the rear pipe
Quote from: harpwrench on November 20, 2022, 02:08:39 PMCan still be screwed up, make sure the sensor with the black connector is in the rear pipe
It is. Ones like 24" long, the other is only about 15 inches. Only fits one way.
Ah ha, O2 sensors for dummies. :up:
I'm the person who replied on the other forum about your exhaust, that was before you did all the explaining of what you already have done. I still think that the cam isn't the problem & if you hadn't said you had double checked the cam timing that would have been my next guess. As has been suggested give Jamie a call & see what he can come up with before you change cams again. I have a 107 with a S&S 475 & although it isn't a stump puller down low it still pulls smoothly from 1800 up & quite well from 2500 up, the 480 is supposed to be better down low than the 475, so I still don't think the cam is your main problem as that cam is said to be one of the best all around cams out there, probably why you bought it.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on November 20, 2022, 10:02:09 PMI'm the person who replied on the other forum about your exhaust, that was before you did all the explaining of what you already have done. I still think that the cam isn't the problem & if you hadn't said you had double checked the cam timing that would have been my next guess. As has been suggested give Jamie a call & see what he can come up with before you change cams again. I have a 107 with a S&S 475 & although it isn't a stump puller down low it still pulls smoothly from 1800 up & quite well from 2500 up, the 480 is supposed to be better down low than the 475, so I still don't think the cam is your main problem as that cam is said to be one of the best all around cams out there, probably why you bought it.
Thank you for replying here, as that thread pretty much died out. I wouldn't have an issue with it with the numbers you describe, 1800 then feeling it quite well at 2500. That is right in my range. I don't know what they are gonna say, I just get the feeling its gonna be something along the lines of "we gave a tune, nothing else we can do" type of thing. And you are correct. I did not want to go with the woods 22xD because I know what the steep ramps will eventually do to lifter bores and valvetrain, and this cam is hailed by many to be the best all around'er out there, and according to FM site, "
Designed as a bolt in for M8 engines with stock compression, low-mid power in 107, 114, 117 motors, Works well with stock springs". Hence my being stumped on this.
Fuel Moto is very responsive to tune questions and troubleshooting. Give them a chance.
As has been said, it's doubtful that the cam is the problem. It should at the very least be as good as the stock cam in those lower rpm, and in practice better than stock.
Quote from: Hossamania on November 21, 2022, 04:12:50 AMFuel Moto is very responsive to tune questions and troubleshooting. Give them a chance.
As has been said, it's doubtful that the cam is the problem. It should at the very least be as good as the stock cam in those lower rpm, and in practice better than stock.
100% agree, without FM having the bike in front of them, a canned map may not always work as planned. Like I mentioned prior, it may take them a few times to get it squared away. A data log will more than likely be needed to see whats going on, similar to looking at dyno data but doing it remotely. Not every motor set-up(exhaust, intake, etc) is the same and trying to build a map that covers all combinations has to be tough. Be patient with them, they really do make an effort to remedy your problem. On my issue it was a combination of multiple tweaks of they're canned 475 map then ultimately working from the oem stock map to get it dialed it. But in the end they got it right.
I could of changed cams and started the process all over and hoped another canned cam map worked like your saying now. It makes more sense to work on the current cam map than replace parts costing time/labor. IMO, just because one has a dyno doesn't make them good at the tuning process and may leave power on the table. It takes time and experience to refine the skill. So going local may not be the answer to get what you payed for. A local tuner with a good reputation of getting the most out of a motor is another story.
Eyes are on the cam with no mention of the pipe. With low overlap (stock cam) it doesn't matter much but as overlap is added pipe is a heavy influence on the torque curve shape.
Quote from: Don D on November 21, 2022, 06:24:39 AMEyes are on the cam with no mention of the pipe. With low overlap (stock cam) it doesn't matter much but as overlap is added pipe is a heavy influence on the torque curve shape.
Well, as I said before, not saying it isn't the pipes, but it was ran originally with stock header, V&H high output slip ons with DB reducers. A pretty common setup. I then changed it to an S&S Sidewinder 2-1 with db reducer also. Runs the same way. Even when reducers are removed. I can't see (again, no expert and not saying it can't)the same performance on 2 separate pipes, especially with a 2-1, which as I understand, are more torque oriented anyhow. :?:
Well, just got off the phone with FM. The guy I talked to said that the exhaust on the 2-1 should have made some difference in it, and that they had ran this cam before with peak torque numbers as low as 3k, (which would make me happy). He stated to do a compression test to see if timing was off. I asked if I could just take the cam cover back off and triple check and he said it wouldn't matter, there are other things involved. He then stated if the compression numbers are ok, then we go looking towards exhaust, but reiterated the exhaust really shouldn't be that much an issue, considering I've ran two different ones with literally no change in performance. So I have to get a comp tester, get the numbers, send them to him, and go from there.
Now I don't doubt this man's intelligence at all, he says he's been doing this for 20-plus years. But other than cam timing dots being off, what other mechanical means would allow the camshaft to be off time? I mean the splines only line up one way, and with the tensioner installed the dots line up just fine right now. Is there really any way to time it, say, off one tooth? Got me wondering about that now....
Maybe you could take a hacksaw to the end of the db reducer insert to make an adjustable flap to bend down like a spoon baffle? Then drill holes in the tube for exhaust to go around and get out. Not sure what it looks like. For how you describe your riding style I think an S&S 465 would work better if swapping cam. Or whatever similar cam that Jamie has actually tuned with that pipe, if you have to use a canned tune.
This topic has been moved to The Shed (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?board=32.0).
Please only upload your own personal images to the HTT website. Otherwise post a link.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=119092.0
Ok, didn't know. I thought the first one was removed because I screwed something up uploading and posting it, that why the second post was made. My apologies.
No problem. You can always just post a link to the image you want to discuss. Like below. It's not uploaded, rather linked to the S&S website.
(https://assetcloud.roccommerce.net/w458-h458-cpad//_sscycle/9/6/10/551-0063_web.jpg)
What I'm describing is something along the lines of what some VH pro pipes have
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MrUAAOSwOMlfO-sI/s-l300.jpg (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MrUAAOSwOMlfO-sI/s-l300.jpg)
Quote from: Propflux01 on November 21, 2022, 07:31:05 AMWell, just got off the phone with FM. The guy I talked to said that the exhaust on the 2-1 should have made some difference in it, and that they had ran this cam before with peak torque numbers as low as 3k, (which would make me happy). He stated to do a compression test to see if timing was off. I asked if I could just take the cam cover back off and triple check and he said it wouldn't matter, there are other things involved. He then stated if the compression numbers are ok, then we go looking towards exhaust, but reiterated the exhaust really shouldn't be that much an issue, considering I've ran two different ones with literally no change in performance. So I have to get a comp tester, get the numbers, send them to him, and go from there.
Now I don't doubt this man's intelligence at all, he says he's been doing this for 20-plus years. But other than cam timing dots being off, what other mechanical means would allow the camshaft to be off time? I mean the splines only line up one way, and with the tensioner installed the dots line up just fine right now. Is there really any way to time it, say, off one tooth? Got me wondering about that now....
Who knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.
Quote from: harpwrench on November 21, 2022, 12:25:46 PMWhat I'm describing is something along the lines of what some VH pro pipes have
Yes, those are very similar to the ones I'm my V&H pipes.
Quote from: 03wglideWho knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.
Yeah, I was itching to ninja that pipe back off, pop that cam cover back off and look again at the timing marks. While I still don't see how they could be screwed up, ya never know, and I gotta wait on the comp tester anyhow..
Quote from: 03wglide on November 21, 2022, 12:55:09 PMWho knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.
Here's the numbers if your curious:
Throttle blade closed: Front: 200 Rear: 200
Throttle blade open: Front: 250 Rear:250
Quote from: Propflux01 on November 22, 2022, 06:17:03 PMQuote from: 03wglide on November 21, 2022, 12:55:09 PMWho knows, possible you have a defective cam, timing dot marked wrong. I'm curious to see what the compression check says.
Here's the numbers if your curious:
Throttle blade closed: Front: 200 Rear: 200
Throttle blade open: Front: 250 Rear:250
The manual calls out for 175psi min., so I'd say that rules out timing or pushrod adjustment. I agree with you, don't think exhaust is the issue either. Especially after two different exhausts. The 4.5" I could see losing bottom end but the sidewinder 2:1 should've rebound. There has to be something over looked as it should perform better low to mid.
I have a S&S 475 using 4" grand national slip-on's with no complaints throughout the rpm range. I know there are other cams stronger on the bottom end but it works for me.
See what direction they take you next and remind them you used two different exhausts. Gut tells me a mapping correction is needed. I think submitting a data log would shed light on this.
The only thing mentioned so far was data logs and don't change out the cam because a new one might perform the same if another issue. I'm trying to find an experienced tuner in my area, closest so far is 150 miles away. Then the logistics involved in getting it there, provided they can even get me in. In the mean time, I have an extra DB reducer, so I'm going to do what @harpwrench stated about cutting it and making a spoon and see if the torque comes up.
I would recommend data logs for sure, I was hoping some experts would chime in here, but I'm thinking that those compression numbers are too high. You always check with the blades open, so that shows you are running 75psi over what's called for, those are race motor numbers. I'm not an expert for sure, but I think that could be pointing to a timing error as your cam timing controls your corrected CR. That's how you can run 12+ CR on pump gas, I'd at least let FM know about those CR numbers & see what they say. I hope you can get it resolved as your problem is the first complaint I've heard on that cam, I've heard of rare instances of cams being ground wrong also. I think the data logs would give FM the ability to sort this all out. GOOD LUCK
You might try another compression test with a different tester to verify the calibration of your tester. It's good that the numbers are even, though high. A second test will verify or possibly discount those numbers.
A stock 114" M8 should see somewhere around 225 to 230 cranking pressure with the ACR's disconnected. Not knowing the OEM 114 cam specs, it's possible the Cycle Rama cam is bumping the cranking pressure up.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on November 24, 2022, 12:13:49 AMI would recommend data logs for sure, I was hoping some experts would chime in here, but I'm thinking that those compression numbers are too high. You always check with the blades open, so that shows you are running 75psi over what's called for, those are race motor numbers. I'm not an expert for sure, but I think that could be pointing to a timing error as your cam timing controls your corrected CR. That's how you can run 12+ CR on pump gas, I'd at least let FM know about those CR numbers & see what they say. I hope you can get it resolved as your problem is the first complaint I've heard on that cam, I've heard of rare instances of cams being ground wrong also. I think the data logs would give FM the ability to sort this all out. GOOD LUCK
I thought a bit high myself, Fuel Moto Guy did not seem concerned about it. I did see a video on someone doing comp test with an S&S 475 cam installed and his was 225, so I didn't give it much thought. They were even with each other though, which I thought was good. He Stated:
"Your compression numbers are where they should be so this will remove the conversation about cam timing. I did not ask you, is this bike consistently off on power? What I mean is, does the bike perform better at any times and then the power degrades? " Seems to me if timing were advance, to make those numbers high, Id gobs of low torque an no upper end. But His other question led me to think maybe they think it might be sumping, even mildly?
Base maps are just that, basic starting points. I have yet to see one that didn't need work. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.
Quote from: m1marty on November 24, 2022, 04:26:38 PMBase maps are just that, basic starting points. I have yet to see one that didn't need work. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.
:agree:
I have a CR480 in my 119 kit M8 and it has power throughout 2000-5000 and always puts a smile on my face. The canned map from FM worked BUT when I got it to my tuner... Wow!!!
Quote from: Luke119 on November 25, 2022, 03:09:10 PMQuote from: m1marty on November 24, 2022, 04:26:38 PMBase maps are just that, basic starting points. I have yet to see one that didn't need work. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.
:agree:
I have a CR480 in my 119 kit M8 and it has power throughout 2000-5000 and always puts a smile on my face. The canned map from FM worked BUT when I got it to my tuner... Wow!!!
There you go. Personal experience. Not from a bar stool. :agree: :up:
Putting a tune into an ECM means nothing (no matter how many times you do it) if you can't test it and adjust it while monitoring the effect of the changes. You can't condemn cam, timing, exhaust or any other component until it is properly analyzed. That is most effectively done on a dyno
I'm beginning to think the same thing. When the weather gets a bit better I'm going to try and do data logs with the PV4. Maybe that might get me a better map until I can do the logistics for a dyno tuner.
Quote from: Propflux01 on November 25, 2022, 08:04:10 PMI'm beginning to think the same thing. When the weather gets a bit better I'm going to try and do data logs with the PV4. Maybe that might get me a better map until I can do the logistics for a dyno tuner.
If your data log is in colder weather conditions it will deliver different results. If that data is used to adjust the map there will be no way to know if it moves closer to optimum or away. The dyno option is a slam dunk if the tuner is an experienced operator with an OCD tick.
Did we determine if the PV4 will interface with the Powercore (Winpep8) software?
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 28, 2022, 05:59:02 AMDid we determine if the PV4 will interface with the Powercore (Winpep8) software?
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,117640.msg1419950.html#msg1419950
Yeah, I asked that question awhile back, I didn't like the idea of my original tune solely on my phone. I like things "backed up", if you will.
Quote from: kd on November 26, 2022, 08:22:38 AMQuote from: Propflux01 on November 25, 2022, 08:04:10 PMI'm beginning to think the same thing. When the weather gets a bit better I'm going to try and do data logs with the PV4. Maybe that might get me a better map until I can do the logistics for a dyno tuner.
If your data log is in colder weather conditions it will deliver different results. If that data is used to adjust the map there will be no way to know if it moves closer to optimum or away. The dyno option is a slam dunk if the tuner is an experienced operator with an OCD tick.
Just curious, why is this? If the map was set in, say 80*F, would the ECM not adjust or account for this?
Yes, I agree about the dyno, again, logistics and finding a good tuner around me is the issue at the moment. There's one about 150 miles away, and another in KCMO that's supposed to be good, and I've got relatives there. Haven't heard a reply from them, though. Then it's getting the bike up there, taking time off work, etc. usual stuff.
Quote from: Propflux01 on November 28, 2022, 11:07:44 AMQuote from: kd on November 26, 2022, 08:22:38 AMQuote from: Propflux01 on November 25, 2022, 08:04:10 PMI'm beginning to think the same thing. When the weather gets a bit better I'm going to try and do data logs with the PV4. Maybe that might get me a better map until I can do the logistics for a dyno tuner.
If your data log is in colder weather conditions it will deliver different results. If that data is used to adjust the map there will be no way to know if it moves closer to optimum or away. The dyno option is a slam dunk if the tuner is an experienced operator with an OCD tick.
Just curious, why is this? If the map was set in, say 80*F, would the ECM not adjust or account for this?
Yes, I agree about the dyno, again, logistics and finding a good tuner around me is the issue at the moment. There's one about 150 miles away, and another in KCMO that's supposed to be good, and I've got relatives there. Haven't heard a reply from them, though. Then it's getting the bike up there, taking time off work, etc. usual stuff.
The tuner /ECM combination usually has restrictions to the amount of plus or minus adjustment it can make. That's one of the basic reasons most tunes start out with a basic canned tune that is deemed (hoped)to be close. Again, I am not a tuner and only have a basic knowledge of tuner performance. Your question is much better answered by one of the members that tunes regularly.
The ambient temp won't matter. Log away.