:rtfb: Ok. I admit it. I f-ed up and didn't refresh myself by reading the shop manual. I was installing new handlebars which required a longer hose from the reservoir to the brakes. It was also time for new fluid, only after all is done I read the manual and find that the Dot 5.1 I installed is not to be used (2002 RK). Use only Dot 5. The two are not compatible. :oops: So, what's the best way to flush out the Dot 5.1 and replace it with straight Dot 5? Help!!!! :emoGroan:
Well obviously a disassembly and cleaning would be the best way to go, but if you don't want to do all this, here is what I would do. Get a syringe and suck all the 5.1 you can out of the MC reservoir. Take one of the calipers apart and using small c-clamps, loosen the bleeder screws and press the piston(s) inward as far as they will go. Do the same for the other side. This should get most of the 5.1 out except for the hoses. Then fill the MC reservoir, close off the bleeder(s) on one caliper and pump new fluid through till it emerges. Close those bleeders and repeat the process on the other caliper. Now depending on your degree of perfection/paranoia, repeat the entire procedure...but if it were me I would try out the brakes (carefully) for a week or so before doing it all over again. Good luck, and if you are not comfortable with this, take it all apart and clean and flush, but I bet you will be fine doing it like this. One caveat though, I cannot speak from experience on this one.
Quote from: smoserx1 on March 14, 2022, 03:54:48 PMWell obviously a disassembly and cleaning would be the best way to go, but if you don't want to do all this, here is what I would do. Get a syringe and suck all the 5.1 you can out of the MC reservoir. Take one of the calipers apart and using small c-clamps, loosen the bleeder screws and press the piston(s) inward as far as they will go. Do the same for the other side. This should get most of the 5.1 out except for the hoses. Then fill the MC reservoir, close off the bleeder(s) on one caliper and pump new fluid through till it emerges. Close those bleeders and repeat the process on the other caliper. Now depending on your degree of perfection/paranoia, repeat the entire procedure...but if it were me I would try out the brakes (carefully) for a week or so before doing it all over again. Good luck, and if you are not comfortable with this, take it all apart and clean and flush, but I bet you will be fine doing it like this. One caveat though, I cannot speak from experience on this one.
That is how I would do it (and did do it when I put dot4 in my dot5 system).
I run dot 5 in all. Cant hurt i hope?
Quote from: JSD on March 14, 2022, 06:44:19 PMI run dot 5 in all. Cant hurt i hope?
Not if that is what it is supposed to be used.
Dang. Thanks smoserx1 and others. I really did F-up. One more question. I've always used alcohol to clean up brake fluid. Is that the cleaner for this job? Damn, double damn.
No chemist here but all of the brake fluids are glycol based except for dot 5 which is silicone. Glycols are in the alcohol family (like antifreeze) and they mix with water so alcohol is good for cleaning them up. Silicone (dot 5) is an oil, and it won't mix with water (and thus won't mix with any other brake fluid either). If you have elected to take things apart and try to get every bit of the 5.1 out I don't believe I would use alcohol to clean that if you are planning to replace with dot 5. Maybe just wipe out real good with cloths or paper towels, but make sure everything is dry. You didn't mention just flushing everything and going forward with 5.1. that will mix with all the others except dot 5. Somebody might jump in and say that the internal parts like hoses and seals are are fluid sensitive and designed for a certain type fluid but I have a feeling that is largely a myth. How is Greensboro doing? I have a part time remote job there and the Triad used to be home for me.
Quote from: Ironpig9 on March 15, 2022, 12:23:07 AMDang. Thanks smoserx1 and others. I really did F-up.
Don't beat yourself up too bad. You're not the first to do this, like I said, I've done it too. You didn't break anything that is expensive to replace, you didn't crash, you caught it before any real damage happened. A couple hours added to your project and a bottle of brake fluid is about all it cost, no big losses.
Good luck!
Suck out the 5.1 like mentioned, flush and bleed, ride for a few hundred miles, bleed it a few more times and might as well do the rear brake at the same time. Ride and don't worry about it. :chop:
Brakes are the most important on a motorcycle that said. I would disassemble the complete brake system wash it out all parts with lines install what needs to be replaced. Then you won't have to worry about the next time you have to stop.
I ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5 Rubber O rings swelled up and Pedal was slow to return . Thought I was getting a real super deal with that can at half price . Took me a while to figure out What the hell it's silicone dumb ass not synthetic.
Quote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5
DOT 5 is DOT 5, no matter what formula they use to make the fluid.
It must meet the same specs and be compatible.
Quote from: Dan89flstc on April 07, 2022, 05:15:21 AMQuote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5
DOT 5 is DOT 5, no matter what formula they use to make the fluid.
It must meet the same specs and be compatible.
Dot 5 and Dot 5.1 are not compatible.
I switched the shovel to dot 5 when I installed GMA components, later I installed a 2000 and up front end with 2005 dual calipers (used) and an 07 RK front rim. I cleaned out all the old brake parts with denatured alcohol and went in with Dot 5. It's been more than a few years now. No issues.
Quote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5 Rubber O rings swelled up and Pedal was slow to return . Thought I was getting a real super deal with that can at half price...
Could you give us more details about the ,,Synthetic Dot 5" you used?
Karl
Quote from: Karl H. on April 10, 2022, 09:48:24 PMQuote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5 Rubber O rings swelled up and Pedal was slow to return . Thought I was getting a real super deal with that can at half price...
Could you give us more details about the ,,Synthetic Dot 5" you used?
Karl
According to the Google, dot5 is synthetic based, dot5.1 is glycol based.
Quote from: Karl H. on April 10, 2022, 09:48:24 PMCould you give us more details about the ,,Synthetic Dot 5" you used?
Karl
Just a guess he grabbed 5.1 instead of 5.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 11, 2022, 04:19:38 AMAccording to the Google, dot5 is synthetic based, dot5.1 is glycol based.
Did you read silicone or synthetic based?
DOT 5 is silicone based.
Quote from: cheech on April 11, 2022, 07:27:32 AMQuote from: Hossamania on April 11, 2022, 04:19:38 AMAccording to the Google, dot5 is synthetic based, dot5.1 is glycol based.
Did you read silicone or synthetic based?
DOT 5 is silicone based.
Nope, that would require I pay attention, according to my wife, I do not. Or something like that, I wasn't really paying attention to her.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 11, 2022, 07:58:44 AMNope, that would require I pay attention, according to my wife, I do not. Or something like that, I wasn't really paying attention to her.
THAT'S GOOD :hyst:
Quote from: Hossamania on April 11, 2022, 04:19:38 AMQuote from: Karl H. on April 10, 2022, 09:48:24 PMQuote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5 Rubber O rings swelled up and Pedal was slow to return . Thought I was getting a real super deal with that can at half price...
Could you give us more details about the ,,Synthetic Dot 5" you used?
Karl
According to the Google, dot5 is synthetic based, dot5.1 is glycol based.
I can't recall all the details as it's been 10yrs or more . Just the syn dot5 did ruin the Master cylinder. The brake Worked fine before I changed fluid.
Quote from: Coyote on April 07, 2022, 06:09:29 AMQuote from: Dan89flstc on April 07, 2022, 05:15:21 AMQuote from: hogpipes1 on March 20, 2022, 10:17:15 PMI ruined a master cylinder Using Synthetic Dot 5 Instead of Silicone Dot 5
DOT 5 is DOT 5, no matter what formula they use to make the fluid.
It must meet the same specs and be compatible.
Dot 5 and Dot 5.1 are not compatible.
I didn`t say DOT5.1...
I said DOT 5 is DOT 5, no matter what formula they use to make the fluid.....
I'd just run a 1/2 a bottle of Dot5 through each end of it, then ride it for a couple of hundred miles and repeat.
Pump it through with the levers, that will clear the other fluid from the master better than suck bleeding it.
And even though you lose the master cylinder prime, it would probably be best to drain it first. Then take the calipers loose and tip them over to get the 5.1 out of them. I'm not sure if those two fluids will mix, but if they will, draining will limit it some.
What yr did HD start using Dot 5.1? My bike is a 2000 Using silicone dot5 .LIke I said it's been yrs sense I grab that can of syn.Just could not get the brain to get off the syn oil,syn this and that. Ha should of had tits on my mind,then I could of had a silicone thought. In any event it swelled the O rings and rubber cup . And I am sure it was not 5.1 syn. That would of snapped me back into reality.knowing only to use sil-5 .Just was not my day to get a can of fluid.
Quote from: hogpipes1 on May 07, 2022, 05:23:10 AMWhat yr did HD start using Dot 5.1? My bike is a 2000 Using silicone dot5 .LIke I said it's been yrs sense I grab that can of syn.Just could not get the brain to get off the syn oil,syn this and that. Ha should of had tits on my mind,then I could of had a silicone thought. In any event it swelled the O rings and rubber cup . And I am sure it was not 5.1 syn. That would of snapped me back into reality.knowing only to use sil-5 .Just was not my day to get a can of fluid.
I don't believe HD ever used dot 5.1
My 2000 also used dot 5
My newer bikes use dot 4
Dot 4 and dot 5 are NOT compatible.
Dot 4 and dot 5.1 are.
Only advantage using dot 5.1 as a replacement for dot 4 is a higher boiling point, probably not a factor for non-racers. Dot 5.1 is a little more hydroscopic than dot 4.
Stick with the manufactures recommendations.
Quote from: hogpipes1 on May 07, 2022, 05:23:10 AMWhat yr did HD start using Dot 5.1? My bike is a 2000 Using silicone dot5 .LIke I said it's been yrs sense I grab that can of syn.Just could not get the brain to get off the syn oil,syn this and that. Ha should of had tits on my mind,then I could of had a silicone thought. In any event it swelled the O rings and rubber cup . And I am sure it was not 5.1 syn. That would of snapped me back into reality.knowing only to use sil-5 .Just was not my day to get a can of fluid.
You guys need to stop using the term "synthetic" and start using the terms "silicone based" or "glycol based". Just don't mix the two.
Went out to auto parts store yesterday to pick up some dot 5. First two stores don't have any. Only 3 and 4. Go then to third store. Walk in the door "can I help you", "I need dot 5 brake fluid". He walks me over to the brake fluids. Side by side they have dot 5 and 5.1. Hands me one of each. Young guy, probably new on the job. I tried to explain to him the difference. And told him don't ever mix them. You'll ruin someone's day. Not 100% sure he got it
Can you post a picture of the synthetic dot5 container?
Quote from: Hossamania on May 07, 2022, 04:49:06 PMCan you post a picture of the synthetic dot5 container?
All dot5 is synthetic. :doh:
Quote from: Coyote on May 07, 2022, 04:55:23 PMQuote from: Hossamania on May 07, 2022, 04:49:06 PMCan you post a picture of the synthetic dot5 container?
All dot5 is synthetic. :doh:
So it is silicone based and synthetic? Ok then. I'm easily confused
All brake fluid is synthetic. Although the industry generally only refers to silicone fluids as so. The term is misused.
:hug: Thanks all. Problem fixed and brakes are firm and steady.
Quote from: Ironpig9 on May 27, 2022, 05:59:15 PM:hug: Thanks all. Problem fixed and brakes are firm and steady.
Good to hear...
Rob
I realize that the OP solved his problem. But thought I'd share what I've learned from a brake expert.
Yes, alcohol will cut DOT 3 and 4 fluids which are glycol based. But it is not recommended that you use anything other than the fluid specified for the system in the system or to clean its components. Before I knew this, I cleaned a DOT 4 system on a Harley because the moron that owned the bike before me used motor oil in the brakes. So, I was forced to degrease the entire system first using a solvent, then flush after with alcohol and finally install the correct fluid. But in my case, all new seals were installed AFTER the cleaning process.
My personal opinion is that calling it DOT 5.1 instead of DOT 6 was a mistake. I would guess that every kid that grew up with computers will think that DOT 5.1 is simply an improvement to DOT 5. Somebody should get a arse-kicking for that decision. It was probably the DOT. Another example of your tax dollars at rest.
My personal experience with using DOT 5 in systems designed for DOT 3 or 4 has been that if you properly flush the system out, the 5 will work in the system designed for 3 or 4. I never ran into problems with swelled or deteriorated seals. This is based upon experience with older Corvettes. It was common practice to upgrade to DOT 5 due to the belief at the time that this would prevent caliper corrosion. But as I'm sure we all now know, moisture gets into both systems. With glycol based, it gets absorbed into the fluid. With silicone based it collects in places like the calipers.
If you search on the web for info on what happens when you mix silcone and glycol fluids, you get terms like "risk of total brake failure". I wonder how accurate that statement is. Probably written by lawyers and not engineers. But, when you think about the importance of reliable brakes, If I'd put 5.1 in a 5 system, I'd be tearing apart calipers and MCs and flushing lines as we speak. No regrets.
Quote from: snakeoil on June 01, 2022, 03:30:28 PMIf you search on the web for info on what happens when you mix silcone and glycol fluids, you get terms like "risk of total brake failure". I wonder how accurate that statement is. Probably written by lawyers and not engineers.
If you mix DOT 4 and DOT 5, you will have a gummed up mess, and I guarantee the pistons in the calipers will get stuck (don`t ask...).
But if you think it is Lawyer BS, go ahead and mix them up and let us know what the results are.