I picked up an oil leak on Sunday behind the generator. I thought it was coming from the generator-to-engine area so I pulled the generator. I have a crack running from the case bolt just behind the generator around to the front of the motor and it stops at the large rib that supports the left front case motor mount. The crack also extends back from the case bolt to the first rib.
This is a photo of the area and I've drawn in where the crack is.
[attach=0,msg566437]
UGH!
sorry to hear that suc*s to be you at the moment
hope all gets welded and you get back to normal
time for your great detail pictures if there is a bright side for us lurkers
I know you'll get it sorted out Craig. Wish there was easily accessible x-ray service for guys running the old iron to check cases and frames etc. for "hairlines" during a rebuild process.
Damn Graig, sorry man ! And after all that work you just did, friggen shame.
I would imagine that you'll tear the engine down for a nice repair. Do you have anyone local , or ya gonna send it out?
Thanks for support guys. I imagine we've all been there. I am really annoyed that this happened only 7 months after the last teardown was finished. But last time was mostly chassis & transmission work and I only touched the topend of the motor. I haven't decided if I'm up to doing this one myself or if I'll turn it over to a trusted motor guy. I'll certainly do all the R&R of the motor. Just not sure if I'll go beyond that. This bottom end has just a smidge over 100K miles on it, so it's not like it wasn't due for some attention.
Well, back to riding the Vespa for a while again. It started on the first kick this morning after a long rest. :scoot:
-Craig
Craig, sorry to see that. Know how you must feel. Just got my right case back from Creekside couple weeks ago as you know from prev posts. He did an awesome job. He will not bead blast unless you want him to. Just requires you clean the case good, and under no circumstance use brake clean. My case looks brand new. He did bead blast , but plugged all the oil holes before blasting and cleaned the case afterwards.
Quote from: panomaniac on July 24, 2012, 01:29:48 PM
Craig, sorry to see that. Know how you must feel. Just got my right case back from Creekside couple weeks ago as you know from prev posts. He did an awesome job. He will not bead blast unless you want him to. Just requires you clean the case good, and under no circumstance use brake clean. My case looks brand new. He did bead blast , but plugged all the oil holes before blasting and cleaned the case afterwards.
Whats the reason for not using brake clean ? :nix:
Really sucks to hear this Craig. This is your down time in that part of the country so hopefully you can get it back up and runnin before the real season hits. And yep why can't you use brake clean?
The brake cleaner residue can be deadly when tig welding-it turns into poisonoius fumes
If you use non-clorinated brake clean you don't have to worry about phosgene gas. But if I'm a welder, I'm not sure I want to trust my health/life to a 3rd party knowing the difference between the two types of brake clean.
-Craig
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on July 24, 2012, 06:32:45 AMThis bottom end has just a smidge over 100K miles on it, so it's not like it wasn't due for some attention.
-Craig
Thats what it is.These bikes were never designed to go 100,000 miles in the first place.You were lucky to get 40,000 miles out of a car in the 60s and 70s.I love it when I see these people paying big money for barn finds and the motors are pristine because half of them only have a couple thousand miles on them.Wait till they start riding them around and things start cracking.These things were built out of just about the crappiest aluminum of the day.Even new cars today if you overheat the motor once,the heads or the block is done.And thier made out of way better aluminum.
Quote from: 58Tin on July 24, 2012, 06:29:37 PM
The brake cleaner residue can be deadly when tig welding-it turns into poisonoius fumes
I did not know this about brake cleaner, even tho we got taught long ago that R12 freon turns to phosgene gas with high heat or a flame. Good to know :up:
I was thinking more along the lines of clean up after the job is done, ie. getting all the bead media out. Normally I use carb cleaner for that.
I'm gonna have to pay more attention to what I,m doing before welding from now on. Thanks
Dayum Craig !! Here I was all in a good mood this morning & then I came across this. :cry: Really hate to hear the news man. Enough $$$ & time & I know you'll get her all fixed up. Keep us posted on your progress.
Not that it makes your situation any better, but I wanted to comment on something. That very same bolt on my '61 Pan used to have oil leaking out of that hole until I put a banjo bolt washer behind it to seal the opening. Not a huge leak, just a bit of oil that would run out behind the bolt. From what I understand that bolt passage is not tied into the pressurized oil system & I do not have a leak at the outside joint of the cases so I assume the inner surface of the cases have some porosity issues, letting oil into that hole from the inside of the case.
Quote from: twincamzz on July 25, 2012, 04:29:28 AM
Dayum Craig !! Here I was all in a good mood this morning & then I came across this. :cry: Really hate to hear the news man. Enough $$$ & time & I know you'll get her all fixed up. Keep us posted on your progress.
Not that it makes your situation any better, but I wanted to comment on something. That very same bolt on my '61 Pan used to have oil leaking out of that hole until I put a banjo bolt washer behind it to seal the opening. Not a huge leak, just a bit of oil that would run out behind the bolt. From what I understand that bolt passage is not tied into the pressurized oil system & I do not have a leak at the outside joint of the cases so I assume the inner surface of the cases have some porosity issues, letting oil into that hole from the inside of the case.
Thats why you see guys paint the insides with sealer before they put them back together.Nothing is getting by that sealer to leak out.
What kind of sealer? Seriously--Iwould like to know.
If I remember right, GE Glyptal was recommended for coating the crankcase inner surface.
+1 ^^^ Glyptal is good stuff. The inside of my cases were coated with that back in 2003. My bottom end has been relatively oil tight for 100K miles... Until Sunday and even Glyptal couldn't help me there. :teeth:
More specifically it is Glyptol 1201 Red Enamal. They make numerous types of Glyptal in varying formulas for different purposes.
Well Craig, it looks like we are both down for a short while. Ol Betsie finally said she was too tuckered out to keep goin. Only 70k on them factory pistons? WTH??? LOL. Since I'm splitting the cases anyhow, I'll see about the case sealer. Sounds like a great Idea! Looking forward to your pics....
EASY
Easy, sorry to hear that Betsie is giving you some trouble. But these old girls need some rest and a bit more TLC then the younger models. Kind of the opposite of the human world where the younger they are the higher maintenance they are. :hyst:
I talked to the guy who is going to do the repair. Not only is he a skilled welder/machinist but he's an experienced builder of knucks/pans/shovels. He actually wants me to send him the entire bottom end so he can check things out in it's current state and make sure something else didn't cause the case to crack. I'll have him button it all back up again before returning it to me. Looks like I'll just be R&Ring the motor and the top-end. This works really well for me because I've been so slammed at work that I don't have the energy to spend hours in the garage after working all day. Especially this time of year when it hovers around 100F out there.
-Craig
Yeah I know the feeling! Wouldn't ya know it, as soon as I need to get Ol Betsie on my table, I get SWAMPED at the shop! I have a part time mechanic to help me out with the 4-wheelers and some of the bikes but I have to constantly look over his shoulder, so even though it speeds things up at the shop, it slows me to a crawl. Lord knows I been needing to train a mechanic though to help out from time to time.
Since he has the 4 wheelers caught up for now, I might just let him start pullin Betsie apart. I think he'll enjoy that. Since there is not much chance of me getting to tear her down myself anytime soon and rebuild the bottom end, I'll just bite the bullet, send them off to T&O for some torque monsters. Good luck on your ol gal, I'm sure she'll be in good hands.
EASY
Craig, the 1201 Glyptol that you mentioned, is that the same that is used by folks that rewind electric motors?
Motorplex, yes, that's the stuff.
:up:. Sorry about your situation. At least the Vespa is up to the task of being a crutch. :scoot:
This is just part of riding an old bike. I won't let it get me down.
The Vespa is a great bench player.
Any word on your engine yet Craig?
EASY
Slow progress so far Easy. I didn't even get the motor out of the frame until 10 days ago. I got sick (sinus and ear infections) the weekend after I discovered the crack and that has been a slow recovery (getting old really sucks in some ways). The motor is all packed up and ready to go to the guy who's going to make the repairs for me. The freight company picks it up tomorrow from my house.
-Craig
(getting old really sucks in some ways)
I'm getting to know that more and more every day!
EASY
Argh! :banghead:
The crack is worse then it looks. After disassembling the motor and heating up the case it's apparent that the crack goes all the way across the number boss before it stops. That means the numbers are going to be obliterated with the repair. I already have an assigned vehicle number so there won't be any legal hassle. But I hate the idea of losing the motor number on these cases. Nothing I can do about it though. Without the repair, the cases are junk.
Oh well... onward and upward.
-Craig
I suppose this is a stupid question, but can't they be restamped legally. Has anyone ever asked the DMV if that could be done in case's(no pun intended) like this.
WOW, yeah that sux! Sorry bout that Craig.
EASY
Quote from: spoke on September 14, 2012, 12:32:31 AM
I suppose this is a stupid question, but can't they be restamped legally. Has anyone ever asked the DMV if that could be done in case's(no pun intended) like this.
If the number block can be dressed up I'd restamp. Those numbers were done by hand with machine stamps back then.
Numbers cannot be restamped legally. That was common practice in the old days, but sometime around 1984, IIRC, that became illegal. Now, I'm sure I could redress the number boss and restamp the numbers if I found the right shaped stamps. Nobody would probably ever know unless they looked really really close. But I see botched numbers on ebay all the time. Usually they are obvious because the person doing the stamping used stamps with the wrong font.
-Craig
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on September 13, 2012, 08:00:46 PM
Argh! :banghead:
... it's apparent that the crack goes all the way across the number boss before it stops. That means the numbers are going to be obliterated with the repair. ...-Craig
Maybe drill the crack on each side of the Number Boss, plug weld the drilling and then gouge the backside of the Number Boss and weld, leaving the numbers untouched? :scratch: Probably not a good practice, but wtf? :nix:
I agree with Snuff, it's worth a try at the very least to attempt to save the numbers cracked or not. What ever you do, make sure it is extremely well documented.
EASY
Just welding the backside leaves a big risk of the crack restarting. This repair is way too expensive to take that chance. Since I already have an assigned vehicle number and a blue tag on the frame, the motor numbers don't really matter anymore. There is no mention of the motor number on the title.
-Craig
Ya gotta do, what ya gotta do , even if it sux. Bummer !
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on September 14, 2012, 08:34:59 PM
. Since I already have an assigned vehicle number and a blue tag on the frame, the motor numbers don't really matter anymore. There is no mention of the motor number on the title.
-Craig
:nix: Then it shouldn't be illegal to restamp. I would try to dress up the number block and re-stamp. to the eye would look good.
It may not be illegal since I've already got a blue tag. And i might consider it if I can find the right stamps. But it feels dishonest.
-Craig
I dunno, if you are restoring the exact numbers then technically there really is no harm, tough call. From what I gather you are going to obliterate the numbers with the repair and it won't be factory or repair the numbers and it won't be factory.
I suppose somewhere down the road, in the hands of your heirs and for sale, some expert might call "cheater cheater". You could document the damage, the repair, and the re-stamping complete with pics and even have it notarized if you wanted to. Knowing you ride the wheels off that thing and will probably be buried with it the likelihood of someone getting ripped off is pretty slim. I'd probably re-stamp the numbers just for my own reference. It ain't like you're printing funny money in your basement.
Good luck!
- Mark
Craig, you having Perry fix the motor??
Robin
Craig, years ago I bought a recovered stolen bike. Was a 98 Sporty and the numbers were ground off. Someone used JB Weld to flatten out the number boss. Well what they didn't think of was that there was another number on the bottom of the motor. I simply built up the number boss with the TIG, filed it back flat, went over it a few times with a wire brush on my drill so that the repair looked like part of the casting, then restamped the number back into it. There was no changing of numbers. It was titled off that number even though the frame was a rigid Poughco. I had been checked once by the local Sheriff and he couldn't tell the difference. (in 98 they used the dot matrix numbers that they use today) I used one of those push punched that you don't need a hammer with.
EASY
It's to bad about the numbers but I would rather have the cases repaired in a proper manner as to assure reliability. As far as legalities, it might not hurt to ask??
Robin, yes, Perry at Flo Headworks is doing this repair for me.
I asked Perry about the possiblity of stop drilling the crack at each side of the number boss and then only welding it on the backside in that area. He said he had already given that some thought and had talked to a few guys in the business and they all felt that it would give the crack a place to start again. The concensus was that the numbers had to be sacraficed to make a proper repair.
I also asked Perry about restamping. He said in California, where his shop is located, it is absolutely illegal to restamp numbers. It doesn't matter that he knows it's all legit. The act of restamping numbers (even numbers that are not on the title) is illegal. I know a guy in Illinois who restores a lot of old bikes and he told me the same thing. I'm pretty sure this extends to all states because the anti-tampering laws he is referring to are federal laws.
I'm sure I could get the correct stamps myself and "restore" the numbers in my garage. I'm just not sure it's worth the possible hassle.
-Craig
Been following along here and though theres allot of talk about numbers, I wonder what caused the crack and if the shop doing the repair is dye checking the rest of the case. :nix:
War Horse, yes, the entire case (both halves actually) will be closely inspected for cracks. The last thing I want is to do all this work and spend all the money and be back in the same boat next year. The cause of the crack is a bit of a mystery. Although in my research I have found several guys who have had similar cracks in their cases. After tearing down the bottom end, there were no issues with bearings being overly worn and no issues in the cam case. The wear was less then what you might expect for a motor with 100K miles on it.
I have total confidence that these guys will do that right thing to build a strong reliable motor. They built it the first time and the performance has been outstanding. Thats why I sent it back to them to do it again. I can't complain a bit about a panhead that I got 100K miles on between rebuilds. I wish I had the time, skill and equipment to do it all myself but this work is best left to a full time professional.
-Craig
"I'm sure I could get the correct stamps myself and "restore" the numbers in my garage. I'm just not sure it's worth the possible hassle."
I'm pretty sure dealers are authorized by the factory to restore engine numbers on the older stuff. Not trying to debate just help. Might save you crap from a nosey cop who isn't up on regs. To some LEO's a destroyed number block looks more suspicious.
I'll ask around. We have a really old shop in town (Buddy Stubbs H-D) that might still have stamps. I'm pretty sure that dealers have not been allowed to stamp motors since the mid 80's. I believe they return the motors to H-D today to get stamped.
I do appreciate the input.
-Craig
i lost a rod on my 54pan.
it was a bit of a hot rod. i rode it very hard...
dealer sent broken case to factory. this was in mid 60's.
they destroyed case and sold me a new one with same numbers.
then some cali cop thought it looked too good after a speeding stop.
he took bike and said they used some acid to bring out old numbers.
surprise, no old stamp. got bike back. but was a major hassell.
guess what i am getting at craig is if overstamp it can be brought out.
then the trouble starts.
on other hand you not a 20 year old kid riding crazy on ...
well...oops, i have seen you on the canyon road...
Yeah... They can definitely bring out an "overstamp" with acid. Not sure how that works when the old area was v-ed out for welding and then welded up. Unfortunately, half obliterated numbers because of a repair looks fishy too. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.
-Craig
No worries about the acid trick, Craig, the metal will have been changed so much by the welding and the resurfacing that no amount of acid will raise a number or any resemblance of one. Go on and stamp it if you can find the correct stamps.
EASY
long ago and far away many old bikes were stolen and stamped.
i think the acid showed the disturbance in the molucules of the metal. even guys that XXXXed all the old numbers away the XXXX's showed.
and anything brought up would be stolen in their minds.
(rightfully so)
but yeah, massive welding should do it.
your tin tag is the way to go.
dont think anybody gonaa mess with a old guy on old bike.
especially if he not poor and a known theif.
still you a photo whore.
document everything. maybe bring in a friendly leo to sign a few.
cant be too careful with that jewel. you have had too much history with it to lose it.
or just ride the pink vespa. we wont laugh, honest! (LOLOLOLO)
The Vespas are black and silver... But I still won't be riding the Hello Kitty scooter. I'll leave that for Debbie. She looks a lot better on it than I do.
-Craig
i know. i just threw in the pink deal to yank your chain.
would not laugh anyway if debbie on hers with the tutu and the hello kitty AR-15, with that combo you could be riding anything and i would not laugh.
i like a little bike for messsing around neighborhood also.
have a buell for such. was really thinking of setting up the rickman 500 triumph for same.
but its nice as is and to license it would be a major deal.
no papers. so bonded title and all it entails.
plus no lighting so would have to set up some sort of lucas (prince of darkness) system.
other option for me would be to build a mustang scooter.
shop had one when i was in early teens. was a blast to scoot around the shop areas/errands when not wanting to kickover the 55kh
course it would have to have skulls and such...lol.
but back (sorta) on topic. old bikes and numbers can be a problem.
most of it is your attitude and the cop involved.
a friend who is sgt in Az highway patrol also races AHRMA.
(arizona historical racing motorcycle association)
he stopped by a couple years ago for me to work on his old CZ.
looking over the dead pile of bikes on outside he said it would be a numbers nightmare. but who steals 60's euro race bikes?
(not even the restored ones)
most of our restored ones have some sort of bill of sale and thats it.
hell in the 60's thats all you got from a dealer anyway.
and after 40 years or so of riding and racing through many hands most engine #'s dont match frame.
not to mention the swaps we do in house.
it is evident we not a vintage euro stolden bike ring. so it just happens..and we not building race bikes for a living..
i old and retired with a leo past and my partner is old retired leo...
back to pan. i would leave it smooth. just weld and clean up.
as long as frame #is good...
if restamp all sorta stuff might surface.
when i licensed my buell here, bought in calif, the inspector just checked frame number. i showed him where the eng number was.
was not interested, said engines get blown up and changed all the time. they in car mode. a good engine is worth way more than a bare frame.
that is my experence with it..
Ok... I got some photos back from Perry after getting the case cleaned up. He heated the case up to 200F and the extent of the crack becomes more evident. You can see how the oil migrated out of the crack as the case was heated leaving a trail of oil.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/84w9iWMXt2ju4nMX9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/3k3zRidDVN5dETUM9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/97v57GzQfcwcDwg66)
The crack ran all the way around the front of the case and stopped at the point where the right and left cases meet.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/bsnNbJPQBQ2fbDpH8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/V2LZ3ninDmxdRYgV6)
This part of the crack is on the front of the case behind the generator.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z5vfexhDSJ4aJRTt6)
Here the crack crosses under the hole where the front case bolt holds the right and left cases together.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/d9GxBuiB83deYx2R7)
Here you can see the crack pass right through the strengthening rib to the left of of the motor number boss.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/udczCtsAPXgeU3YU9)
You can see the trail of oil right along the base of the number boss. The crack terminates maybe 1/2" to the right of the number boss.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/vvvRJnMNdKh8zQ6L6)
WOW. Well at least it was found before the motor grenaded. I went by and saw my heads at the machine shop today, they did a great job on the dual plugging, and cut my rear pulley down for me to change over to belt on the Shovel. Since the wreck, that is about as much as I could do though. I just don't have the strength right now to attempt installing the tranny or swapping out my front end.
EASY
Has Perry issued a verdict? Does he think they will hold up after welding?, or start to crack in another place?
EASY,
It's funny how we get to know our motors. The last day I rode it to work, a Monday morning after I had ridden it hard on Sunday, when I left the house I felt and odd "knock" in the motor. Immediately thought something was wrong but figured it was a loose motor mount from the thrashing the day before. The knock went away after the motor warmed up. Noticed the same thing on the ride home from work. When I pulled the generator there was oil coming from the crack behind the generator. No oil up along the side of the motor so I didn't realize the crack extended nearly as far as it does. But it's a good lesson. When something doesn't feel right, listen to your gut and investigate further. I don't think this was far from being a real disaster and totally wrecking the motor.
Deye76,
Perry is confident the case is repairable and can be fixed with high confidence.
-Craig
"Perry is confident the case is repairable and can be fixed with high confidence."
:up: Good news
Those are awesome pics. One can only imagine the carnage had it gone to busting open. Will this require everything being reset as if you were using an unmatched left case? Seems with all the welding they'll be movement of all major surfaces and races.
Can't wait to see the finished results.
ricochet
ricochet,
Yes! After all the welding everything will need to be straightened out, flattened, line bored, etc. It's not worth doing it twice to save a little time/money the first time.
-Craig
Wow Craig, that is a serious fix you've got going on.
Good Luck!
- Mark
Mark, I try to do everything with excellence... including cracking my case. :hyst: :emoGroan:
LMAO well you couldn't have done that much better for sure. By the sound of it, you couldn't have sent it to someone better to fix it either!
EASY
Wow. Not an easy thing to look at first thing in the morning...kinda like my ex wife. lol. Glad to hear that the cases can be saved ! :up:
EASY, Perry is a guy I really trust. His prices aren't bargain basement but neither is his work. He's the guy who built this motor for me back in 2003. I figure since I put 100K miles on it, he did something right. I'll let him do it again.
I'm sure there are a good number of shops that could make this repair. I kind of believe in customer loyalty. When a shop does good by me, I try to return my business there whenever possible.
Quote from: twincamzz on September 26, 2012, 04:56:42 AM
Wow. Not an easy thing to look at first thing in the morning...kinda like my ex wife. lol. ...
:hyst:
-Craig
Craig, didn't your build thread last year start because you heard a rattle you thought was a cracked frame? I did not go back & re-read it yet, I remember you just completed it & started riding again. Best of luck on the weld job.
drinner
Yes back in July 2011 I tore into the bike because of a oscillation that felt like the wheels not staying in line. The knock in the motor this time was completely different. I knew this was coming from the motor or perhaps a loose motor mount.
EDIT: Oh ... and yeah... I had only ridden it about 7 months before this thing happened with the motor case. Would have been more convenient if it had happened at the same time. That's just the way it goes I guess.
-Craig
Ok... now the photos are going to get really ugly for a while. Lots of grinding in this first set of photos. The repair of the timing plug hole is started. The crack has been tack welded in 4 places to keep the case from warping when he starts welding on the inside.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/kUqmaH7cN1yf3N6h7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/gFvGAgvshjtnKpt5A)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/LvJyX2KTJNGFnH6M7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/kJKBLPscjefjvECr7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/MFgfRS68HVBt77tKA)
WOW! Well, here goes nothing..... Good luck Craig!
EASY
Beautiful welds! I'm sure it will work. You may have to machine the parting line on both cases. An align bore of the cases would be wise.
I gotta ask Craig, How do you get all the oil out of those old porous cases for welding? I was going to have a guy weld up my busted factory inner but he wasn't as good as he thought he was. I ended up with a Cal Products inner that I am pretty happy with.
- Mark
The welds you see so far are just tack welds to keep the case from warping while the crack is welded on the inside. The weld work around the timing plug will be machined and re-textured to look as close to original as possible. It's a long teadeous process.
Mark, the cases were hot tanked for 10 days after disassembly. Even with that it looks like there might be a bit of oil coming out of that crack. Grinding out the crack should help eliminate that problem.
Ajayrk, the seam surface between the cases will definitely have to be machined flat again. Line boring is a given too.
There is definitely no turning back at this point! LOL
-Craig
Craig, I've been welding for quite a few years. I've seen good welders and bad, this man, who is doing your cases, shows a hell of alot of talent! I see in the pics, that he welded up the timing hole then cut it down and textured it. Simply fantastic display of metalwork there. Once it's all said and done, and you're back out eatin bugs in style again, we'd appreciate his name, number and a round about price for this miracle he is providing. Even with the equipment I have, and have access to, I still don't have that talent, to make the repair disappear!
EASY
More photos. This is hard to watch! But I have confidence that the final product will look good.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/PUME8TxGCZNtLFsTA)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/mGtptZg1g3ijE3dW7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AJfQVkzCJbmvufNV8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCtMfDUnChKRi9q67)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/hHJqCRaNMCFHzDFn7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AKyEKFejW69dEPkc8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/fECfDk6zBg3L7rpA7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/2afKYBjH6ykVhXVc9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/FK7Sewce1oKfnPYQ9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/nMSqCGRfBrF49hwYA)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/H8dWSkW6vMsMoBj56)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/4tGCZhBbKebRmQi1A)
Looking REALLY good Craig. I'm not seeing much sand/oil/trash in those welds at all. He did a fantastic job of cleaning it all up and welding. You got nothing to sweat at all!
EASY
Yup, gonna go a long time :up:. Perry's welds are a work of art.
Perry owns the shop and does all the machine work and grinding. He's the one who will do the cosmetic surgery to make it look good again. He's got a guy named Kirby who does his welding. All my contact is with Perry so that's why his name comes up. What I like about doing business with him is that he's a one stop shop. I can send him this repair and he knows where to draw the line on his skills and bring in some outside expertise.
-Craig
A bit more progress...
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/vZwaDuRyuz6iSqSF6)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/SHuMxnSgQbF1xiTd7)
Cool! Pneumatic peening to relieve stress.
Exactly! I don't know exactly how that relieves stress. But when I asked Perry about it, that was the short answer.
I've heard of peening , but never really got the whole drift, so I looked it up on various sites, great idea but scary in a way also;
Peening the weld bead stretches it and relieves the residual stresses. However, peening must be used with care. For example, a root bead should never be peened, because of the increased risk of concealing or causing crack. Also, peening is not permitted on the final pass, because it can cover a crack and interfere with visual inspection. Before peening is used on a job, engineering approval should be obtained.
I think this is above my pay grade. :soda:
It's beyond me, that's for sure. I have often heard of sand blasting a weld to relieve stress. I can see where this is some scary stuff though. I got my motor sent off yesterday to Truett & Osborn. Don't know how backed up they are so when I'll get it back, I dunno. I do have to get off my butt and get the rest of the bike ready for it though.
EASY
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on October 09, 2012, 10:36:50 AM
Exactly! I don't know exactly how that relieves stress. But when I asked Perry about it, that was the short answer.
Same principle as shot peening, I think.
Just joined the site and having a look through. I have a 49pan than has a crack in the same place, so attending needed. Whilst i am ok to do servicing and maintenance, this is outside my ability to strip down and repair. I live in Sydney Australia and need to find someone to do the work. Can anyone recommend someone down here?
Welcome aboard! You might send a PM to our member Speeding Big Twin (Eric). He's a wealth of old Harley knowledge. He's on the other side of Australia from you. But he might know someone to send you too in your area.
-Craig
Jb49pan, welcome to the forum. There's a shop called Redgrave Motorcycles in NSW and you can find their website via Google. The place has a good reputation for engine work from what I have heard over the years. One service they offer is aluminium welding but I don't know how extensive a repair they can do.
Also Google the Vintage Motorcycle Club of Australia (NSW) and ask if they can recommend someone. You may even be able to attend a club meeting, show the members your case and ask if anyone there had a similar problem and who they went to for repairs.
Another place you could contact is Redfern Motorcycle Spares. No website but phone number is apparently 9698 1678 and you could ask if they can recommend someone.
With each shop you find, show them your case and ask exactly what procedure they would follow. You could also ask if they can show you before-and-after photos regarding jobs they have done and if they guarantee their work.
If your serial number is going to be affected then check with NSW licensing authorities before you start and see what they have to say.
Eric
Craig, I've been following this thread and you're lucky to have a shop like Perry's to go to.
Did you find any original H-D stamps via the Harley shop you mentioned? If you did, I'm wondering if it's possible to liaise with that shop, and Arizona licensing authorities, and H-D, in an effort to get Harley to stamp the case. You could call Pete Simet at H-D Customer Service and ask his opinion. As you may know, Pete is an ex-motor officer so he may have an answer for you.
There are at least three different sellers of AM stamps on eBay but I have bad news for all of them regarding some of the pieces they supply. One of the main stumbling blocks is the open-top 4 offered by some vendors and it really sticks out when compared to an authentic 4 such as yours. I've even seen the AM open-top 4 used in some belly numbers and it's always easy to spot.
Eric
Eric,
I contacted Buddy Stubs Harley-Davidson in Phoenix. They couldn't help me. In the mean time I got a line on a guy who says he can restore my numbers as long as I can satisfy him that there is no funny business going on.
The upside of the numbers debacle... the state of AZ doesn't care about my motor numbers at this point. When I brought the bike into Arizona and applied for a new title, they insisted on giving me an "assigned vehicle number" since the frame was modified. This means I have a blue tag on the frame with a new serial number and that is the number that appears on my title. There is not mention of the motor number anywhere in my documents from the state. I'd like to have the number restored simply because I think a motor with no numbers is more suspicious and could be more troublesome. Of course I'm not interested in using just any set of stamps. I want stamps to be used that are correct for the year of the motor.
-Craig
Welding causes shrinking stresses. When the weld is peened it expands the weld to minimize the effects of shrinkage and breaking the weld free from the parent metal.
Ron
Ah! Thanks Ron! When you talk about the shrinkage and how peening relieves that by expanding the weld a bit it all makes sense. Great explaination.
-Craig
Quote from: War Horse on October 09, 2012, 11:38:42 AM
I've heard of peening , but never really got the whole drift, so I looked it up on various sites, great idea but scary in a way also;
Peening the weld bead stretches it and relieves the residual stresses. However, peening must be used with care. For example, a root bead should never be peened, because of the increased risk of concealing or causing crack. Also, peening is not permitted on the final pass, because it can cover a crack and interfere with visual inspection. Before peening is used on a job, engineering approval should be obtained.
I think this is above my pay grade. :soda:
Yeah , thanks Ron :hyst:
I think it was the word "shrink" that turned on the lightbulb for me. I was :scratch: trying to figure out where the stress was coming from and how expanding the weld would help. When he said "shrikage" it all became clear.
Not that kind of "shrinkage" War Horse! Next thing you know Preacher Son will be over hear chimming in and posting photos! :hyst:
Well we wouldnt want Preach showing any shrinkage :embarrassed:
I know youve probably seen it in here before, but when you run a bead of weld inside a neck race (or any internal race) the cooling shrinkage of the weld is what causes the race to literaly fall out, same thing is happening on a standard weld, which in turn deforms the metal around it. I've never done this type of peening and is probably better left to the experienced tradesman.
I've actually used the trick of running a bead around a race to make it fall out. You'd think I would have understood it already. But sometimes I'm a bit thick and I have to be hit over the head.
-Craig
It's really hard to believe this is the same case shown in the previous photos.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/TMShTb18r8ZfCsrT7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZVvpPQDTVjkxJaNm9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/cP7dTKpdMj1t2bV5A)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/cDoayTe79kW1scx19)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/eu3HsXmzhhUdCKcW9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/CzcQjd2dfvGdche99)
Wow, that is well done.
FANTASTIC work there!
EASY
Absolutely amazing what can be done with these old cases in the right hands. You'll have that ol' pan back in the breeze in short order now Craig ! Have you decided what you are going to do about the blank number boss ? ( I realize with the state assigned number that the original numbers don't really matter to you anymore...just curious is all.)
Impressive work, congratulation to the artisan doing the repair.
I'm pleased with the way this is going. It was hard to imagine how this case was going to look two weeks ago. As Ajayrk said, it's the work of an artist (Perry Kime at Flo Headworks) at this point.
twincamzz, I'm going to have the numbers restamped. I found a shop that will do that using the correct stamps for 1949. I've got tons of documentation to establish a paper trail if it ever comes to that. I think I'd be more likely to attract attention with an unstamped number boss.
-Craig
Quote from: Ajayrk on October 27, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
Impressive work, congratulation to the artisan doing the repair.
Well yeah, but is he capable of tapping the timing hole?LOL. That is some serious "holy s*&%" craftsmanship there. Give the dude some props and post his info in the indy shops section or something so you don't get hit with a ton of requests for it.
Good luck with the rest of the rebuild.
Quote from: 96flhpi on October 27, 2012, 09:18:46 AM
Quote from: Ajayrk on October 27, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
Impressive work, congratulation to the artisan doing the repair.
Well yeah, but is he capable of tapping the timing hole?LOL. ...
:hyst: I trust he can handle that. :teeth:
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on October 27, 2012, 08:42:49 AM
I'm pleased with the way this is going. It was hard to imagine how this case was going to look two weeks ago. As Ajayrk said, it's the work of an artist (Perry Kime at Flo Headworks) at this point.
twincamzz, I'm going to have the numbers restamped. I found a shop that will do that using the correct stamps for 1949. I've got tons of documentation to establish a paper trail if it ever comes to that. I think I'd be more likely to attract attention with an unstamped number boss.
-Craig
I agree with you Craig...leaving the VIN boss unstamped (
or incorrectly stamped) would set off a bunch of red flags !
:up: Looking good.
Guys,
I did a lot of research around the legality of obliterating and restamping VIN numbers because of this situation. It is widely said that it is illegal to mess with numbers for any reason. In fact I was mistakenly of the same belief and posted it above. But after locating the law (Title 18, Section 511) and reading through it I discovered that it is legal to obliterate
and restore numbers for the purpose of repair and as long as the vehicle in question is not stolen. I'll post the law below so anyone who wants to read it can. I've bolded some points that I think make it clear this is all legal.
First, here is a statement I found on the Justice Departments web site:
QuoteSection 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984).
Now the complete text of the law (it's not that long):
(a) A person who - (1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle
or motor vehicle part; or (2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not
more than 5 years, or both. (b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a
person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen). (2) The
persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are - (A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who
complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part; (B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair; (C) a person who restores or replaces an identification
number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and (D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers
with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of
the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by - (i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or (iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention
Act. (c) As used in this section, the term - (1) "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of
identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49; (2) "motor vehicle" has the meaning given that term in section 32101
of title 49; (3) "motor vehicle demolisher" means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is
engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor
vehicle or a motor vehicle part; (4) "motor vehicle scrap processor" means a person - (A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling; (B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and (C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling; but such term does not include any
activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor
vehicle part. (d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term "tampers with" includes covering a program decal or device affixed
to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
[/pre]
I underlined part of paragraph 2 subsection C which talks about restoring number in accordance with state law. I checked the Arizona Revised Statutes. There is one statute that talks about obliteration/modifiction/restoration of VIN numbers (13-4702). It specifically gives exceptions to the limitations on obliteration/modifiction/restoration of VIN numbers as follows:
Quote
B. This section does not apply to law enforcement authorities and lawful owners acting in good faith, towing companies or scrap processors, licensed automotive recyclers and other businesses acting in good faith and in the normal course of business and in conformance with all applicable laws.
So as far as the state of Arizona and the Federal Government is concerned, I'm not worried about any of this activity.
Sorry for the long post. But since early on in the thread we had been talking about the legal issues I thought I'd post what I had learned about it and clear up any misunderstandings.
-Craig
I'm very glad that there is a law that will protect you and the guy who will restore your numbers. If I were you, I'd keep a copy of that law with your bike and registration papers, to keep any of the LEO's satisfied that everything is on the up and up. It's probably nothing that you will ever have to deal with but for the off chance, it's good to have your paper trail handy.
We have a DPS Supervisor in our area who is extremely knowledgeable in Harley numbers. He and I have talked many times about different bikes, numbers, mismatches and so on. He's a real stickler about legal bikes, handlebars and turn signals. I've loaned him my Palmers guide and some other manuals, a couple of times when he had to check on stuff to make sure a bike is legit. When there is an up-date to motorcycle laws, he usually drops by with a copy for me. Now that we are an inspection station also, we see a LOT of troopers. (Never did want to inspect bikes, we're all crooked, you know)
EASY
Good to hear about the VIN number deal. I have talked to other folks that have done some pretty tedious restorations and they restamped their legit numbers accordingly. Just did not know how it worked from state to state. That's why I figured it would not hurt to ask around. Oh, the case repair looks pristine!!
Craig, thanks for posting the exact legal wording. It's good to see a section of law that includes some common sense.
Eric
The motor numbers have been restored...
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/CZ8mSDvpbcwDjEk77)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/MGoeAHFNnQxknfn56)
Thats sweet ! :up:
Whats up with the 'b' at the end ? I dont recall ever seeing that before, of course my memory is slightly foggy now a days :scratch:
Quote from: War Horse on November 05, 2012, 01:25:02 PM
Thats sweet ! :up:
Whats up with the 'b' at the end ? I dont recall ever seeing that before, of course my memory is slightly foggy now a days :scratch:
Yeah, and what the hell year was "194-upsidedown-b" :hyst:
Seriously, not knowing these girls, how original do the #'s look.
Looks good. You'll be glad you re-stamped.
I never saw a letter at the end either.
Also, are there threads in the timing hole? Pictures may be deceptive, they don't call me deadeye for nothing. :hyst:
:hyst: the "b" is a 6. That's the correct shaped stamp ... a 6 with a straight back. I think the brain makes it look like a "b" because of the spacing. Look at the original stamp on page 3 of this thread and you'll see it's the same. :teeth:
When you examine real close, the stamps are not 100% identical to the original. The top of the "1" for example looks a little different. And the "6" does look a bit more like a "b".
Oh... and no, the timing hole is not quiet complete yet. A bit more work to do there.
-Craig
Ok so, manufactured 10 month, 226th (for that month?) build of 1949. I dont recall seeing more than 4 numbers after the model designation before. Educate me :teeth:
There are a lot of 5 digit panheads out there. The numbers following the "FL" are called the sequence #'s and they started with 1001 for each model year. As each bike rolled through the factory it got a unique sequence #. The sequence #'s should not repeat for any panhead model (FL, EL, etc.) from what I understand. So my sequence # is 10226. That means it was the 9225th panhead to go through the factory that year (1949). There were something around 12,700 panheads built in 1949 (comprised of EL (solo and sidecar), FL (solo and sidecar), ELP, FLP) so my sequence # is easily in that range.
-Craig
Looks good :up:
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/cid_BD89D9B8-E725-47D4-9370-464644F58F28.jpg)
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/F8342178-DB89-48A9-93D2-5E298A8E95E9-117-00000000A9DEF17D.jpg)
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/IMG_47851.jpg)
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/16F3FB9C-AE35-40A4-907F-EFEBDDE678AC-2265-000002F3E05340F8.jpg)
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/B682D5A8-5825-49AB-93A8-18A10C1C5550-241-000000BB8840BE7B.jpg)
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/2012%20-%20Cracked%20Motor%20Case/328ED35E-E16A-4AF9-BCA0-FEE55C079D6B-241-000000BB7DC7675B.jpg)
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on November 05, 2012, 02:17:07 PM
Oh... and no, the timing hole is not quiet complete yet. A bit more work to do there.
-Craig
See, I told you he couldn't handle that part :wink:.
Lookin good. If she were my bike it would have driven me nuts to not have it stamped. Now bake in some fingerprints for a little patina and you're good to go. :up:
YUP Lookin real good there! How much longer you think you have to wait to get her back running?
EASY
Looks good . I couldn't handle it with out numbers also .
Just ride her & the patina will come back . Hell, it doesn't take long to get them dirty, he should bake some finger prints on upon assembly.
simply amazing what the right hands can do with these old machines. Good to see another piece of history saved. Good job Craig ! :chop:
Looks great Craig! A Curly would say: "Poifect!!"
Blazin'
(tom)
:up: Looks good Craig! Nice to see that he didn't use a straight edge along the bottom. Gives it that "Factory" look.
So.... Craig, how is the project coming along? Anxious to see new pics. :pop:
I'm still waiting for the motor to be buttoned up. Nothing new to report. I'll post up anything new that seems interesting.
-Craig
COOL. i have a "pink slip" for those numbers.
i will by your place to pick up "my" bike when you finish it.
but yeah, on old stuff with a guy looking like you do, i see no problems.
as you know, i do restores on old euro bikes.
i have very few papers. hell, most back then did not have any. (race and dirt stuff)
a lot of it is how you look and deal with LEO.
yeah, officer, i stole this 1949 whatever. in maybe 1956?
i have been stopped out in desert with ol rickman. ranger just said he wanted to drool over it close up.
i offered up what paper i had. (written bill of sale)
he shrugged it off.
would do more of a check with a newer bike with a spray can paint job.
his very words
also my 1974 iron head, bought new, i have had 0 number check.
but then again i dont look like a iron theif.
Yeah, I don't expect to ever have any hassles. But I've got all the paperwork if I do. I'm not the least bit worried.
It's funny Gary. You know how the Sheriff's dept is always patrolling the road out to Tortilla Flat. The profile of my bike just makes them ignore me. They are out there looking for the guys on the sport bikes, not the guys on choppers. I've passed them at 2x the speed limit and I just get a wave (which I always return in kind). Of course if I see them coming I'll slow to a reasonable pace. But you know how that road is. You're on top of on coming traffic before you know who they are in most cases. It helps not to look like you're going 3x the legal speed. LOL
-Craig
yep, their thinking is that ol thing cant go fast/handle. LOL..
have seen you bend it around that road. that and fact you ride it more than anyone other than me, get to know the road.
for years i took sporty to work and back 5 times a week.
i knew when a pebble was moved.
all the cops knew me and bike cause i worked on cop boats.
i got away with way fast rideing. they also knew i passed safely and did not put self or others in danger.
sooo, fast forward. riding superglide i still dont get a glance.
and sometimes i ride "spirited". havent worked up there a while and the new crew dont know bike...
when i take buell up there they eyeballling me good. they know i speeding. i also know of the 4 places they can be off side and radar.
i do pass over double yellow when safe. its the tickett they looking for.
but swoop so fast its over before the car driver kows he been passed.
if buell was red i would have tickett already..lol
since it yellow its not a "fast" one.
its all in the presentation.
It's -15 here and I'm doing my best Homer Simpson imitation: "Hummmm, Tortilla Flats Road"!! Been a while since I rode my Springer down that road - always great.
Blazin'
LOL ... its apache trail, but yeah, minus anything too XXXXXX cold.
havent even got jackets out yet.
spent turkey day up in prescott area. was 10 degrees cooler up in mountains, 70. was 82 at home.
had to put on a sweater to ride horse.
oh poor me....
i know others have said this,, but WOW,, that guy is an amazing welder!!!! :beer:
Machine work is finished up on the cases. After all that welding the cylinder surface had to be milled flat.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/RAWySZZnsoVGvuVD7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/g2DQniUwbZT9W9CE8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/UyWLmS2NWvnewY9H8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/8nfRvwzp3JZUcW6d6)
The timing plug hole now has an insert.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/v848HAaUt4YZyZ3B8)
Motor mounts are nice and flat.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/pGv4kycziEAdDBK16)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/TRqJaYTkJuEAPyYW9)
Thanks for posting an update Craig...nothin' like Pan porn in the morning to get the day started off right !!
Very Very nice, impeccable work there. :up:
Better get her back together, your missing all the good riding weather.
Awwww Man, that is sooo sweet looking! My Betsie is put back together finally but now I gotta wait on my cam and lifters, new pipes and a battery...
EASY
Deye76... I'm dyin' here! The weather is just outstanding right now. I'll just keep :scoot: for now. :hyst:
EASY, Dang! You've made fast work of the rebuild of Betsie. If I had the knowledge and machine tools in my garage I'd be plowing through this. But this repair had to be left to people with a lot more skills than I have. And I'm ok with letting them work in their time.
Yesterday when they went to surface the thrust face on the bearing race in the left side case, they discovered these cracks. I'm glad these guys are thorough. Not hard to fix with everything already torn down but sure would have been a pain if it had been overlooked.
Also, looks like the rear cylinder, left rear stud hole needs an insert to bring it up to par.
-Craig
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/kYVfybdnzp1z3F1N6)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/N6oXUJevBjt7K4Xj6)
You ain't real far behind me! I didn't get the 5 speed set up yet, too much money involved to make it work right now. So I put the old 4 speed back in. 5 speed and belt final have time.... Not sweating the dual plugs yet either, holes are there with sparkplugs in em, but coils cost money too. I think I'll be real happy with the Roadking front end though. Ol Betsie has a Toyrun to lead in about 10 days! I can't challenge people to buy more toys than me, if I ain't pullin my trailer to haul them all!
EASY
Haven't updated this thread in too long! I drove from Phoenix to Oceano, CA today to pickup the finished motor. I'll get it in the morning and then head back to Phoenix tomorrow. Holy cow! What a mess getting across Los Angeles. 200 miles of heavy rush hour traffic starting in Palm Springs and not letting up until I was past Santa Barbara. I stopped in at Buchanan Spokes and dropped off a pair of Akront aluminum rims to be punched for use with my star hubs. Figured I'd save the $40 in shipping to send them and only pay the return shipping. They were less than 2 miles off my route in Azusa, CA.
I'll post some photos of the motor in the next day or so.
-Craig
Alright!!! Here we go. Been waiting to see this. :pop:
:chop: :pop:
Well you were right Craig, I got mine back up and running before you did. She's running fantastic too. I can't wait til spring when I can peal the boat sail off and really feel the power she got. I doubt I'll get the Pan back up and going for a couple of years though. I did score some really nice sheet metal, though.
We're all waiting for the picture show.....
EASY
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on January 03, 2013, 06:18:57 PM
...I'll post some photos of the motor in the next day or so.
-Craig
:wtf: I wan'na see pics of you riding that Vespa through LA traffic with that pan strapped on the back! :scoot: :hyst: :hyst:
LOL that would be a frightful photo! Holy crap! Big accident on the 101 near Azusa had me crawling in traffic for over 2 hours to cover 10 miles. LA traffic is crazy! Made it home at 1:30am this morning. Below is the only photo I've got so far. Just a phone camera shot of the motor loaded into the back of a rented SUV. The motor is sitting on an engine stand that is bolted to a 30"x30" piece of 3/4" plywood. Nice stable ride all the way back to Phoenix.
-Craig
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uk1nYQuMCBy8ACTq8)
Here are some proper photos w/ different angles...
Both front and rear heads have a number of small (non structural) cracks between the oil return gallies and the outside of the head. This leads to a real freakin' mess. You can't get in there to weld up the cracks because they are buried deep between the fins on the heads. So instead we went to outside oil return lines. It's a simple modification. You plug the return oil galley and come in from the side with a hole that you can thread a hose connection fitting into. On the back of the motor case (right side) just inboard of the oil pump you make a similar hole and connect the hoses.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qjhmpBbXBtuzc8v8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/H6rr6dUPyf7wNjzz9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/dRy7ED6JQisqg5Aj8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/JLa1BzYMQw1tTipw9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/pY1hxQrcM6z5RHN67)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/QVdPA3FgDS3zwnhs7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/VSKAjBncs1dNGYjb9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/DZYjveuz3iZnUjMJ9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/NqYuQEaVdiz7xWkP6)
Perry ported the intake manifold. This pattern finish flows better then a smooth polished finish in his experience.
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/7isqHo8PFszVEmXB7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/e9JNqvt7MoxEtz5N8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/srGAKpYZUUwReR1i8)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Sukxotc7sA2Ys9439)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/r3GvPnRcnvVYRW5r9)
That is one good looking motor Craig! Is it in the frame and running yet? LOL
EASY
" went to outside oil return lines. It's a simple modification. You plug the return oil galley and come in from the side with a hole that you can thread a hose connection fitting into. On the back of the motor case (right side) just inboard of the oil pump you make a similar hole and connect the hoses."
You'll like that :up:. A good friend of mine, engine builder, was doing that to many a Pan in the 70's & 80's. Believe it or not it will run cooler.
That motor looks soooo good. I have Pan envy. Enjoy.
Not running yet Easy. I decided on a couple of last minute changes that I'll do while I have things apart here. LOL It's always something.
Deye76, yes it should help cool the oil a little. That's one of the reasons I went to outside oil supply lines 8 years ago. If you can keep the oil from running up/down the gallies in the cylinder, it won't absorb so much heat while being deliver and returned from the head. Every little bit helps when I'm running around in 110F ambient air temps. :teeth:
-Craig
Very nice Craig, bet you're real happy to have it home again.
Engine looks great Craig. Can you tell me how you tighten those nuts for the oil drain lines on the left side of the heads? It's deep down between the fins and I have similar set-up. Special wrench?
ricochet
Ricochet,
For the fitting that screws directly into the head, there is enough space to get a thin wall socket over it. I use a 1/4" drive deep socket since those tend to be thinner than the same size socket for a 3/8" drive.
For the fitting on the end of the hose, I use a 7/16" open end wrench. I can't get it exactly square over the nut, but I still get plenty of bite to tighten it up and not mar things up.
-Craig
Made some progress on getting the bike reassembled over the weekend. Cold temps in the 20's overnight have the garage nice and cool. Unlike the summer it's in the 50's in the garage instead of 105+. :hyst:
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/MzuCeGQrtS3RXRtc7)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/uD9huwCzevVsqnuL9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/39prqnPWDeyddKvF9)
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZcgRVgmnaoS9PqQL6)
Nice work Craig ! Won't be long & the vespa will be gathering dust in the corner :up:
I'm getting real close to firing it up. Last night I laced up the rear wheel with a new Akront aluminum rim. Today I mounted the tire, installed the wheel, rebuilt the carb, installed the ignition and exhaust and installed the right side controls. I also pulled the front wheel, removed tire and removed the old rim and spokes from the hub. Cleaned up the hub so it's ready for a new Akront aluminum rim. I'll lace up and true the rim after dinner. After I mount the tire and wheel it will be time to give it a go!
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/qYYKi5RwohA24PTk7)
Laced up the front wheel after having some dinner.
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/caschnd1/88CE1A75-D2F8-4583-AFD5-40B8BC2E4197-991-0000016AA4D9375F.jpg)
Looking good Craig!
EASY
It's alive! Gave it a few primer kicks, switch on the ignition and it started on the second kick. Smoked a bit for the first couple minutes, but I suspect that was just prelube burning off. Felt good to pull out of the driveway and head down the street.
:chop:
Do a lap for me Craig :up:. 17 degrees here and the wind is whipping.
Glad you're back up again!
FirstStartAfterRebuild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_OwieQsj0w#ws)
Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on January 20, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
FirstStartAfterRebuild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_OwieQsj0w#ws)
Thanks for the vid!! :up:
Probably out riding right now. You lucky SOB.
HELL YES! Sweet!
EASY
:up: Sounds tight, and quiet too. :chop:
Nice vid and thanks for sharing all these works!
Hi Craig,
Is that the same blue color you had before? I noticed the different paint scheme but am wondering about the blue. It looks absolutely awesome.
ricochet
Ricochet,
Thanks. I'm liking this color a lot better then the previous blue. The paint was redone fall 2011 prior to the crack in the motor case showing up. It's a GM color called Aqua Blue Metallic (WA 638R).
Here is the old and new blue in similar lighting...
Old...
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/UxGgs7LHwxj9H5Gz5)
New...
Photo Link (https://photos.app.goo.gl/iRdFRGruLEwW86hv7)
Great job!!!....
Craig: Looks good and sounds great! Yea, I wish I still had my '62. :emsad: But, but, but, that front hub, it isn't chromed??
LOL - :hyst: Mine wasn't either.
Blazin'
Been following this thread Craig. Tough luck about the crack but one mighty fine repair.
The ol' scooter is looking great and I like the new paint job!
Chappy
Chappy! Dang good to see you still check in here.
Been riding the panhead for about two months since the repair was finished. So nice to have her back again. It's 90F and sunny today. What happened to spring? Hasn't officially started yet and it's feeling like summers here.
-Craig
I check in a bit just don't always post. I always enjoy looking at what all of you do to keep your ol' iron on the road!
I realized that when Photobucket went to a "Pay-Per-View" model, all the photos in this thread were lost :(
Today, I went through the thread and restored as many of the photos as I could find. There are a few that I don't have copies of anymore.
-Craig