I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
The comp kit was revised sometime ago and should be OK now. It is stock on the 2011 FHLTs. Go figure
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
Thanks had no idea the se comp had any updates. Will use Formula+ just for the safety side of things. Again Thanks Doc
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2010, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
Just an update on the added oil grooves in the comp. After 9k there is no red residue on the sprocket from fretting in the bore, which is typical for these things. The bore now had oil in it for the first time of it's life. Previous SE comp disassembly was always bone dry. Actually this is the second SE comp since the first one ate the bore up. This one should have a happy life.
Ron
Ron ,do you have a picture of the holes that were drilled .
I would like to see what you have done to yours also. I have 5,000 miles on the SE Compensater now with no problems so far and I am useing the Formula+ primary oil. If I need to back in there and see a problem I would like to fix it as you have. Thanks Doc
Quote from: rbabos on December 01, 2010, 07:22:33 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2010, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
Just an update on the added oil grooves in the comp. After 9k there is no red residue on the sprocket from fretting in the bore, which is typical for these things. The bore now had oil in it for the first time of it's life. Previous SE comp disassembly was always bone dry. Actually this is the second SE comp since the first one ate the bore up. This one should have a happy life.
Ron
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/bvail/pichers1.jpg)
I did have a pic last spring when I did it. Sent it to a fellow member and I think he lost it. It might be on one of the cameras still and if I can find it I'll post it. Nothing special about it. 3 radiused grooves inline with the c/l of the spokes. 3/16" wide x 1/8" deep, nominal. This is done on the face that sits against the extension. The sprial grooved composite washer is retained on the other end as it comes.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on December 02, 2010, 01:34:25 PM
I did have a pic last spring when I did it. Sent it to a fellow member and I think he lost it. It might be on one of the cameras still and if I can find it I'll post it. Nothing special about it. 3 radiused grooves inline with the c/l of the spokes. 3/16" wide x 1/8" deep, nominal. This is done on the face that sits against the extension. The sprial grooved composite washer is retained on the other end as it comes.
Ron
So you grooved the side of the compensator sprocket thrust face that faces the motor (side opposite the thrust washer)... And the grooves were straight in line with the spokes...allowing lubrication to reach the bearing journal of the shaft extension....which lubricates the bearing journal o.d. where it rides within the compensator sprocket i.d. ...
Correct?
Quote from: Sc00ter on December 02, 2010, 03:18:01 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 02, 2010, 01:34:25 PM
I did have a pic last spring when I did it. Sent it to a fellow member and I think he lost it. It might be on one of the cameras still and if I can find it I'll post it. Nothing special about it. 3 radiused grooves inline with the c/l of the spokes. 3/16" wide x 1/8" deep, nominal. This is done on the face that sits against the extension. The sprial grooved composite washer is retained on the other end as it comes.
Ron
So you grooved the side of the compensator sprocket thrust face that faces the motor (side opposite the thrust washer)... And the grooves were straight in line with the spokes...allowing lubrication to reach the bearing journal of the shaft extension....which lubricates the bearing journal o.d. where it rides within the compensator sprocket i.d. ...
Correct?
That is correct.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on December 02, 2010, 03:50:28 PM
Quote from: Sc00ter on December 02, 2010, 03:18:01 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 02, 2010, 01:34:25 PM
I did have a pic last spring when I did it. Sent it to a fellow member and I think he lost it. It might be on one of the cameras still and if I can find it I'll post it. Nothing special about it. 3 radiused grooves inline with the c/l of the spokes. 3/16" wide x 1/8" deep, nominal. This is done on the face that sits against the extension. The sprial grooved composite washer is retained on the other end as it comes.
Ron
So you grooved the side of the compensator sprocket thrust face that faces the motor (side opposite the thrust washer)... And the grooves were straight in line with the spokes...allowing lubrication to reach the bearing journal of the shaft extension....which lubricates the bearing journal o.d. where it rides within the compensator sprocket i.d. ...
Correct?
That is correct.
Ron
Did you mill the slots? Dremel? High speed cutting wheel?
ScOOter: I used a dremel with a stone and guide plates to keep it on track.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2010, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
So are you saying that ATF will tear up an SE compensator?
Quote from: les on December 02, 2010, 05:18:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2010, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
So are you saying that ATF will tear up an SE compensator?
Now this is my view only, with some obserations on how the SE comp behaved when run with atf. I feel while there is adiquate lube for the chain, bearings in the primary as well as cooling the clutch well it sadly lacks enough lube to protect the ramps of the cam and the spokes of the comp sprocket. The original SE comp I had in with the 96 had quite a few miles on it and was in decent shape when installed back into the 113 engine. Rivera Primo clutch recommends atf so that's what it got. Debri on the magnet increase dramatically compared to the ams 20/50 I use to run and there was a grinding crunching sound on each shut down. This could be replicated on the hoist and turning the engine in gear with the rear wheel, forward and backward within the ramps of the cam. Eventually after trying Belray gear saver which is piss thin also and the same results, I said fk it and put Formula plus in it. Debri dropped and the shutdown crunching sounds went away. By now the bore was getting chewed up so I got a new SE comp. Ran the whole season with the new modified SE comp and Formula+. Performed flawlessly with no noise and minimal dust on the drain plug. Recent teardown to check for oiling showed the surfaces polished on the cam contact and sprocket rather than chewed up as with atf. The sprocket bore was clean and no hint of fretting dust anywhere. Like I say, this is my view but seeing the difference, it's like night and day to me. Some might have success with atf but for me it's been there done that and not going back there again. :teeth:
Ron
Quote from: les on December 02, 2010, 05:18:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2010, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: HDDOC on August 03, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I ordered the SE Compensator for my 09 SERG, I see that there has been some problem with the plastic thrush washer and was wondering if I would be better off replacing it with a metal spacer. I know it will make some noise and assume thats why it is on there. Anyone think this is a bad idea? Thanks Doc
Never had a problem with the washer myself. The bigger issue is getting oil into the bore so it won't chew itself up. Then the washer might take a beating. If you swap out the washer for hardened steel, that's fine but you will also eliminate any possibility for any oil to go into the sprocket bore. I've actually added oil grooves to the face of the sprocket next to the extension shaft to try and get more oil in there. From what experimenting I've done the plastic washer will likely outlast the metal parts. If you use ATF the whole mess will have a quick death. So far Formla + has worked the best in as far as comp performance and atf or any other thin oils seem to accelerate the wear big time. Once the bore gets sloppy it starts to chew unevenly on the thrust washer and is the secondary wear point.
Ron
So are you saying that ATF will tear up an SE compensator?
Now this is my view only, with some obserations on how the SE comp behaved when run with atf. I feel while there is adiquate lube for the chain, bearings in the primary as well as cooling the clutch well it sadly lacks enough lube to protect the ramps of the cam and the spokes of the comp sprocket. The original SE comp I had in with the 96 had quite a few miles on it and was in decent shape when installed back into the 113 engine. Rivera Primo clutch recommends atf so that's what it got. Debri on the magnet increase dramatically compared to the ams 20/50 I use to run and there was a grinding crunching sound on each shut down. This could be replicated on the hoist and turning the engine in gear with the rear wheel, forward and backward within the ramps of the cam. Eventually after trying Belray gear saver which is piss thin also and the same results, I said fk it and put Formula plus in it. Debri dropped and the shutdown crunching sounds went away. By now the bore was getting chewed up so I got a new SE comp. Ran the whole season with the new modified SE comp and Formula+. Performed flawlessly with no noise and minimal dust on the drain plug. Recent teardown to check for oiling showed the surfaces polished on the cam contact and sprocket rather than chewed up as with atf. The sprocket bore was clean and no hint of fretting dust anywhere. Like I say, this is my view but seeing the difference, it's like night and day to me. Some might have success with atf but for me it's been there done that and not going back there again. :teeth:
Ron
When is the SE Compensator Necessary?
If you read on HDFORUMS it should be changed to in every motor.
However when I hear it claimed to that extent it makes me wonder?
I had issues with startup, however I blame that on the High compression of the 255 cams in the 103 with out releases? Other than that I have had no issues that I can tell? However I changed over to a 107" and was wondering if the increased torque and hp might require the change or might benefit from it. I am waiting to see if I feel a clutch slip on my bike in the spring before I go into the primary (hopefully not), however should I plan on changing the compensator when I am in there (since I probably will have some slipping if I read Strokerjlk posts right?)?
I with rbabos on this. I've had 2 se comps do this with the atf.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
QuoteWhen is the SE Compensator Necessary?
Good question..
QuoteIf you read on HDFORUMS it should be changed to in every motor.
Bet they all use Redlline in the tranny also.. Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 02, 2010, 08:53:13 PM
QuoteWhen is the SE Compensator Necessary?
Good question..
And do you have an answer?
Everything that protects the weak crank set up from shock loads is a good thing. The SE comp is a means to accomplish that. HD made it stock for 2011 on the big rigs for a reason .
Yeah, but what is that reason? Maybe they have a bunch and it sounds like a perceived cool feature.After all I'm sure HD checks the message boards from time to time.. Probably does not cost any/much more to make than the stocker.. Also it helps to justify the cost of the higher priced bikes.
Quote from: bennenrkc on December 03, 2010, 05:38:23 AM
And do you have an answer?
Nope,,
Anyone killed a stock one? If the SE one provides stiffer damping is it going to help or hurt? Maybe if you like to power shift?
Max
The SE comp has more travel than the stock one. Doesn't bottom out easily like the stocker which is down to its knees at a hot soak start. Logic would tell me that I have lesser shock loads on the crank
Son in law's stock comp came apart, bike had 80,000 miles on it, 96 inch with cams, no head work.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 03, 2010, 07:26:27 AM
Yeah, but what is that reason? Maybe they have a bunch and it sounds like a perceived cool feature.After all I'm sure HD checks the message boards from time to time.. Probably does not cost any/much more to make than the stocker.. Also it helps to justify the cost of the higher priced bikes.
Quote from: bennenrkc on December 03, 2010, 05:38:23 AM
And do you have an answer?
Nope,,
Anyone killed a stock one? If the SE one provides stiffer damping is it going to help or hurt? Maybe if you like to power shift?
Max
How could it hurt? All I see that it does is remove shock load from the drivetrain? I don't see a possible downside - and definitely see an upside?
Unless you know something about it's effect that I don't see?? :scratch:
QuoteHow could it hurt?
Stock or SE?
Quote
All I see that it does is remove shock load from the drivetrain?
Doesn't the stock one also?? Is one that much better then the other??
QuoteThe SE comp has more travel than the stock one.
Well with 3 lobes on both cams the max travel can only be +- 1/6 turn. So how ,many degrees more travel is there?
QuoteDoesn't bottom out easily like the stocker which is down to its knees at a hot soak start.
So you think that starting the bike is what causes the cranks to twist?
QuoteSon in law's stock comp came apart, bike had 80,000 miles on it, 96 inch with cams, no head work.
Even the old EVO /TC compensator can blow up.. What failed on this one.. I suspect it might have been part of the spring housing but I'm only guessing.
If you put really stiff shocks on the back of a glide with a tour-pack to stop the occasional bottoming. Are things better than before or are you going to break off the tour pack mounting brackets?
What happens for the comp??
I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just trying to understand the issues. The SE does seem to be more progressive in the spring since there are 3 spring sizes. What else is there??
Maybe modifying the stocker would be a possible solution?
Max
My spings are pretty much shot@ 61,000 miles. It was fine up to the end.
I never had the starter bang that I see so many have,untill around 58,000 miles
The advertisement in the catalog calls for more travel. :nix: As I understand it this is made to soften the load the crank feels. This is a good thing with stock cranks, but on the down side. It also sounds like a power robber. More power absorbed by comp=less to rear wheel.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 03, 2010, 09:13:03 AM
The advertisement in the catalog calls for more travel. :nix: As I understand it this is made to soften the load the crank feels. This is a good thing with stock cranks, but on the down side. It also sounds like a power robber. More power absorbed by comp=less to rear wheel.
The fact that it's cushioning doesn't mean it's robbing power to any meaninful extent. Not like it's slipping on the crank or anything. The slight increase in mass will slow the spoolup somewhat but the tradeoffs are worth it in my view.
Ron
Quote from: bennenrkc on December 03, 2010, 05:38:23 AM
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 02, 2010, 08:53:13 PM
QuoteWhen is the SE Compensator Necessary?
Good question..
And do you have an answer?
Technically the stock comp with shallow ramp angles and weak spring pack combination will not effectively dampen the pulses much beyond light cruise conditions. If a person don't keep the revs up and works the comp it will bottom the pack and continuously hammer the the spring pack into the rotor. Second problem is it's suppose to cushion rapid torque inputs but in fact being so weak the crank gets a running start in rotation and hits the wall at the end of the cam travel causing a sudden rotational shock load on the crank. This can cause slip of the wheels. To bottom the SE comp requires a combination of abuse and big time torque. Basically the stock comp was the best example of a non functioning pos I've ever seen. The spring pack was suitable for the earlier comps with steep ramps but the 34 tooth with shallow ramps makes it a terrible combination. By the way the SE spring pack is progressive, meaning there's a light spring for light load, 2 medium discs for more load and finally two big mothers that defy you to flatten these puppies out. :hyst: Stock comp has 4 thin discs that equal to what a limp dick could accomplish.
Ron
now thats a good answer
A number of things happened in ’07 that seem to coincide with the current crank issues. In ’07 the Cruise Drive was expanded from the Dyna Platform to include all Big Twins. It seems that the new larger motor sprocket would easily max out the capacity of its shock absorbing compensator. This is evident by the sound made when the mechanical stops are reached at maximum travel. Crank failures and starter failures began to occur in increased numbers...
When problems became evident in 2007, one of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration. This was intended to prevent the engine from pulling down hard at extremely low RPM. The resulting powertrain snatch would hammer the crankshaft off the compensator's mechanical stops resulting in severe torque spikes at the crankpin, ultimately shifting the flywheel assembly.
One of the next countermeasures was the Isolated Drive System introduced on 2008 touring platform machines. The IDS is also offered as a retrofit for 2007 touring machines. This device absorbs shock loads generated from the powertrain, reducing stress at the crankpin.
Another countermeasure that followed in 2008 was the high capacity compensating sprocket - the SE compensator.
Regarding other internal countermeasures; I've been led to believe from an engineering friend at the MOCO is the interference fit of the crankpin into the flywheel doesn't tolerate being disturbed after it has been assembled. My understanding is that if the joint is moved after assembly, even for truing, the integrity of the joint will be compromised, reducing the torque capacity of the assembly.
Somewhere there is a "calculation" based on production variables that results in the substantial number which is used to specify "acceptable" trueness of this assembly. So far it seems in practice that this number is not representative of a quality component.
My sense is that the increasing flywheel shift issues beginning in ‘07 are the result of drivetrain changes coupled with higher engine output which was not met with adequate torsional dampening of the drivetrain.
My take on the crankshaft issues that began in 2007 are:
The crankpin was moved further from the crankshaft center, increasing the stroke and the mechanical leverage of the flywheel’s inertia over the crankpin. This reduces the crankshaft’s capacity to resist high torsional load spikes.
The longer stroke results in increased mechanical leverage resulting in higher torsional loads throughout the powertrain.
The overall gear ratio changed substantially with the advent of the Cruise Drive to a numerically lower ratio. This change resulted in a substantial increase in load throughout the powertrain.
You have a scenario whereby the engine has increased capacity to produce high torsional loads; the crankshaft has reduced capacity to handle these loads and the drivetrain and chassis have less capacity to absorb and dampen these torsional load spikes. The engine makes more, and the rest of the powertrain and chassis absorb and dampen less
I haven’t seen anything in the aftermarket that provides increased torsional load handling capabilities for high output H-D drivetrains. It only makes sense that these loads will increase with higher engine output. It is also apparent that relying on the rider’s technique to manage the load will not always return a positive result.
Of course, this is just unsubstantiated conversation and conclusion on my part... and input from others more knowledgeable than me on the subject.... :scratch: :nix:
Quote from: ViennaHog on August 03, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
The comp kit was revised sometime ago and should be OK now. It is stock on the 2011 FHLTs. Go figure
seems that the 10's touring bikes had the SE compensator. seems i read it on this forum some time ago.
My Deuce is going back together with one of these:
http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html (http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html)
I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now.
It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs. I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again. You can search the web to find articles about it.
QuoteMaybe if you like to power shift?
Max
Well, who doesn't? :scratch:
You have a 131 just to impress? Well, at 3500rpm, in each gear, not impressed. :hyst:[/quote]
Not sure where this came from... I do run it to the redline.. Need to be pointed in a safe direction though.. :wink:
Quoteone of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration.
How did they do this on the 07s? Retard spark?
Ron is pretty much right on cept I think that the smaller od diameter Belleville spring is the stiffer one.. Assuming the thicknesses are the same.
One thing nice about these springs is that they do coil bind well (go flat). Now as Scooter wrote, the 08 and later got the pulley damper. So what happens then the front damper bottoms out? The rear pulley damper does its thing.. Maybe that makes the stock compensator OK? One thing I've noticed is that you don't feel the cylinder firing like you do with an earlier TC motor. Power delivery is much smoother even if it is bottoming out during a rollon..
Max
Quote from: happyman on December 03, 2010, 06:15:05 PM
Quote from: ViennaHog on August 03, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
The comp kit was revised sometime ago and should be OK now. It is stock on the 2011 FHLTs. Go figure
seems that the 10's touring bikes had the SE compensator. seems i read it on this forum some time ago.
2011's have the SE, the 2010 models have the weak crappy one.
ahhhhhhhhhh was given bad info several nothes ago then thanks
Keep up to date, visit the Model Year Technical Forums SECTION there's a lot of information there, for example:
2010 , New Parts Reference
2010 , Model Year Technical Forum
2011 , New Parts Reference
2011 , Model Year Technical Forum
will try too for sure.
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on December 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
My Deuce is going back together with one of these:
http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html (http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html)
I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now.
It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs. I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again. You can search the web to find articles about it.
Don't waste you money, a complete POS, I have one here that basically screwed itself together and secondly the nut makes holds on VERY few pinion shaft threads.
that is good info for sure. buy more mickey mouse parts, to replace mickey mouse parts, disgusting anymore
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 03, 2010, 07:26:27 AM
Anyone killed a stock one? If the SE one provides stiffer damping is it going to help or hurt? Maybe if you like to power shift?
Max
I killed the compensator in my 2010 Ultra. It was a slow and noisey death. I noticed it knocking at 3,000 miles and had the dealer do the 5,000 service, just so he could ride it and hear the comp knocking. Of course they said everything was fine, so I waited, and racked up the miles. At about 15,000 miles I figured I could not stand the noise anymore so I brought it in and told the service manager the compensator was shot. Before he looked athe the bike he tells me that he doubts it, because compensators rarely fail. Well, he took it for a ride and surprise, they replaced the compensator. He said it was really bad, and ready to fail in a big way. I never did get to see it as I sure would have liked too. They put the factory 2010 comp back in and I swear I can here it knocking already! I have a summer on riding left on factory warranty, so we shall see.
Quote from: BVHOG on December 03, 2010, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on December 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
My Deuce is going back together with one of these:
http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html (http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html)
I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now.
It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs. I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again. You can search the web to find articles about it.
Don't waste you money, a complete POS, I have one here that basically screwed itself together and secondly the nut makes holds on VERY few pinion shaft threads.
Max, haven't you got one of these BDL Comps unused ? Care to take a few measurements to post ?
Still got it. What do you want? Not sure what to measure... Max
Quote from: FSG on December 03, 2010, 08:11:17 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on December 03, 2010, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on December 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
My Deuce is going back together with one of these:
http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html (http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html)
I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now.
It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs. I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again. You can search the web to find articles about it.
Don't waste you money, a complete POS, I have one here that basically screwed itself together and secondly the nut makes holds on VERY few pinion shaft threads.
Max, haven't you got one of these BDL Comps unused ? Care to take a few measurements to post ?
i know on my 2010 limited i have a lot of what i would call cahin slap. you nitice it a lot more on up hill starts with a passenger on also. its makes ya woinder when the mess is gonna come out the primary , seruously.. hd has done soem good improvements but totally neglected some things that should never ever be overlooked ,. but like they say its the bean counters, but then if they go under because of junk parts the bean counters are out of work also. poetic justice indeed.
At 25,000 miles, the noise was bad, but the bike was nearly unrideable thanks to the slop in the compensator. The dealer replaced the stock piece with an S/E under warranty. It really makes a huge difference.
Quote from: 05Train on December 03, 2010, 08:37:09 PM
At 25,000 miles, the noise was bad, but the bike was nearly unrideable thanks to the slop in the compensator. The dealer replaced the stock piece with an S/E under warranty. It really makes a huge difference.
makes me wonder if it could be what is going on with my bike causing the slap of the chain?
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 03, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
Still got it. What do you want? Not sure what to measure... Max
The length of the nut and the thread depth measured from the outside face of the nut.
my buds 2010 with about 18,000 had his replace with the se version on the factory's dime it was so bad
Can anyone describe the "knocking noise". When do you hear it most? In gear or neutral?, Acceleration/deceleration/cruising?
I just know that when I replaced the stock compensator with the se one, the "bam" sound on start-up went away and so did the chattering sound that I would sometimes hear from the primary when starting out in first gear...bought the part online ..did the work myself...worth the money to me...
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on December 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
My Deuce is going back together with one of these:
http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html (http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html)
I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now.
It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs. I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again. You can search the web to find articles about it.
You will find that the first good hole shot with associtated power shifts will rotate it into a fixed position from that point on. This makes it rigid. I suppose you could unlock it with abusive down shifiting and start over but it really won't work for it's intended purpose. The loads are too high for memory of the teflon to rebound and torque will crush the snot out of it in short order. I honestly haven't used one, but I've seen enough crap in my life time to know when something won't work as advertised in real world usage.
Ron
Quote from: Sc00ter on December 03, 2010, 05:58:04 PM
A number of things happened in ’07 that seem to coincide with the current crank issues. In ’07 the Cruise Drive was expanded from the Dyna Platform to include all Big Twins. It seems that the new larger motor sprocket would easily max out the capacity of its shock absorbing compensator. This is evident by the sound made when the mechanical stops are reached at maximum travel. Crank failures and starter failures began to occur in increased numbers...
When problems became evident in 2007, one of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration. This was intended to prevent the engine from pulling down hard at extremely low RPM. The resulting powertrain snatch would hammer the crankshaft off the compensator's mechanical stops resulting in severe torque spikes at the crankpin, ultimately shifting the flywheel assembly.
One of the next countermeasures was the Isolated Drive System introduced on 2008 touring platform machines. The IDS is also offered as a retrofit for 2007 touring machines. This device absorbs shock loads generated from the powertrain, reducing stress at the crankpin.
Another countermeasure that followed in 2008 was the high capacity compensating sprocket - the SE compensator.
Regarding other internal countermeasures; I've been led to believe from an engineering friend at the MOCO is the interference fit of the crankpin into the flywheel doesn't tolerate being disturbed after it has been assembled. My understanding is that if the joint is moved after assembly, even for truing, the integrity of the joint will be compromised, reducing the torque capacity of the assembly.
Somewhere there is a "calculation" based on production variables that results in the substantial number which is used to specify "acceptable" trueness of this assembly. So far it seems in practice that this number is not representative of a quality component.
My sense is that the increasing flywheel shift issues beginning in ‘07 are the result of drivetrain changes coupled with higher engine output which was not met with adequate torsional dampening of the drivetrain.
My take on the crankshaft issues that began in 2007 are:
The crankpin was moved further from the crankshaft center, increasing the stroke and the mechanical leverage of the flywheel’s inertia over the crankpin. This reduces the crankshaft’s capacity to resist high torsional load spikes.
The longer stroke results in increased mechanical leverage resulting in higher torsional loads throughout the powertrain.
The overall gear ratio changed substantially with the advent of the Cruise Drive to a numerically lower ratio. This change resulted in a substantial increase in load throughout the powertrain.
You have a scenario whereby the engine has increased capacity to produce high torsional loads; the crankshaft has reduced capacity to handle these loads and the drivetrain and chassis have less capacity to absorb and dampen these torsional load spikes. The engine makes more, and the rest of the powertrain and chassis absorb and dampen less
I haven’t seen anything in the aftermarket that provides increased torsional load handling capabilities for high output H-D drivetrains. It only makes sense that these loads will increase with higher engine output. It is also apparent that relying on the rider’s technique to manage the load will not always return a positive result.
Of course, this is just unsubstantiated conversation and conclusion on my part... and input from others more knowledgeable than me on the subject.... :scratch: :nix:
I see someone has done their homework here. Lot's of good factual info in your post.
Ron
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 03, 2010, 06:45:08 PM
QuoteMaybe if you like to power shift?
Max
Well, who doesn't? :scratch:
You have a 131 just to impress? Well, at 3500rpm, in each gear, not impressed. :hyst:
Not sure where this came from... I do run it to the redline.. Need to be pointed in a safe direction though.. :wink:
Quoteone of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration.
How did they do this on the 07s? Retard spark?
Ron is pretty much right on cept I think that the smaller od diameter Belleville spring is the stiffer one.. Assuming the thicknesses are the same.
One thing nice about these springs is that they do coil bind well (go flat). Now as Scooter wrote, the 08 and later got the pulley damper. So what happens then the front damper bottoms out? The rear pulley damper does its thing.. Maybe that makes the stock compensator OK? One thing I've noticed is that you don't feel the cylinder firing like you do with an earlier TC motor. Power delivery is much smoother even if it is bottoming out during a rollon..
Max
[/quote]
Max: Most jap bikes only run the iso drive sprocket and no engine comp so this somewhat makes the lame stock comp somewhat usable if the ids is used. I've ridden the 113 Yamaha Raider and it is quite a bit more pulsey than my fxstc with the 113. However with the SE and the ids, there is good cushioning in the drive train that's hard to beat.
My 07 fxstc had terrible 5th gear clatter and no ids was available which was the fix for this noise. I did modify the spring pack on the stocker and go it to the point that the clatter was almost none existant if the revs were kept up. Then the SE came out and saw the potential for it to eliminat the resonance in the drive train due to different spring rates and longer area of progressive dampening. First ride with it and still being a 96" I headed out to find the clatter zone of 55 mph in fifth. It was completely gone. Even lug testing it showed no clatter at speeds and rpms no normal person should run at. I seriously was ready to dump this bike for a metric if I couldn't remove that noise. Even with the 113 and it's more aggressive pulses the drive train is quiet. As for the springs, the first one next to the cam is the thinnest, similar to the stock comp and it's the one that sets the preload on the comp when the bolt is snugged up. It compresses a nominal .090 and what's left before flattening handles the light loads like launch or coasting loads. Any hint of accel the next set start flexing. I'd have to look again at the thicknesses of the inboard 4 but I seem to remember them as the same thickness. That would mean the larger dia of the 2 next to the rotor would be the next to see the load and finally the smaller od middle 2 as the stiffest. This part was acutally well thought out.
Remember in the stocker there are 4 identical springs set in series. The total pressure is equal to what one disc will provide only. The other 3 only provide the length of stroke that the cam needs for gear rotation. The stock comp runs the cam tips into the spocket ramp and wears fast. Once the .090 preload is worn off from the cam tips it will rattle on the sprocket bore. The SE uses the large area of the cam bottom instead and is way more stable to retain preload.
Ron
To add to Scooter's comments, the wider back tire (IMO) does not help with shock loads either--both on acceleration and stopping.
I hate to kill the current discussion (and hope it doesnt) but for us reading and not having the knowledge to add the discussion when is the:
SE Compensator Necessary?
A Good Idea?
and what should the average rider be looking for to see if the stock system is failing?
Thanks all, I went and talked to the dealer about there experience with it and they think I am crazy for even knowing what it is, especially since they don't, had to show the service Manager and tech the SE edition in the Catalog.
Good stuff Ron.. Some things are worth discussion..
Bennen, no answer to your question..
First, While I've not had a chance to look at the gut of a Yamaha Raider, it wouldn't surprise me if it had an internal compensator also.. Most Jap bikes I've worked on had built into the clutch..
You are right that Belleville springs can be pretty much a constant rate. Pressure = constant Where a typical straight wound coil spring could be pressure = constant X distance compressed..
Time for some pics,,,
Stock Comp
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/StockComp.jpg)
SE Comp
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/SEComp.jpg)
The stock comp picture does not show spring stack but we can assume it is 4 pair of Belleville with semi constant pressure.
If you look at the design, the SE comp does have different Belleville springs, each most probably provides close to a constant pressure until flat where the stock comp only has constant pressure..
Both have one thing missing from your discussion that are worth mentioning, cam ramps. In both cases the cam slopes are not a constant slope.. The slope of the cam dictates the amount of movement of cam. Less slope, less movement, more slope more movement.. This translates to compression of the Belleville springs at different rates, which translate back to force applied to the sprocket.. Less slope more movement of the sprocket, more slope more pressure applied to the sprocket..
Looking at the the pics.. The SE sprocket does have have more of a changing ramp.. Which means it's more progressive in how it reacts to movement (absorption) to driving (force) on the drivetrain. Definitely should be able to handle hard launches..
I'm not sure I buy the better wear thing.. The stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. As load increases the 3 pairs of point merge and drop to 3 and the cam faces are wider / flatter.
So is the SE comp necessary for all bikes?
Will it stop a crank from twisting?
Will it last longer than stock?
I've not sure there are definite answers to any one of these.. There really need to be a large population of both types out there and the results well documented.
Am I going to run out and buy an SE compensator? Probably not.. At least not until I wear out or break the stock unit.. For me the stock unit is working fine.
BTW I think Scooters note on how the cranks go together do bring up an important point.. Depending on how the cranks go together, some may fail.. But then many may not.. It is sad the occurrence is no longer down in the noise anymore..
Max
does a belt drive eliminate the compesator?
QuoteThe stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. ....
Max, I see them both having 6 contact points, 3 in each direction and only 3 in contact at any one time.
Quote from: sportygordy on December 04, 2010, 09:24:36 AM
does a belt drive eliminate the compesator?
Sure the heck does.. I think that an early HD EVO model had belt primary with from compensator but only lasted a year or 2.. Read this off the internet so you know how that is.. :wink:
Quote from: FSG on December 04, 2010, 09:26:57 AM
QuoteThe stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. ....
Max, I see them both having 6 contact points, 3 in each direction and only 3 in contact at any one time.
On the stock compensator, there are 3 peaks each on the gear and 3 on the cam.. Each peak can touch a valley to give 6 points at rest.
On the SE, there is a cam with ramp and 3 oval bars that rest in the valleys.. I only ever see 3 points of contact in this system.
Of course, on the stock comp.. One side peaks could then taller than the other making only 3 points... I've only play with the stock comp once and it looked OK as far as wear goes..
I was replacing the tranny pulley on the 07 so I needed to pull it off.. FWIW, Bike still has the original primary tensioner.. I'd bought a new style one but it wasn't needed..
I'll post pics of the BDL comp sprocket later.. Need to resurrect a camera to do it and have some other chores..
Max
Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6, but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron
Thinking out loud...
It looks to me that on the 07-10 compensator that during most running situations the load is distributed over a larger area based on the mating ramps being the same shape and angle.
On the SE unit the load is concentrated on a smaller area dictated by the sprocked side drive lugs .
Of course if the other components on the early style compensator crap out sooner than the SE assembly the ramp differences don't matter.
3k on a 2010 Limited (103 stock) and a bang, or hard thud, at start up and a lighter, but still hard one when dropped into first when cold, is this the compensator noise?
2006 with much more power, no noise. Is this a different part than the 96's have?
Quote from: BAKON on December 04, 2010, 03:03:38 PM
3k on a 2010 Limited (103 stock) and a bang, or hard thud, at start up and a lighter, but still hard one when dropped into first when cold, is this the compensator noise?
2006 with much more power, no noise. Is this a different part than the 96's have?
Noise at startup is the comp. Could be the comp as well if the cold first gear shift is extra clunky with a harsh engagement.
2006 comp is a different animal and has steeper ramps. Steep ramps through less mechanical advantage won't botton the spring pack out as easy as the stock 07-10 units even though the discs washers appear to be the same in each model. At least based on the 05 night train I recently worked on which is likely the same as the 06. In 06 Dyna's ran the 6 speed trans preceding the 07 models. I don't know if they used the newer stock comp or retained the previous one.
Ron
I was out of town for this thread. I am the member that lost Ron's pics. I noticed the fretting way back when on the SE comps and swapped in a second one. The second one fretted in 5k miles and was causing a vibration. The comp basically locked up from running dry. I gave up and I re-installed the stock comp. But now, with 22k on the mini 'low power' build and 17k on the stock comp... it is wore out.
Ron altered his comp, and I was awaiting confirmation his alterations would work. Seems they do! :) :) :). Thanks so very much Ron!!!
I didn't know if the grooves would work or not , but just like my heads.... groovy seems to be the way to go.
My stock comp is DOA right now, I think. So, I... the BIG HATER of the SE comps, will try one again.
Ron.... how did the clutch discs look? I wouldn't have any problem throwing the Redline out and change to formula+, except Barnett told me to NOT run Formula+. So... if your discs and steels look good... I will start saving for a new comp.... and possibly change out the Barnetts for another clutch???
Only my own observations here... I run 105/115 and feel right around these power levels is enough to warrant a change over on the comp. That 17k, on the stock comp, was almost the total miles I rode this year. I think the spring is wore out from the sounds it is making. I do NOT power shift nor lug the engine.
Quote from: rbabos on December 04, 2010, 01:51:36 PM
Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6,but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron
Note sure what you are saying.. Maybe I'm not seeing it.. I only count 3.. This pic shows the end of cam and they are not touching anything..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/Secomp1.jpg)
FSG
Pics of the BDL..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl1.jpg)
How far the gear can travel begore it buts up against one flat.
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl2.jpg)
How far it ca travel before it buts up against the hard plastic washer..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl3.jpg)
Max
Quote from: rbabos on December 04, 2010, 01:51:36 PM
Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6,but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron
Note sure what you are saying.. Maybe I'm not seeing it.. I only count 3.. This pic shows the end of cam and they are not touching anything..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/Secomp1.jpg)
FSG
Pics of the BDL..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl1.jpg)
How far the gear can travel begore it buts up against one flat.
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl2.jpg)
How far it ca travel before it buts up against the hard plastic washer..
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/bdl3.jpg)
Max
Like I said before, Otto just got my engine back together and used the BDL compensator and a S&S wheel set. Unfortunately it just snowed so I don't know if I am going to do any riding until the spring. It will get some dyno time soon so maybe we can tell something about how it will perform. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 04, 2010, 05:41:25 PM
I was out of town for this thread. I am the member that lost Ron's pics. I noticed the fretting way back when on the SE comps and swapped in a second one. The second one fretted in 5k miles and was causing a vibration. The comp basically locked up from running dry. I gave up and I re-installed the stock comp. But now, with 22k on the mini 'low power' build and 17k on the stock comp... it is wore out.
Ron altered his comp, and I was awaiting confirmation his alterations would work. Seems they do! :) :) :). Thanks so very much Ron!!!
I didn't know if the grooves would work or not , but just like my heads.... groovy seems to be the way to go.
My stock comp is DOA right now, I think. So, I... the BIG HATER of the SE comps, will try one again.
Ron.... how did the clutch discs look? I wouldn't have any problem throwing the Redline out and change to formula+, except Barnett told me to NOT run Formula+. So... if your discs and steels look good... I will start saving for a new comp.... and possibly change out the Barnetts for another clutch???
Only my own observations here... I run 105/115 and feel right around these power levels is enough to warrant a change over on the comp. That 17k, on the stock comp, was almost the total miles I rode this year. I think the spring is wore out from the sounds it is making. I do NOT power shift nor lug the engine.
Truk: They look fine, and the Formla+ is ok for summer months but when it's cold out it can be quite sticky on the plates on the first shift of the day. Pondering trying 10/40 as maybe the best possible overall grade in the primary. Rivera also recommends atf as the oil to use, but that's only to make plate seperation better. I'm sure they don't care how many comps I fk up. Maybe with the grooves atf will work better but it still shows a lack of protection on the wear points of the comp. I can't justify using it after seeing the effects. It seems there will always be some form of compromise with primary lubes to keep all the parts protected and functional.
Is the sound you are hearing a dull clunk in the primary at idle every now and then? If so , it's not the comp but the chain tensioner. If so, I will explain what it is.
Ron
Ron
Could you post photos of the mods you made to improve oiling to the SE unit? TIA
Quote from: Deweysheads on December 05, 2010, 07:39:50 AM
Ron
Could you post photos of the mods you made to improve oiling to the SE unit? TIA
Back in the spring I took one pic when truk was posting about the destrution of his. He must of thought it was ass whipe at the time since he no longer has it either. :hyst: When Over the season I cleaned computer house thinking this would not be so popular. Bike is back together again so no luck there. I gave the best description of the grooves and method of putting them in recently in a thread, if that helps. I believe a few are doing the mod now so hopefully at least one took a pick of it. :embarrassed:
Ron
Max: The cam uses 3 accel contacts and 3 decel contacts. That's where I'm getting the 6 from. Stocker is the same.
Ron
Hey. I looked everywhere for those pix. I couldn't find any e-mails with them.
But... I have a pic of what Dhojo1 did on v-twin. Ron made HIS grooves right at the spokes, so I used the red pen on photoshop to point where Ron's grooves are.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc254/jbkaiser97/spokes.jpg)
I'm wondering if Dhojo's grooves are a good idea? If they faced the oil while the comp spun, it would help force feed it a bit.
But... I will do what Ron tells me to do, because it is now a KNOWN fix that costs NOTHING... MY kind of 'fix' right now.
At first... I REALLY liked the SE comp. No starter bang or any noise at all. But once the inner shaft started galling... it DID make noises AND started to cause a vibration. It was like the inner and outer would make tight contact onto the spokes, and the comp wouldn't contact the spokes solidly.
Damn I guess I need to weld up the groves on the spline now. :hyst: been waiting on those pics so I can modify the two I have going on the 120's
thanks John.
so what to do .....B&M trick shift or formula + :banghead:
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2010, 03:30:21 PM
so what to do .....B&M trick shift or formula + :banghead:
50/50 mix. :nix: :pop: :bike:
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 05, 2010, 02:55:42 PM
Hey. I looked everywhere for those pix. I couldn't find any e-mails with them.
But... I have a pic of what Dhojo1 did on v-twin. Ron made HIS grooves right at the spokes, so I used the red pen on photoshop to point where Ron's grooves are.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc254/jbkaiser97/spokes.jpg)
I'm wondering if Dhojo's grooves are a good idea? If they faced the oil while the comp spun, it would help force feed it a bit.
But... I will do what Ron tells me to do, because it is now a KNOWN fix that costs NOTHING... MY kind of 'fix' right now.
At first... I REALLY liked the SE comp. No starter bang or any noise at all. But once the inner shaft started galling... it DID make noises AND started to cause a vibration. It was like the inner and outer would make tight contact onto the spokes, and the comp wouldn't contact the spokes solidly.
I chose the spoke c/l for two reasons. Placing the grooves here would not really weaken the bore much, plus oil at shutdown will run down the spoke into the groove.
I like the angle idea but personally felt that all oil is flug away from the bore when running so never persued it. Since the oem version ran bone dry the idea was to throw some oil at it from time to time. If it only got some oil on a shutdown from the trickle down effect of the spoke it's still getting some oil. So far, so good. It's funny, each time previously when having the previous comp off I would add oil, moly grease, anti seize and it alway came out bone dry. This time with more miles in between the bore was damp with oil. Then again the engine stopped with one spoke vertical. :wink: Bottom line is no matter what approach is used as long as the contact area between the comp bore face and the extension shaft is not a complete metal to metal seal it should give some oil to the unit.
Ron
Thanks for the pic John.
I was trying to figure out a way to break the news to rbabos that his stator was bad and to go ahead and get some pics. of the mod when he replaced his stator.
I have been considering BelRay primary lube.However I read that it is the same as their trans oil.That may be good may not.Who knows?
Do you think the angle of those cuts was deliberate to aid in forcing oil into the inner of the comp ?
I love this forum
so much tech........Stuff you need .....unlike chrome which only gets you laid. I've only been here a couple weeks now but have learned so much ......thanx guys you rock
Quote from: autoworker on December 05, 2010, 04:01:08 PM
Thanks for the pic John.
I was trying to figure out a way to break the news to rbabos that his stator was bad and to go ahead and get some pics. of the mod when he replaced his stator.
I have been considering BelRay primary lube.However I read that it is the same as their trans oil.That may be good may not.Who knows?
If it's the same as Belray gear saver that's used in two stroke gear boxes, I've found it blows as well. Appears the same visc as atf and the same effect. Might work ok on the earlier steep ramp comps but these guys seem to need a better lube or film thickness than atf or really light visc provides. If the Belray primary is thicker, then it's worth a shot for sure. My stator is just ducky , by the way :bike:
Ron
Quote from: FSG on December 05, 2010, 04:36:03 PM
Do you think the angle of those cuts was deliberate to aid in forcing oil into the inner of the comp ?
I would say so. First thing I looked at was the direction/ange of the cuts. They are the correct orientation related to engine rotation.
Ron
:up: which is how I interpreted them as well
Quote from: FSG on December 05, 2010, 04:36:03 PM
Do you think the angle of those cuts was deliberate to aid in forcing oil into the inner of the comp ?
Yes But you need em both ways one to pull it in another to push it out.. :wink:
Max
I even tried to add a little scoop to grab a little more oil. I'm going to put it back in the bike soon and see how it works. I don't even have that pic any more. I might even open up the grooves a little more.
Got lost here....
The picture with the cuts, that a SE compensator or a stock one?
some cut or the way it comes?
and someone (rbabos) else cut theirs where the red lines are?
Thanks
The pic shows the SE Comp and they do not come cut. Doc
"Quote
Maybe if you like to power shift?
Max
Well, who doesn't?
You have a 131 just to impress? Well, at 3500rpm, in each gear, not impressed. [/quote]
Not sure where this came from... I do run it to the redline.. Need to be pointed in a safe direction though..
From left field :embarrassed: that's why I removed it shortly afterward. Mis-understood Max's comment.
So then if the pic shows the angle of the cuts, but also shows the red line where Ron made his cuts, Ron did you make your cuts just like the red line, or at the same angle as those cuts, but just where the red lines are?
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on December 06, 2010, 09:15:37 AM
So then if the pic shows the angle of the cuts, but also shows the red line where Ron made his cuts, Ron did you make your cuts just like the red line, or at the same angle as those cuts, but just where the red lines are?
I used radiused cuts inline with the spokes. 3/16"x1/8" deep approximately. No angle.
Ron
Formula+. I had trick shift and redline in mine... same rusted ass results.
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 06, 2010, 07:17:47 PM
Formula+. I had trick shift and redline in mine... same rusted ass results.
are you saying your etting rust? or were?
We are all (those of us posting about this) getting rust. The 'rust' is NOT from oxidation, but from the outer bore of the comp disintegrating from running bone dry ... fretting. The 'fretting' is caused by NO lubrication and the inner and outer shaft are riding metal-to-metal.
What's up Hojo? !!!
I just bought a new s.e. comp 40274-08 and the 3 spokes on the gear have flat surfaces machined at the inner part of the spokes where they join at the center hub, dont see them on the pics on this thread? did they revise this part because of no lubrication? or are the grooves still needed?
i just looked at the pic again the flat spots are at the place in the pic where the red lines are where the spokes meet the center
OOPS never mind i was looking on the wrong side! dooh!!
Quote from: timtoolman on December 07, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
I just bought a new s.e. comp 40274-08 and the 3 spokes on the gear have flat surfaces machined at the inner part of the spokes where they join at the center hub, dont see them on the pics on this thread? did they revise this part because of no lubrication? or are the grooves still needed?
i just looked at the pic again the flat spots are at the place in the pic where the red lines are where the spokes meet the center
I have those flat spots as well. If the contact area of the bore to the extension shaft form a metal to metal seal oil can't get in. I realize there are small sprials in the thrust washer but they must be too small to let oil in there. Best the sprials in the composite washer can do is add a touch of lube to the washer itself and none to the bore. By adding grooves on the other end no air can be trapped to resist oil entering the bore. More free flowing both ends.
Ron
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 07, 2010, 05:51:27 AM
What's up Hojo? !!!
How iz ya? Same stuff here, waiting on parts :banghead: :hyst:
So what your guys are saying to do is to put the grooves on the side where the( # 2 shaft extension as it is called in the parts list) goes in the comp sprocket????
I would say post some pics to show what exactly it is your describing, and it will help others ....like me to be able to do this mod :smilep:
Quote from: timtoolman on December 08, 2010, 08:30:07 AM
So what your guys are saying to do is to put the grooves on the side where the( # 2 shaft extension as it is called in the parts list) goes in the comp sprocket????
See post's 10 & 11....
Quote from: slik rik on December 08, 2010, 12:28:20 PM
I would say post some pics to show what exactly it is your describing, and it will help others ....like me to be able to do this mod :smilep:
see picture in post 76... Ron put his grooves where the red lines are shown....
I figured it out duh? ive been up to many hours working .I did the grooves in the 2 different spots, i did the curved ones and ron's design, which i made sure the groove went up into the spoke for oil to go in , cant hurt its a heavy part, Prett cool idea guys i like it
Wish my hand was as steady as it was years ago with a dremmel tool. see pic below
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Below is a pic of Ron's comp sprocket mod. Ron take a look at www.bild.me (http://www.bild.me) an easy one pic at a time hosting site.
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/4029003SE_comp_sprocket.jpg)
FSG: Thanks for the link. Mucho better than some of the others I've tried.
Ron
So one already installed, should it be pulled back apart and make those grooves or wait and see if it becomes a problem? Any noises or symptoms that it is becoming a problem?
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on December 08, 2010, 04:35:10 PM
So one already installed, should it be pulled back apart and make those grooves or wait and see if it becomes a problem? Any noises or symptoms that it is becoming a problem?
You won't notice much until it's too late. I've been in and out of the primary too much to let it wear out to the point of causing problems . Once I saw all the red coating on the outside and noticed the bore taking a beating ( as in looser than new) I replaced it with a new one as in the pic. I believe Truk had one go to the point of symptoms. It will likely rattle and could cause a bit more vibes. If nothing else most likely the life will be shorter than with the grooves. That's my observation but more of these mods need to be done to get a better before and after effect. Like with grooved heads, it won't hurt anything unless you cut stress risers into the bore. I strongly recommend radiused grooves for that reason.
Ron
I think we are all on the same page. Sometime in the future... please... all of you who did the mod... report back to FSG, and we can track the success and progress of this mod.
Who was it that said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" ?
Quote from: FSG on December 08, 2010, 05:09:29 PM
Who was it that said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" ?
Ben Franklin :teeth:
Ron's grooves are much nicer and wider, i might have to redo mine,
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on December 08, 2010, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: FSG on December 08, 2010, 05:09:29 PM
Who was it that said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" ?
Ben Franklin :teeth:
perzactly, so you know what your doing this weekend then :wink:
yes but it is still in the box, havent started working on it yet
In FBSG pic above of Rons groove, it looks like the groove carrys into the bore. Is this Right? Doc
Quote from: HDDOC on December 09, 2010, 05:01:17 AM
In FBSG pic above of Rons groove, it looks like the groove carrys into the bore. Is this Right? Doc
It does look like that doesn't it. I wondered if it was a groove or a shadow also.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
FWIW maybe I already posted this ...my stock comp had the red fretting,the last time I had it off.
QuoteIn FBSG pic above of Rons groove, it looks like the groove carrys into the bore. Is this Right?
NO, what you see is a light shadow.
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/9020505x.jpg)
Quote from: FSG on December 09, 2010, 12:07:59 PM
QuoteIn FBSG pic above of Rons groove, it looks like the groove carrys into the bore. Is this Right?
NO, what you see is a light shadow.
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/9020505x.jpg)
Correct. The grooves are only on the face. Bore is untouched other than breaking the edge of the groove.
Ron
maybe the bore could use a slight groove the entire depth?????? maybe thats to much? or not a good idea?
I was thinking the same thing. It doesn't spin on it, it just rocks back and forth. :scratch:
Quote from: timtoolman on December 09, 2010, 04:05:58 PM
maybe the bore could use a slight groove the entire depth?????? maybe thats to much? or not a good idea?
Don't think it's needed. Bore clearance is plenty sloppy when new. If you can get the oil to the bore edge it will flow in no problem. In stock form the thrust faces of the gear and extension shaft seal it off and prevent oil from getting there.
Ron
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 09, 2010, 07:25:39 AM
FWIW maybe I already posted this ...my stock comp had the red fretting,the last time I had it off.
Yup. Seen the same myself and if one is hell bent on using the stock comp grooves would help it out. Then you'd have a lube up pos. Personally I don't think it's worth the effort since it lacks in so many ways.
Ron
With no grooves cut in my SE Comp I guess I will go back in and have a look see, has 8500 miles on it now. Thanks Doc
Quote from: HDDOC on December 11, 2010, 05:40:14 AM
With no grooves cut in my SE Comp I guess I will go back in and have a look see, has 8500 miles on it now. Thanks Doc
I found it interesting that different fluids change the amount of visual red coating on the sprocket. Originally ran ams 20/50 and it showed virtually none on the outside face of the sprocket. Bore, however had slight red and some heavy red score marks. Atf and Belray, made the complete face of the sprocket red, as if painted with a spray bomb. Prior to grooves Formula+ was also clean on the outside but slightly redish in the bore. I'm not sure if depending on the fluid if one over the other will wash the residue off or not. I do know that atf completely removed my index paint marks on the sprocket and chain, where the others had no effect on the paint marks.
It's a good idea if removing the comp to mark the cam point and the two spokes it sits between if it's reinstalled. It's a component that acutally breaks in to form even contact between the cam and spokes. Randomly slapping it back together could cause uneven contacts and stress the bore out with non centered pressure.
Ron
Thanks gentlemen (and I use that term loosly) for this informative posting. I'm going to be doing some sort of mods to my 2011 FLHR this winter because of it. Question: I've never worked yet with the SE compensator. During installation, is it difficult to keep the stack of springs and the thrust washer from getting pinched?
I know after you get the feel for something you develop a technique. But since this will be my first time, perhaps you can throw some advice my way. Thanks!
Also, is it recommended to get a "new bolt" for the SE comp? If not, then what loctite is recommended?
Quote from: les on December 11, 2010, 12:23:43 PM
Also, is it recommended to get a "new bolt" for the SE comp? If not, then what loctite is recommended?
I would,it can't hurt.The bolt supplied with the comp comes with a threadlocking agent "patch" on it.I don't know if the replacement does or not but a couple of drops of red will do the trick.
Yes a new bolt is recommended and they do come with the patch.
Ok...new bolt. Another question...sorry. The service manual says to torque to 100 lbs, loosen the bolt one complete turn, then torque to 140 lbs. What's the purpose for loosening and re-torque to the 140 lbs., rather than just doing the torque to 140 lbs. in the first place? I imagine it's to assist the stack in finding its natural position?
Quote from: les on December 11, 2010, 02:55:41 PM
Ok...new bolt. Another question...sorry. The service manual says to torque to 100 lbs, loosen the bolt one complete turn, then torque to 140 lbs. What's the purpose for loosening and re-torque to the 140 lbs., rather than just doing the torque to 140 lbs. in the first place? I imagine it's to assist the stack in finding its natural position?
The stacking will be automatic, just watch that the plastic thrust washer doesn't jam between the end cap washer step and sprocket. Grease will hold it in place during install. The 100 intial and back of basically rubs the surfaces to remove or compress any high points, usually the bolt face and thread area. This gives a more consistant 140 in the end. As mentioned, replace the bolt. It has a mighty big task to do and repeated torque cycles can fatigue it and cause it to fracture when in use unexpectadly. I use red loctite, but if correctly prepped blue is up to the task as well due to the really long thread area.
Ron
Ron, if you had to chose between adding the SE compensator or the IDS which one would you chose?
Thanks for the good info on this thread.
You HAVE to get a new bolt... because the SE comp requires a different length. The SE Comp comes complete with the new bolt and pre-applied locktite coating. (Manual say EVERY time the comp bolt comes off... to get a new one, and I follow that advice, myself.)
The springs are fairly easy to keep all lined up when assembling onto the shaft. Once you have one in your hands... you will see. Remember to NOT install onto the bike how they are shipped... look in the instructions and install how the instruction set tells you.
In the past... there were some folks that said to try and 'center' the springs when torquing down. I would do that also, but not get overly anal about it.
Also... be reminded that SE Comp does NOT torque down like a stock compensator... using the locking tool. The SE comp need to be held in place with a big ass wrench when torquing it down. Do NOT use the primary chain locking tool. Using the locking tool will end up with an incorrect torque reading on the comp bolt. The friction disc in the SE Comp will impact the torque reading if you use the locking tool.
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 11, 2010, 08:13:58 PM
Also... be reminded that SE Comp does NOT torque down like a stock compensator... using the locking tool. The SE comp need to be held in place with a big ass wrench when torquing it down. Do NOT use the primary chain locking tool. Using the locking tool will end up with an incorrect torque reading on the comp bolt. The friction disc in the SE Comp will impact the torque reading if you use the locking tool.
Please explain more... I've got a 2011 Road King. The SE compensator comes "stock" on the 2011 Touring models, so stock equipment on my Road King. The service manual says to use the primary drive locking tool...the flat bar that goes in between the sprockets. The manual says to torque to 100, back off one turn, and torque to 140...using a "new" bolt.
Maybe FSG can find an install sheet for the SE Comp. The SE Comp has a large 'nut' looking thing that one is to hold in place while torquing. The 'nut' is right under the bolt. I used a two ft cresent wrench to hold this nut.
One SHOULD use a new bolt if at all possible, BTW. IMHO.
The threadlocker used by the MOCO is likely Vibratite. It paints on and drys
In the HTT > Documents & FAQ's > Instruction Sheets, Bulletins, Recalls > HD > Instruction Sheets SECTION
-J04825 BIG TWIN COMPENSATOR KIT, 40274-08
Download this... the instruction sheet for the SE comp, and read the install. It says to use a 1 3/4 box end wrench to hold in place. Curious that the manual doesn't say this. But I will go by the sheet and NOT the manual on this one.
Quote from: Deweysheads on December 12, 2010, 07:59:02 AM
The threadlocker used by the MOCO is likely Vibratite. It paints on and drys
Can one readily buy this, Don?
http://www.vibra-tite.com/threadlockers.html (http://www.vibra-tite.com/threadlockers.html)
Mcmaster has it.
Quote from: Ridgerunner on December 11, 2010, 04:43:26 PM
Ron, if you had to chose between adding the SE compensator or the IDS which one would you chose?
Thanks for the good info on this thread.
Good question. Since I have a softail and no option for an ids my choice is limited. The SE comp does however remove all drive train noises that the ids was developed for. Stock 07 comp did't and most likely contributed to the trans clatter. The ids alone would be best answered by somebody that ran the ids and the evo 30 tooth no comp unit. I'm thinking it should help but there's no denying a combo of both would be the best it can get.
Ron
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 11, 2010, 08:13:58 PM
Also... be reminded that SE Comp does NOT torque down like a stock compensator... using the locking tool. The SE comp need to be held in place with a big ass wrench when torquing it down. Do NOT use the primary chain locking tool. Using the locking tool will end up with an incorrect torque reading on the comp bolt. The friction disc in the SE Comp will impact the torque reading if you use the locking tool.
There is some reverse effect from the cam in torquing, but I still use the locking bar and add 5 to the torque. The object is to stretch the bolt to roughly 75-80% (guess) to the breaking point. This in turn eliminates any future fatigue cycles the bolt might experience from the comp pushing on it. This why the bolt should be replaced at each removal since it experiences near breaking point stretch at each torquing.
A bolt can only handle so much of these max load cycles before it's on the edge of snapping. This don't apply to the earlier barrel nut types of 06- since stretch is minimal at best.
Ron
Service Manual part # 99483-11, page 5-7 and 5-8. No mention of a 1 3/4" box wrench like it does on the SE comp instruction sheet. It shows using the (flat bar) locking tool.
Stuff like that irritates me when there are two different methods "officially" released by H-D. It's confusing.
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 12, 2010, 07:47:05 AM
Maybe FSG can find an install sheet for the SE Comp. The SE Comp has a large 'nut' looking thing that one is to hold in place while torquing. The 'nut' is right under the bolt. I used a two ft cresent wrench to hold this nut.
One SHOULD use a new bolt if at all possible, BTW. IMHO.
In the HTT > Documents & FAQ's > Instruction Sheets, Bulletins, Recalls > HD > Instruction Sheets SECTION
-J04825 BIG TWIN COMPENSATOR KIT, 40274-08
In the below pic you can see the BFN to be held, also some extra reading,
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,18966.msg192904.html#msg192904 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,18966.msg192904.html#msg192904)
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/5495589x.jpg)
The SE comp instruction sheet that I downloaded (that says to use the 1 3/4" nut) is dated Sept 2008. The manual I just bought (that says to use the flat bar tool) has the part number 99483-11, which means the manual is dated year 2011. They clearly show the SE comp in several photos in the manual using the flat bar tool to hold the assembly while doing the torque.
I'm pretty sure that you guys have been using the nut for years now to torque the SE comp with great success. Has anyone had failure using the flat bar tool to perform the torque?
Quote from: les on December 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
The SE comp instruction sheet that I downloaded (that says to use the 1 3/4" nut) is dated Sept 2008. The manual I just bought (that says to use the flat bar tool) has the part number 99483-11, which means the manual is dated year 2011. They clearly show the SE comp in several photos in the manual using the flat bar tool to hold the assembly while doing the torque.
I'm pretty sure that you guys have been using the nut for years now to torque the SE comp with great success. Has anyone had failure using the flat bar tool to perform the torque?
The way I look at it there is no reason to use that big nut unless you misplaced the locking bar. I've never used the nut to hold it. Either will work just as well.
Ron
I've not had to do one but, I'd prefer to hold the nut (crank) and torque the bolt against it, rather than against the rotation of the crank, the compression of the spring washers and the movement of the sliding cam against the compensating sprocket.
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/3720442x.jpg)
Quote from: FSG on December 12, 2010, 03:09:10 PM
I've not had to do one but, I'd prefer to hold the nut (crank) and torque the bolt against it, rather than against the rotation of the crank, the compression of the spring washers and the movement of the sliding cam against the compensating sprocket.
(http://s1.bild.me/bilder/311010/3720442x.jpg)
I see your point but technically it don't twist against the crank. It will rotate the crank until the comp hits the wall. Anti rotation is then transfered to the sprocket and locking bar exactly like the stock comp.
Ron
Taking a look at the diagram, it looks like the nut is an expensive waste of machining work. You need the bar anyway to do the clutch nut. Why waste time to machine a nut on the retainer? The wrench on the retainer does not seem to provide an advantage over the flat bar.
Just a quick question, is the primary cover gasket getting replaced everytime you open one up?
I know the older style, with a the removable inspection chain cover, like my 06, was replaced anytime the chain shoe needed replaced.
Quote from: BAKON on December 12, 2010, 05:09:52 PM
Just a quick question, is the primary cover gasket getting replaced everytime you open one up?
I know the older style, with a the removable inspection chain cover, like my 06, was replaced anytime the chain shoe needed replaced.
At first I changed it each time. Later I wised up and saw that this gasket will work 2-3 times as long as it's not sticking some of it's sealing surface to the faces when removed. Never pushed it past 3 myself.
I recently worked on an 05 train that some indy did the 95 kit. The outer gasket was thicker aluminum with orange silicone beading for sealing embedded into it. These could be used over and over without question but I havn't seen any others in use. If I run accross what brand it was I'll post it, or someone here might know who makes these. The inspection cover for chain adjustment was as you described on this 05 and it may or may not leak the second time since it is old school technology . I did recommend he replace it next time he's in there.
Ron
Anyone put oil under the bolt head (like you do with head bolts) before tightening?
Quote from: les on December 12, 2010, 04:34:19 PM
Taking a look at the diagram, it looks like the nut is an expensive waste of machining work. You need the bar anyway to do the clutch nut. Why waste time to machine a nut on the retainer? The wrench on the retainer does not seem to provide an advantage over the flat bar.
It not clear in the diagram what the 13/4" hex item is. It is the outside shoulder that holds the sprocket. It holds the space dimension so the sprocket can rock back and forth as it rotates.
It will spline into the shaft extension. It is used as a nut to hold the crankshaft when assembled.
Al
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Other photo
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: les on December 12, 2010, 04:34:19 PM
Taking a look at the diagram, it looks like the nut is an expensive waste of machining work. You need the bar anyway to do the clutch nut. Why waste time to machine a nut on the retainer? The wrench on the retainer does not seem to provide an advantage over the flat bar.
I take all that back.
Eleft36 :up:
Quote from: les on December 12, 2010, 07:28:38 PM
Anyone put oil under the bolt head (like you do with head bolts) before tightening?
This gasket was stock on all 2002 touring and softail models. Might have been used on other models also not sure. Doc. I liked them alot and could reuse them many times.
Rbabos, I think harley used to make the primary gasket like that, , Im thinking while im installing the s.e. comp. does the left crank bearing come out easily, after the clip is removed??and of course the stator , Id like to install a s.e. crank bearing while im in there
Quote from: timtoolman on December 13, 2010, 09:25:35 AM
Rbabos, I think harley used to make the primary gasket like that, , Im thinking while im installing the s.e. comp. does the left crank bearing come out easily, after the clip is removed??and of course the stator , Id like to install a s.e. crank bearing while im in there
I don't remember since mine is timken. Most likely it goes in from the inside, in which case you'd be screwed. There would be no way to latch onto it to get it out anyway since it's pressed in.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on December 07, 2010, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: timtoolman on December 07, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
I just bought a new s.e. comp 40274-08 and the 3 spokes on the gear have flat surfaces machined at the inner part of the spokes where they join at the center hub, dont see them on the pics on this thread? did they revise this part because of no lubrication? or are the grooves still needed?
i just looked at the pic again the flat spots are at the place in the pic where the red lines are where the spokes meet the center
I have those flat spots as well. If the contact area of the bore to the extension shaft form a metal to metal seal oil can't get in. I realize there are small sprials in the thrust washer but they must be too small to let oil in there. Best the sprials in the composite washer can do is add a touch of lube to the washer itself and none to the bore. By adding grooves on the other end no air can be trapped to resist oil entering the bore. More free flowing both ends.
Ron i was going to do the grooves till i checked out the clearances. The spring discs push the Compensator sprocket against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer. There is .034 between the bearing face you are grinding the grooves in and the bearing face of the shaft extension, i can not see anyway that oil would have trouble getting on that bearing journal of the shaft extension and the inside race of the compensator sprocket. The face of the compensator sprocket that you grind and the face of the shaft extension can never touch when assembled there is .032 gap on the one that i checked today which i put in not long ago thats 1/32 of an inch gap that is always there before you grind the additional slots. I was under the understanding that you ground the grooves because there was no gap for oil to get in. There is a large area for the oil to get in without the grooves. Realy don't understand why i had the rusty looking sht in there. There is no way that the face of that compensator sprocket and the shaft extension can touch with the spring pack preload against them.
:nix:??????
Ron
seems you suggested to me that I change the order of installation. I would have to go back and re read e mails to find it. was going to do this before installing these two SE comps. but what do you have to say about what Steve has found in his measuring (.034 gap.) got the sprockets going with me to work today to mill the grooves. shouldn't hurt anyway,but what say you?
Quote from: les on December 12, 2010, 07:28:38 PM
Anyone put oil under the bolt head (like you do with head bolts) before tightening?
Yes.
Pics attached of a holding wrench that I use for the SE Comps.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
nice :up:
Quote from: makstv5 on December 13, 2010, 09:31:24 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 07, 2010, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: timtoolman on December 07, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
I just bought a new s.e. comp 40274-08 and the 3 spokes on the gear have flat surfaces machined at the inner part of the spokes where they join at the center hub, dont see them on the pics on this thread? did they revise this part because of no lubrication? or are the grooves still needed?
i just looked at the pic again the flat spots are at the place in the pic where the red lines are where the spokes meet the center
I have those flat spots as well. If the contact area of the bore to the extension shaft form a metal to metal seal oil can't get in. I realize there are small sprials in the thrust washer but they must be too small to let oil in there. Best the sprials in the composite washer can do is add a touch of lube to the washer itself and none to the bore. By adding grooves on the other end no air can be trapped to resist oil entering the bore. More free flowing both ends.
Ron i was going to do the grooves till i checked out the clearances. The spring discs push the Compensator sprocket against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer. There is .034 between the bearing face you are grinding the grooves in and the bearing face of the shaft extension, i can not see anyway that oil would have trouble getting on that bearing journal of the shaft extension and the inside race of the compensator sprocket. The face of the compensator sprocket that you grind and the face of the shaft extension can never touch when assembled there is .032 gap on the one that i checked today which i put in not long ago thats 1/32 of an inch gap that is always there before you grind the additional slots. I was under the understanding that you ground the grooves because there was no gap for oil to get in. There is a large area for the oil to get in without the grooves. Realy don't understand why i had the rusty looking sht in there. There is no way that the face of that compensator sprocket and the shaft extension can touch with the spring pack preload against them.
You are mistaken. When it is under load that gap clamps shut and it's over. That 'red rust' is NOT really 'rust' at all.... it is metal fretted out of the bore of the comp from lack of lube... it IS metal-to-metal and isn't good at all. Since YOU have the 'rust'... YOU have the problem. In 2008.... I was the LONE voice in the woods on this thing. Sure glad Ron saw the same problems as I did.
John's wrench looks better than my 2ft cresent.
No it looks like rust but is not. I am not mistaken if you look at the parts mentioned the compensator sprocket does not clamp the space shut at any time . The sliding cam is what the springs are pushing against the compensator sprocket, the sliding cam is what moves back and forth with the torque of the engine on the shaft extension. At no time is the compensator sprocket you are grinding the grooves in closing the gap on the shaft extension,it is pressed tightly against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer. You would need to explain how the compensator sprocket can move against the sliding cam which is being pressed by the springs against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer and bolt before you say i am mistaken. There is 34 thousands on the side once the whole unit is tightened down and even if it did close the gap you are saying there would be 34 thousands on the thrust washer side for the oil to get in and that is not happening with the spring pack against it. Sorry but you need to check out what parts are moving in the compensator. That compensator sprocket does move towards the spring pack to close the gap it only turns under torque and pushes the sliding cam against the springs that are up against the rotor assembly. Maybe the grooves do allow some more surface to get the oil in there but at no time is that compensator sprocket clamped tight on both sides to stop the oil period. Take a real good look at what i am saying.
Was able to get back into the primary yesterday, Only have 3,800 miles on the SE COMP thought it was higher miles, I used HD Formula plus in the primary from date of install as recommed here by Ron I think. Well all was good in there, no wear as like in the pics of the rusty looking ones. I did cut the grooves anyway and reassembled. Time will tell , but it looks like I will not be back into the primary for a long time, I hope! Thanks Doc The thrust washer was also in good shape and reused, I did install a new bolt.
Quote from: makstv5 on December 14, 2010, 06:21:51 AM
No it looks like rust but is not. I am not mistaken if you look at the parts mentioned the compensator sprocket does not clamp the space shut at any time . The sliding cam is what the springs are pushing against the compensator sprocket, the sliding cam is what moves back and forth with the torque of the engine on the shaft extension. At no time is the compensator sprocket you are grinding the grooves in closing the gap on the shaft extension,it is pressed tightly against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer. You would need to explain how the compensator sprocket can move against the sliding cam which is being pressed by the springs against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer and bolt before you say i am mistaken. There is 34 thousands on the side once the whole unit is tightened down and even if it did close the gap you are saying there would be 34 thousands on the thrust washer side for the oil to get in and that is not happening with the spring pack against it. Sorry but you need to check out what parts are moving in the compensator. That compensator sprocket does move towards the spring pack to close the gap it only turns under torque and pushes the sliding cam against the springs that are up against the rotor assembly. Maybe the grooves do allow some more surface to get the oil in there but at no time is that compensator sprocket clamped tight on both sides to stop the oil period. Take a real good look at what i am saying.
I clamps the thrust washer. Sorry... since you have one and know about it all... then explain the 'rust'. Take yours OFF of the bike and inspect the bores. See any black 'scuff' marks? Those scuff marks are where the fretting is occurring. Me? I don't know if the grooves work or not... all I know is I, me, personally, threw TWO SE Comps in the trash. I get what you are saying about BOTH sides... but... I kinda trust Ron and HIS findings on this. He threw a comp in the trash, too. You, OTOH wish to argue.
If you do NOT wish to try the fix, then don't. But do not argue the fix, until you come up with something better, either. Arguing against without more to add doesn't move the thread forward.
I cannot explain... I'm looking for a FIX. So I do NOT know why this 'fix' would work when the back is fully exposed. But then... YOU explain why it frets with the back exposed. I , myself, feel Ron hit on it by aligning the grooves with the spokes. Its not like the center section EVER runs in oil (most don't think of this and feels it DOES run in the oil... which it does NOT... only thing that runs in the oil is bottom of clutch pack... the rest is 'splash lubed'). So YOU take a 'REAL' look at how the primary lubes itself. Ever replace primary oil? Where is the 'fill line'? Above that line is SPLASH LUBED. So where is the splash lube getting into the exposed parts? Huh? Only 'lube' on that end is brought over by the primary chain and is flung off of the chain..
So, HIS fix would allow oil picked up buy the spokes, from the chain, to penetrate between inner and outer while sitting, and since the open back is flush with no spokes to drip it into... no help there. I hate this compensator but with the stock one wore out... what choice is there?
Sure the grooves can help not argueing that at all but saying that the side clearance closes up is just plain bad information. There is just always side clearance on that compansator sprocket that is all i'm saying. It is written up in this thread that the grooves are the only way that oil can get inside the sprocket bore this is totaly wrong period Can the grooves allow more? Sure they can, did i take it apart to do them hell no. I'm not arguing i'm telling you what i am looking at with a engine and compensator sitting right in front of me. Anyone that looks and understands how the compensator ramps work under load would understand what i am saying. I myself will at some time will chuck the compensator sprocket in my lathe and cut a spiral oil groove in the inner bore to try to keep some lube in there that seems to be getting wipped off. Plenty of oil getting splashed around in that primary just got to keep some in the right places.
makstv5,
You make good points.. I'm thinking the grove might help pull fresh oil through the race.. The one side does have some clearance..
Good to see another set of eyes looking at this..
Anyone thinking about fixing the stock comp.. Easy way would be to add Bellveille washers. You'd have to take the crimps out of the housing..
Max
Quote from: rbabos on December 07, 2010, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: timtoolman on December 07, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
I just bought a new s.e. comp 40274-08 and the 3 spokes on the gear have flat surfaces machined at the inner part of the spokes where they join at the center hub, dont see them on the pics on this thread? did they revise this part because of no lubrication? or are the grooves still needed?
i just looked at the pic again the flat spots are at the place in the pic where the red lines are where the spokes meet the center
I have those flat spots as well. If the contact area of the bore to the extension shaft form a metal to metal seal oil can't get in. I realize there are small sprials in the thrust washer but they must be too small to let oil in there. Best the sprials in the composite washer can do is add a touch of lube to the washer itself and none to the bore. By adding grooves on the other end no air can be trapped to resist oil entering the bore. More free flowing both ends.
Ron I went to grind those grooves in you have and found that i all ready have 34 thousands clearance between the face of the shaft extension and the face of the compensator gear. The spring pack keeps that comp gear tight against the thrust washer and sprocket retainer with the sliding cam so i would always have 34 thousands gap between the face you grind on the comp sprocket and the shaft extension face for lube to get in. I had Red line MTL in the primary and had that rusty sht in there when i pulled it the other day. There is room for the oil to get between without the grooves but your grooves must be letting a wee bit more if the rusty goo is gone. I'm going to use a heavier oil than the mtl or tranny fluid in there for now and see what happens
got the grooves milled. harder than hammered hell. one was 58 rockwell the other was 62 rockwell
went .050 deep and 3/16 wide @ the spokes. :nix:
That rusty looking "Potty mouth" is strange in there can't see how oil is not flushing it out cause my two have plenty of side clearance. Those ground slots adding whatever for added oiling surface amaze me in stopping the fretting. I can see if the side clearances where tight but they are not. I'm going to try different primary oil and see if i can stop it then i will cut a spiral oil groove in the bore of the comp sprocket to see if that will hold a little more oil in there on the bearing surfaces that are getting wiped dry. If either of those don't work i will add the grooves in the sprocket spokes.
This find is interesting. I had .005 end play on mine with a new plastic thrust washer. :scratch:
The spring pack pushes agains the cam first then the gear, up against the thrust washer. I agree .034 is plenty of room for oil to go into the bore. Could this explain why some don't trash themselves and the tighter ones do? Interesting. Maybe the end play clearance increase was MoCo's solution ? I do know .005 wasn't cutting it, even though this clearance is constant in operation.
Ron
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 14, 2010, 04:32:47 AM
Ron
seems you suggested to me that I change the order of installation. I would have to go back and re read e mails to find it. was going to do this before installing these two SE comps. but what do you have to say about what Steve has found in his measuring (.034 gap.) got the sprockets going with me to work today to mill the grooves. shouldn't hurt anyway,but what say you?
Wasn't I that said reassemble differently. I assembled it according to the sketch.
Ron
I had the rusty looking goo with .034 and there is no apparent wear on the thrust washer within two thousands of the new one i have. Could to light of fluid cause this alone? When i saw your grooves i couldn't get to the shop fast enough to rip in and start modifying. Once i saw how much space there was for oil to get in i said what! And have been trying to figure how with such little movement back and forth that the bearing surface is having such a hard time not getting some sort of mist /splash to keep that area flushed out. I mean there is no problem in any other area of the compensator like the ramps or splines of the sliding cam. They show contact wear but shiny. It is amazing if those grooves allow just that much more surface area to get oil in an already pretty sloopy side clearance as on mine. But i do agree .005 has got to be a problem if i am getting the fretting with .034
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 14, 2010, 11:22:38 AM
makstv5,
You make good points.. I'm thinking the grove might help pull fresh oil through the race.. The one side does have some clearance..
Good to see another set of eyes looking at this..
Anyone thinking about fixing the stock comp.. Easy way would be to add Bellveille washers. You'd have to take the crimps out of the housing..
Max
Originally I did something similar to my stock unit. Problem is even adding .032 shim behind the pace seriously reduces the limit of travel. It did reduce the start band and trans clatter some but wasn't a total fix. Thicker belvilles would have to be custom made since they were odd ball sizes but the same problem occurs as in lack of sprocket rotation before the pack bottoms out. I gave up and bought the SE . Seems if I remember correctly the .032 shim knocked off 1/4 of the normal rotation. Same problem if you try parralel stacking the discs instead of series. You run out of rotation.
Ron
Could the differences you guys are getting be related to the 2 different torque methods. When using the locking bar, you get rotation of the compensator (not really sure what actually occurs when this happens but I assume it hits its limit of travel). Using the box wrench it does not look like this occurs.
What if any effect if any does this have on the inner workings of the compensator if comparing the 2 methods of torquing?
Quote from: makstv5 on December 14, 2010, 01:48:44 PM
I had the rusty looking goo with .034 and there is no apparent wear on the thrust washer within two thousands of the new one i have. Could to light of fluid cause this alone? When i saw your grooves i couldn't get to the shop fast enough to rip in and start modifying. Once i saw how much space there was for oil to get in i said what! And have been trying to figure how with such little movement back and forth that the bearing surface is having such a hard time not getting some sort of mist /splash to keep that area flushed out. I mean there is no problem in any other area of the compensator like the ramps or splines of the sliding cam. They show contact wear but shiny. It is amazing if those grooves allow just that much more surface area to get oil in an already pretty sloopy side clearance as on mine. But i do agree .005 has got to be a problem if i am getting the fretting with .034
Curious, what fluid were you using? Reason I ask is because even with grooves and running no oil will enter the bore due to centrifugal force flinging oil away from the center. On shutdowns oil will run in but the lighter oil will burn up in short order where as the heavier Formula+ hangs around longer. Maybe the edges of the grooves trap some oil on rotation if oil gets flung near them at lower rpms. Hard to say exactly. Such a simple part yet such a pain in the ass to lube it when running.
Ron
Quote from: 01spring01 on December 14, 2010, 02:34:12 PM
Could the differences you guys are getting be related to the 2 different torque methods. When using the locking bar, you get rotation of the compensator (not really sure what actually occurs when this happens but I assume it hits its limit of travel). Using the box wrench it does not look like this occurs.
What if any effect if any does this have on the inner workings of the compensator if comparing the 2 methods of torquing?
I would say none. It will still run dry in the bore with either method.
Ron
QuoteSame problem if you try parralel stacking the discs instead of series. You run out of rotation.
That was what I was thinking.. You could parallel stack but use less pairs.. You could also cut some off the back of the cam to pick up space.. Giving up travel for stiffness may be a good thing. Then it may not..
Max
Quote from: rbabos on December 14, 2010, 01:32:31 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 14, 2010, 04:32:47 AM
Ron
seems you suggested to me that I change the order of installation. I would have to go back and re read e mails to find it. was going to do this before installing these two SE comps. but what do you have to say about what Steve has found in his measuring (.034 gap.) got the sprockets going with me to work today to mill the grooves. shouldn't hurt anyway,but what say you?
Wasn't I that said reassemble differently. I assembled it according to the sketch.
Ron
:up:
sorry .thought it was you :nix:
maybe a thin shallow groove down the compensator bore in conjuction with the other ones might no be a bad idea then
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 14, 2010, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 14, 2010, 01:32:31 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 14, 2010, 04:32:47 AM
Ron
seems you suggested to me that I change the order of installation. I would have to go back and re read e mails to find it. was going to do this before installing these two SE comps. but what do you have to say about what Steve has found in his measuring (.034 gap.) got the sprockets going with me to work today to mill the grooves. shouldn't hurt anyway,but what say you?
Wasn't I that said reassemble differently. I assembled it according to the sketch.
Ron
:up:
sorry .thought it was you :nix:
Jim: At some point in time I might have made reference to how the springs compress in progression. The progession is not the same as they are installed. This might be where you could have got the impression I swapped things around, but no , it's original stacking.
Ron
Here's a little info in regards to fretting for those that want to read up on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting)
So fretting is rust..
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 14, 2010, 05:53:38 PM
So fretting is rust..
Max
Red oxide in it's true form. :wink:
Ron
QuoteJim: At some point in time I might have made reference to how the springs compress in progression. The progession is not the same as they are installed. This might be where you could have got the impression I swapped things around, but no , it's original stacking.
Ron
yep thats were I got turned around. THANKS!
Quote from: rbabos on December 14, 2010, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: makstv5 on December 14, 2010, 01:48:44 PM
I had the rusty looking goo with .034 and there is no apparent wear on the thrust washer within two thousands of the new one i have. Could to light of fluid cause this alone? When i saw your grooves i couldn't get to the shop fast enough to rip in and start modifying. Once i saw how much space there was for oil to get in i said what! And have been trying to figure how with such little movement back and forth that the bearing surface is having such a hard time not getting some sort of mist /splash to keep that area flushed out. I mean there is no problem in any other area of the compensator like the ramps or splines of the sliding cam. They show contact wear but shiny. It is amazing if those grooves allow just that much more surface area to get oil in an already pretty sloopy side clearance as on mine. But i do agree .005 has got to be a problem if i am getting the fretting with .034
Curious, what fluid were you using? Reason I ask is because even with grooves and running no oil will enter the bore due to centrifugal force flinging oil away from the center. On shutdowns oil will run in but the lighter oil will burn up in short order where as the heavier Formula+ hangs around longer. Maybe the edges of the grooves trap some oil on rotation if oil gets flung near them at lower rpms. Hard to say exactly. Such a simple part yet such a pain in the ass to lube it when running.
Ron
I had the Redline MTL in there and now it is the formula plus in with the new engine and compensator. I noticed that the rusty looking stuff comes off on mine with steel wool and the bearing surfaces look fine under the magnifying glass that i looked it over with. I'll see how it does for a while using the formula plus.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 14, 2010, 05:53:38 PM
So fretting is rust..
Max Well that explains that pretty clearly. So if you can get enough lube in there no more Fretting? I didn't see where it mentioned lack of lube was that in there?
I went by the amount of scoring in the bore to figure the fretting thing out. Lots of scoring and lots of 'rust'.
Retarded reasoning would figure if I could eliminate the scoring.......
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc254/jbkaiser97/comp4.jpg)
I think this was with Redline Primary Oil.
Quote from: wurk_truk on December 15, 2010, 05:38:09 AM
I went by the amount of scoring in the bore to figure the fretting thing out. Lots of scoring and lots of 'rust'.
Retarded reasoning would figure if I could eliminate the scoring.......
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc254/jbkaiser97/comp4.jpg)
I think this was with Redline Primary Oil.
Boy, that sure is ugly. It seems if nothing else there's a fluids to avoid list with these things. My case atf, belray gear saver caused the same effect. Never quite got red right out to the sprocket teeth, but it wasn't in as long as yours was before I caught it.
Ron
I was amazed that this had happened at all. I made the grooves on mine with a air die grinder. I am also sending the pictures off to HD in the hopes of receiving a new one under warranty.
However, I did clean mine back up and was surprised howquickly the scuffing was cleaned off by Emery paper. Thanks to this forum and the help from all. I am also going to use the primary redline oil again. We will see how this works :beer:
Why not just put in a new stock one when it wears out. If all you had to replace was the part with the springs in it, it couldn't cost much, maybe 75 bucks ( cheaper than a front tire and about the same time to change ). If installing the SE was a done deal then sure change it but doesn't seem to be. Just curious.
SR
Quote from: sandrooney on December 16, 2010, 04:23:59 AM
Why not just put in a new stock one when it wears out. If all you had to replace was the part with the springs in it, it couldn't cost much, maybe 75 bucks ( cheaper than a front tire and about the same time to change ). If installing the SE was a done deal then sure change it but doesn't seem to be. Just curious.
SR
Because in spite of the lubrication issue with the SE compensator - it provides substantially more protection from shock load to your crankshaft than the stock compensator. That's why the MOCO came out with the SE compensator and that's why new bikes now come with the SE compensator in stock form... If the lubrication problem at some point proves fatal to the compensator, I'd rather replace it vs. have a crankshaft failure... FWIW - JMO
Thanks sc00ter. I had read a while back that they actually add more shock to the crank since they are stiffer. Don't know how true that is I believe I read it on this forum. They do cure the kickback bang when starting. I had one on my 07 Ultra.
Thanks,
SR
Quote from: sandrooney on December 16, 2010, 06:21:24 AM
Thanks sc00ter. I had read a while back that they actually add more shock to the crank since they are stiffer. Don't know how true that is I believe I read it on this forum. They do cure the kickback bang when starting. I had one on my 07 Ultra.
Thanks,
SR
So with the cush-drive in the back is the stock comp fine... Seems like 2 comps are better than 1.. as long as they don't increase drive-line slack..
My riding buddy gets the starter knock occasionally on his 103..but his battery is over 4 years old. When I went to 103, I got it occasionally if I didn't use compression releases but fixed it with a timing change... Now, the bike starts fine, even without the compression releases.. Any one up grading the starter cables?? They look pretty wimpy..
Max
I ran the stocker after pulling the SE and ... it had an issue or two, but driving down the road was fine. It's lately developed clunky slappy kinda noise. This winter I will install a new comp... just undecided on which one.
May go with a gear, since I have IDS, but unsure of that, too.
Quote from: feedsack on December 16, 2010, 03:52:34 AM
I was amazed that this had happened at all. I made the grooves on mine with a air die grinder. I am also sending the pictures off to HD in the hopes of receiving a new one under warranty.
However, I did clean mine back up and was surprised howquickly the scuffing was cleaned off by Emery paper. Thanks to this forum and the help from all. I am also going to use the primary redline oil again. We will see how this works :beer:
I thought of 'cleaning' the bore out on the one pictured above... but came to the conclusion that would change the clearances between the two pieces and said heck with it. I installed the stocker back on. THe above pic WAS with Redline primary oil. I'm going to go against Barnett's advice and run Formula+.
THIS time I WILL take a die grinder and cut a relief in my damn inner primary so I can quit pulling THAT each time something like this comes up! Im such a dumbass. LOL!!!
QuoteTHIS time I WILL take a die grinder and cut a relief in my damn inner primary so I can quit pulling THAT each time something like this comes up! Im such a dumbass. LOL!!!
very easy to do. ink the gasket surface, use the rotor as a template, scribe the needed clearance and buzz it away.
Quote from: sandrooney on December 16, 2010, 06:21:24 AM
Thanks sc00ter. I had read a while back that they actually add more shock to the crank since they are stiffer. Don't know how true that is I believe I read it on this forum. They do cure the kickback bang when starting. I had one on my 07 Ultra.
Thanks,
SR
Wouldn't doubt for a minute that you read it....but nope....just the opposite. The SE comp reduces shock to the crank....
John Hoban at Darkhorse recommends the SE comp over the stock comp. Even on welded cranks... the stock comp will (could) twist the splines and the SE comp will not do that. Fairly stout build I would imagine.
twisted the splines on my stock 07 Hobanized crank on my 113,Hobans warrantied the crank no questions asked and then some,John recommended I use the se comp when I put it back together and I did,no problems since in 20000 kms ,I think what caused it mostly was throttle only tire spin when taking off and I did this quite regularly for about 25000 kms as I thought it was bullet proof,but eventually something is going to give and i guess the splines on the output shaft are the next weak link,I ride the bike normal now and all is good.
It will be interesting to see how the 2011 touring models work out with the new SE comp. I wonder what will be seen as to fritting? Doc
Quote from: HDDOC on December 19, 2010, 05:28:47 AM
It will be interesting to see how the 2011 touring models work out with the new SE comp. I wonder what will be seen as to fritting? Doc
Here's the comment I got from the service manager/shop foreman at the closest HD dealership when I showed him the "rust covered" parts for his future heads up:
When he saw the parts he was clueless as to what they were, so were the other mechanics that joined the conversation.
When they became aware the new bikes might have this problem, the general mood including the foreman is, "not to worry 10,000 miles will be over the two year warranty period for most of the bikers here, it's their dime".
There doesn't seem to be a "HD" bulletin on this yet.
Al
I agree they are counting on the clock running out on the warranty. That's why I'm going to be busting open my new 2011 RK with only a thousand miles on it to make these mods.
Why is it that the knowledge base on HTT seems to exceed what the tech's know?
Quote from: les on December 19, 2010, 07:35:39 AM
I agree they are counting on the clock running out on the warranty. That's why I'm going to be busting open my new 2011 RK with only a thousand miles on it to make these mods.
Why is it that the knowledge base on HTT seems to exceed what the tech's know?
Not sure the knowledge is any more but if we see a problem with something some effort is made to try and improve a suspect part. MoCo is well aware of each and every problem out there and as Eleft36 points out they play the numbers game and usually win. While grooving is an attempt to improve the oiling condition of this comp it's not the final solution. The only thing that would be 100% fix is a sealed bearing of some form that has it's own permanent lube. Kicking around the problem and considering babbit, bronze and even oilite bushings most likely all will fail in short order. This leaves a small sealed roller bearing setup as the only choice. Problem is, playing the numbers game it's cheaper for the MoCo to just replace any that might fail down the road than to develop a new comp at this time. Who knows, down the road the new improved comp might be sporting this feature but for now all we can do is try and extend the life of the existing unit by whatever means possible. Grooving is not the final solution but an attempt to improve things until the real deal comes along. Formula+ helps in two ways from what I've seen compared to atf as an example. Atf caused rapid bore wear and more than normal wear on the spokes from the cam. Amsoil 20/50 matched the Formula as far as lower wear, so viscosity is a major player when it comes to wear on the comp. Not pushing amsoil here, since any equivelent viscosity would work. Original SE comp I installed ran two years on ams with no noticable problems and a clean magnet at each change. One month with atf the magnet had more hair on it than I have on my head. Figured, well new chain and sprockets this might be normal but next month same thing. Don't need to be an Einstine to figure out there's a problem here. Pulling the cover I witnessed a comp similar to the one truc posted when I was doing some chain tensioner work. Put ams back in because I still had some around. Next month the magnet was back to being clean again. Eventually got around to pulling the comp and decided it was sloppy in the bore so it was replaced. Seeing the dry bore prompted the grooves and knowing Formla+ was acceptable as a trans lube figured it would give the bore and spokes some protection. Ran this for 3 months and just recently pulled the comp to inspect it. The magnet was normal, as in a very fine dust bead near the top, no large particals as with atf. Bore was damp with oil residue and the spoke contact points were polished as opposed to looking like a bastard file was dragged over them. Bottom line is I feel the lube of choice can be critical on the life span of this or stock comp, grooved or not. Down side is the clutch action goes for a chit with heavier viscosity but it's the lesser of two evils.
Ron
If formula+ slows the damage... HD dealers will surely be out of the warranty period by the time something shows up. 90% of owners simply ride with a Stage 1. WE, here on these forums, are a very small minority of riders. Most would never even KNOW about clutch upgrades, nor running ATF, etc.
Barnett told me without ANY hesitation... if I run Formula+ they won't cover any warranty on their discs. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
MTL is fine. What does Barnett say about that? And warranty????
We ride on thin ice with a lot of this stuff. In some cases we become the warranty insurance company and policy holder.
QuoteThe only thing that would be 100% fix is a sealed bearing of some form that has it's own permanent lube.
I doubt this would be the 100% fix,,Not even close.. Be my guest on trying it.. The problem is that the bearing would be able to support the axial loading required. Add a thrust surface and you are back to where you started except for the radial load.. Also you would then have a bearing that has limited travel.. Rocking the bearing back and forth, wears that balls and races in short order.. Bearings need to spin.. You might get some walking if you let one of the races float. Might make for longer life..
Best thing?
Go back to the old TC / evo comp... :wink:
Max
What about drilling holes instead of the grooving? There are a couple/few places in the engine where oil channel holes are drilled. If three holes were drilled in between the spokes, would that be a possible solution?
Quote from: Deweysheads on December 19, 2010, 08:57:03 AM
In some cases we become the warranty insurance company and policy holder.
and the guinea pigs, and the engineers, and...........
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 19, 2010, 09:03:54 AM
QuoteThe only thing that would be 100% fix is a sealed bearing of some form that has it's own permanent lube.
I doubt this would be the 100% fix,,Not even close.. Be my guest on trying it.. The problem is that the bearing would be able to support the axial loading required. Add a thrust surface and you are back to where you started except for the radial load.. Also you would then have a bearing that has limited travel.. Rocking the bearing back and forth, wears that balls and races in short order.. Bearings need to spin.. You might get some walking if you let one of the races float. Might make for longer life..
Best thing?
Go back to the old TC / evo comp... :wink:
Max
If the straight crank roller can stand the radial loads and equivilent roller in the comp would, but the area of bore would need to be redesigned to support the bearing . You are correct in the fact that localized small rotations will likely trash the bearing in short order, using the steering head as one such example. Then again looking at two stroke wrist pin needle bearings that rotate in a small range does seem to make it somewhat possible.
Ron
QuoteThen again looking at two stroke wrist pin needle bearings that rotate in a small range does seem to make it somewhat possible.
Yeah but the piston pins float and can rotate. Any kind of pin rotation lets the needles move around... One of the reasons. I mentioned floating a race..
Roller would work better than a ball.. How much? Don't know..
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 19, 2010, 12:48:53 PM
QuoteThen again looking at two stroke wrist pin needle bearings that rotate in a small range does seem to make it somewhat possible.
Yeah but the piston pins float and can rotate. Any kind of pin rotation lets the needles move around... One of the reasons. I mentioned floating a race..
Roller would work better than a ball.. How much? Don't know..
Max
Agree on the floating aspect. Most likely this woud be the make or break part of the concept since float would be pretty much non existant. Oh well, sounded good on the surface until you stuck a needle in my balloon. :hyst:
Ron
I drilled three holes 1/16 inch diameter into the middle of the bore. I am not adverse to trying anything new, i am adverse to trying something and telling others about it as if it is was a fix. I am still running the redline also. I will be pulling the prinary case in another 1000 miles so I will if I am able report back.
I too was thinking of drillling 2 small chamfered on the outer surface holes opposite from each other
Quote from: Deweysheads on December 19, 2010, 08:57:03 AM
MTL is fine. What does Barnett say about that? And warranty????
We ride on thin ice with a lot of this stuff. In some cases we become the warranty insurance company and policy holder.
Not so sure it is , if the pic truc supplied is an example of how the oil performed. Spokes take a beating as well as the bore from lack of shear protection of the oil.
Ron
i used mobil 1 syn trans fluid in my primary recommended by barnett with my add a plate kit, n tough stuff when it comes to shear resistance.? Maybe im wrong,? don't want to start a primary fluid discussion. But then a small hole would let the trans fluid in between bore and shaft of compensator for sure, maybe with a small scoop shape ground/machined to it to scoop oil as it turns???
Quote from: timtoolman on December 20, 2010, 02:24:10 PM
i used mobil 1 syn trans fluid in my primary recommended by barnett with my add a plate kit, n tough stuff when it comes to shear resistance.? Maybe im wrong,? don't want to start a primary fluid discussion. But then a small hole would let the trans fluid in between bore and shaft of compensator for sure, maybe with a small scoop shape ground/machined to it to scoop oil as it turns???
Maybe, but the bore is only half the problem regarding lube. In my case the atf allowed the cam which is harder than who knows what to grind a serious rough flat spot on a comp that was already broke in and polished on the spokes. Somebody who just machined the grooves claimed the gear to be 58-60 rc which is quite hard as well. A sudden increase in sliver debri on the magnet confirmed this after 1k. There's just no film strength to atf regardless of syn or dino squeezings. I run a Rivera Pro clutch which also recommends atf. Screw the warranty, I'm not changing comps every six months was my thoughts. Turns out Formula+ basically just turns the Rivera into a stock clutch feel with no other ill effects that I can see. Both Ams 20/50 or equivilent and Formla+ behaved exactly the same as in clutch action but the multi is a touch better when it gets cold out until things heat up a bit. I'm only presenting my findings, but the owner can use whatever lube turns their crank, and if it works without causing damage continue with it.
Ron
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Nope. Tried that and it just burns it out after a while and runs on metal to metal again.
Ron
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Real good after it gets into the clutch... :wink:
Max
Quote from: rbabos on December 20, 2010, 03:43:36 PM
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Nope. Tried that and it just burns it out after a while and runs on metal to metal again.
Ron
What did you try?
Bostik Never Seez reg grade protects parts against extreme heat - 1800 degrees; corrosion, rust and pitting; seizure and carbon fusion.
http://www.neverseezproducts.com/regulargrade.htm (http://www.neverseezproducts.com/regulargrade.htm)
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 20, 2010, 05:31:46 PM
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Real good after it gets into the clutch... :wink:
Max
if there's no oil getting in there, it can't wash the never seez out.... :nix:
Quoteif there's no oil getting in there, it can't wash the never seez out.... :nix:
Good point..
Max
so what the final conclusion after all this is said and done????
Just found a thread on another site where a guy has 15k miles and has the same wear marks on the spokes as the one in the pics from page 8 of this thread. Am waiting for a reply on what oil he used in the primary (it was not red). Is there any answer to prevention of that?
I think we all know the ultimate answer :beer:
I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon :nix:
Quote from: slik rik on December 21, 2010, 05:08:51 AM
I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon :nix:
I believe these pics are what you seen on the other site, Does not look pretty. Doc
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Posted pics on wrong reply. Sorry Doc
Just to add a little more to the thinking of "outside the box". Keeping the area of the mating surfaces lubed, appears to be the common goal. What if 3 chamfered holes were drilled in between the compensating sprocket teeth downward, exiting in the area of the sprocket where the cam slider makes contact? And 3 more holes exiting 60* from the holes just drilled? The chamfer would be angled to take advantage of the rotational force with the hopes of supplying oil to the area of the cam slider. This oil could reduce the amount of friction caused from the slider and compensator, thus reducing the amount of metal particles that could lead to premature wear of the compensator bore. Of course this could not be done if the holes were to cause undo stress to the compensator. What if?
Max, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain. Just a wild guess.
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 19, 2010, 09:03:54 AM
QuoteThe only thing that would be 100% fix is a sealed bearing of some form that has it's own permanent lube.
I doubt this would be the 100% fix,,Not even close.. Be my guest on trying it.. The problem is that the bearing would be able to support the axial loading required. Add a thrust surface and you are back to where you started except for the radial load.. Also you would then have a bearing that has limited travel.. Rocking the bearing back and forth, wears that balls and races in short order.. Bearings need to spin.. You might get some walking if you let one of the races float. Might make for longer life..
Best thing?
Go back to the old TC / evo comp... :wink:
Max
I believe when all is said and done this is a design/metallurgy problem and while we will come upon different ways to extend the life of this product the fix will only come when Harley adds a new letter to the end of the part number as they so often do. On a good note that may be sooner then later now that they will be trying to drag race baggers with this product.
As a stop gap has anyone one tried a high pressure baked on coating? I have used it on cams, lifters, transmission gears and shafts with good results. Also might try having Cryogenic treated.
I think HD addressed the issue of bore lubrication with the slotted thrust washer. I believe the thrust washer design, while adequate for clean environments, did not allow enough oil flow to the bore in such a harsh (dirty) environment. My thoughts are to try and reduce friction between the slider and the sprocket, thus reducing the amount of contaminates. With that said, more frequent primary oil changes when new and definitely when new components are installed. Clean up the environment in which these parts are operating in, along with proper lubrication may lead to less part failures.
QuoteMax, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain.
I'm not sure that drilling the hole would help.. I'm just guessing though.. Drilling hole down the middle of the spoke would only serve to pull the oil out due to centrifugal force. After all the cranks needs to spin.. Personally I like the ground groove on the thrust face. If you look at the pics above. The spot that had the fretting was the outer edge of the thrust surface. Seems to me that the slot on the thrust surface would help to pull oil through along the thrust surface. Any movement of the sprocket would work the oil between the thrust surfaces. Since the primary chain and rotor are tossing oil around, it might be advantageous to trough some of the oil into the compensator assy. The early TC / evo comps hung out there some where the SE one is buried under the sprocket.
As far as the spoke galling goes on the picture above, I'd suspect that the surface finish and hardness. These surfaces are not even so point contact pressures can be very high. The point contact can be high enough to for some types of oil to not work well, Might be worth while to polish or lap the spokes to the cam with some 600 grit lapping compound..
A bearing or cam expert could probably point out if I'm full of it or not..
Max
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 06:35:47 PM
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 20, 2010, 05:31:46 PM
Quote from: Billy on December 20, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
I wonder how a liberal coat of never sieze will work on that surface. :scratch:
Real good after it gets into the clutch... :wink:
Max
if there's no oil getting in there, it can't wash the never seez out.... :nix:
The heat and back and forth rotation eventually beats it all out. I mean all of it.
Ron
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on December 21, 2010, 11:52:16 AM
QuoteMax, What do you think drilling a hole, starting at the top where the compensator chain goes, and drilling straight down threw the 3 spokes and into the bore.That way it seems that the oil hole will be gitting more oil from off the chain.
I'm not sure that drilling the hole would help.. I'm just guessing though.. Drilling hole down the middle of the spoke would only serve to pull the oil out due to centrifugal force. After all the cranks needs to spin.. Personally I like the ground groove on the thrust face. If you look at the pics above. The spot that had the fretting was the outer edge of the thrust surface. Seems to me that the slot on the thrust surface would help to pull oil through along the thrust surface. Any movement of the sprocket would work the oil between the thrust surfaces. Since the primary chain and rotor are tossing oil around, it might be advantageous to trough some of the oil into the compensator assy. The early TC / evo comps hung out there some where the SE one is buried under the sprocket.
As far as the spoke galling goes on the picture above, I'd suspect that the surface finish and hardness. These surfaces are not even so point contact pressures can be very high. The point contact can be high enough to for some types of oil to not work well, Might be worth while to polish or lap the spokes to the cam with some 600 grit lapping compound..
A bearing or cam expert could probably point out if I'm full of it or not..
Max
Max: I agree in the fact the spoke contacts are not hard enought to handle the loads. Thin oils will accelerate wear substantially. The cam itself seems to only polish itself up being so much harder and seem up to the task . However making the sprocket harder may not be a wise decision either. As far as the pics that are posted, the rotor has no problems. This face is where the extension shaft butts up against and the discs sit on top of the extension shaft . The cam is typical and has likely very little wear on it other than surface polishing. The gear however has quite a bit of material chewed off from the cam rubbing it. They will all do this, and depending on lubes use some will wear quicker than others. There will be some initial wear after a new install to mate the spokes to the cam lobes and the wear should reduce to some extent. This is why I mentioned to index the cam and gear so they go back together and match the wear points. Mixing it up could cause more pressure on one spoke than the other and place uneven pressure on the bore as the springs compress.
Ron
Thanks Doc thats the post. Turns out he used syn 3.
Quote from: les on December 19, 2010, 09:05:21 AM
What about drilling holes instead of the grooving? There are a couple/few places in the engine where oil channel holes are drilled. If three holes were drilled in between the spokes, would that be a possible solution?
If these holes were drilled, then what "might" happen. If the spoke were at high noon when stopped, then the oil would run down the spoke, down the two archs of the journal, and into the two holes. The holes would deposit the oil into the middle of the journal.
Quote from: 01spring01 on December 21, 2010, 02:02:41 PM
Thanks Doc thats the post. Turns out he used syn 3.
Interesting. Wasn't syn3 accepatable for gear boxes at one time and then problems started to occur? Personally, I look at the comp as a big ugly gear as in how the cam rubs the spokes.
Ron
Quote from: slik rik on December 21, 2010, 05:08:51 AM
I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon :nix:
:agree:
This comp was designed for, and was OE on, the Rocker... big ass tire and NO IDS. After awhile, and now it is OE on baggers. MOCO will be forced into an upgrade eventually, I hope, simply because the bagger crowd rides the wheels off their bikes, while Rocker owners do what? 1K a year?
here are some more.
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Quote from: wurk_truk on December 21, 2010, 04:39:46 PM
Quote from: slik rik on December 21, 2010, 05:08:51 AM
I dont believe there is a conclusion other than the need to get more lube to that area, but I believe that the "fixes" presented here are there to show what can be done. I think that time will tell with these mods, just hoping that these posts will continue and a real conclusive fix for this will be stumbled upon :nix:
:agree:
This comp was designed for, and was OE on, the Rocker... big ass tire and NO IDS. After awhile, and now it is OE on baggers. MOCO will be forced into an upgrade eventually, I hope, simply because the bagger crowd rides the wheels off their bikes, while Rocker owners do what? 1K a year?
Most likely the problem is noted and will be common enough that a new design will come out. Could take a couple of years to exhaust present supply and will be sneaked in as if there never was a problem in the first place. You know, just like there never was a problem with the stock comp starting in 07. Will be interesting to see what the actual engineered factory fix will look like.
Ron
Well we are running one on that 120 with the supercharger That will be a good test for it :)
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on December 22, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
Well we are running one on that 120 with the supercharger That will be a good test for it :)
Yup. That should just about cut the spokes right out of it, or at least bend them. :hyst: Good thing tire spin or a wheelie control the max stress that can be applied to it but on a dyno this safety valve is cancelled out :wink:
Ron
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on December 22, 2010, 11:37:16 AM
here are some more.
Steve, how many miles on that one? What fluid was run?
ATF and about 2500 miles, FLuid wise it does seem that ATF does not provide enough lube for this type of comp. Funny as you never saw this type of wear on the ramps on the old version. Not like fluid is not getting on the ramps... I think Don said that the metal was softer or something like that seems to be spot on.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on December 23, 2010, 08:35:56 AM
ATF and about 2500 miles, FLuid wise it does seem that ATF does not provide enough lube for this type of comp. Funny as you never saw this type of wear on the ramps on the old version. Not like fluid is not getting on the ramps... I think Don said that the metal was softer or something like that seems to be spot on.
The SE compensator is designed to support up to 7x the energy absorption capacity over the original stock compensator. More clamp force equals more wear potential of the ramps/cams.
Not that I want to turn this thread into an oil debate, but I would concur that ATF does not provide effective lubrication. I run Red Line V Twin Primary Case Oil with satisfactory compensator cam/ramp wear results.
"Red Line ® Motorcycle V-Twin Primary Case Oil with ShockProof® features microscopic solid medium to provide cushioning between gear teeth, while maintaining lower drag. V-Twin Primary quiets chains and offers improved wet-clutch operation."
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
Quotethe one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
One counter point to make is probably the same for twisted cranks.. Some ramps mate better than others.. The stockers I had didn't look bad at all for 11K.. I'm not using ATF also...
Max
So what is the concensus?
Switch out a stock (2010 and older) for a SE which will end up trash?
Keep the stock until it breaks and use another stock or SE (like the 2011 touring)?
Quote from: BAKON on December 23, 2010, 02:08:43 PM
So what is the concensus?
Switch out a stock (2010 and older) for a SE which will end up trash?
Keep the stock until it breaks and use another stock or SE (like the 2011 touring)?
Good question. It seems the best we can do with the present products is buy time. I like my Harley but damn it, this part should last at least until the engine is worn out. Next MoCo attempt will be #3 for this problem area. I wonder if they can get it right this time? :scratch: At least with the SE version it works but with a short life span. Personally I have no use for the stock comp since it does nothing well and is likely more abusive to the crank than no comp at all. :potstir: Sometimes I have to wonder if going to the clutch basket area might be a wiser location. EVO industries was working on this last year but haven't heard much about it lately. Basically a cush drive in the clutch basket would give a bigger area to work with too.
Ron
:bf:
I can foresee a hydraulic dampener styled similar to a torque converter with a spring centering a paddle or moving baffle with orifices between fixed chambers working like a shock absorber. :scratch:
Merry Christmas
Al
Quote from: BAKON on December 23, 2010, 02:08:43 PM
So what is the concensus?
Switch out a stock (2010 and older) for a SE which will end up trash?
Keep the stock until it breaks and use another stock or SE (like the 2011 touring)?
After following this thread I have the same question.
think I will install a luberfiner external zerk :idea: LOL
I am so afraid to pour anything in these two I am putting together. formula + for the comp or B&M trick shift for the pro clutch. damned if you do and damned if you don't. Damn-it Ron :banghead: :nix: :scratch:
I have a 2009 Ultra stage II from day one 103 with 255 cams and sometimes get the big clunk and grind when starting. I only have 14,000 miles on it. Thought this was normal, but this thread is changing my mind. I drained my oil Formula + and there is one sliver of metal about 3/8 of an inch long and some small metal residue. I pulled the cover and I can see little flecks of metal stuck to inside of cover. Will pull the compensator apart in the next few days, I have several rusty spotted areas on the rotor that I can see. Talked to dealer and they will send a trailer for it if I want as it has about a month of warranty left. I will know more after I get it apart if I will let dealer take job or not.
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 23, 2010, 10:34:21 PM
think I will install a luberfiner external zerk :idea: LOL
I am so afraid to pour anything in these two I am putting together. formula + for the comp or B&M trick shift for the pro clutch. damned if you do and damned if you don't. Damn-it Ron :banghead: :nix: :scratch:
Don't know what to tell you . Moco built the pot. I just came along to :potstir:
Ron
IMHO... if I had a newer bike with an SE Comp stock? Heck YES keep the SE Comp in there! From what it looks like to me is that there is no catastrophic failure. It wears and lets the problems known through noise and/ or vibration.
I feel this is NOT happening to every comp. Kinda crap shoot... and to those that HAVE had it seem to be strident... when maybe we are the few that don't get it. Just like cranks. They know about the cranks and those numbers ARE acceptable to themselves.
I'm sure MOCO knows and the comp will be looked at.
Since I will have one in hand... I'm going to groove mine, but wouldn't remove it if acted normal.
What's it going to hurt adding 3 or 4 more ounces to the primary?
I fill as to specs, 32 ounces.
Looking in the primary case with a flashlight the oil did not run up under the chain toward the auto tension-er, as far as I could see. It was touching the underside of the clutch basket.
I order to have the oil to run up under the chain and fill over the clutch basket lip I add between 3 or 4 more ounces.
The clutch functions normally and the primary in general sounds the same.
I use Formula-+
I also modified the sprocket retainer, thrust washer and grooved the sprocket.
Merry Christmas
Al
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Quote from: Eleft36 on December 25, 2010, 07:09:10 AM
What's it going to hurt adding 3 or 4 more ounces to the primary?
I fill as to specs, 32 ounces.
Looking in the primary case with a flashlight the oil did not run up under the chain toward the auto tension-er, as far as I could see. It was touching the underside of the clutch basket.
I order to have the oil to run up under the chain and fill over the clutch basket lip I add between 3 or 4 more ounces.
The clutch functions normally and the primary in general sounds the same.
I use Formula-+
I also modified the sprocket retainer, thrust washer and grooved the sprocket.
Merry Christmas
Al
Good idea and nicely done. Every little bit helps.
Ron
Got mine apart the stock one has some wear, but the spring pack is junk I can push in and collapse the pack really easy and it likes to stick compressed. This is the first one I have had apart that is held on with a bolt instead of the big nut, what kind of idiot would design it so you have to modify or remove the inner primary to take the rotor off. Guess I might as well go with the SE Compensator and while its apart a chrome inner primary,
Quote from: randyman on December 25, 2010, 07:44:05 AM
Got mine apart the stock one has some wear, but the spring pack is junk I can push in and collapse the pack really easy and it likes to stick compressed. This is the first one I have had apart that is held on with a bolt instead of the big nut, what kind of idiot would design it so you have to modify or remove the inner primary to take the rotor off. Guess I might as well go with the SE Compensator and while its apart a chrome inner primary,
That is a piss off for sure. When I first did mine I ended up covering all the innards up and used a drum sander on the front edge of the primary until the rotor slipped by. Several others have done this as well. There's plenty of sealing surface left and should the need for the rotor to be pulled at a later date the process goes smoothly, as it should. As for what kind of idiot, can you narrow it down a bit? MoCo has several of them employed there. :hyst: . The primary is one example and a couple more would be having to rip half the bike appart to remove the starter on a softail or my all time favourate is the oil filter location.
Ron
Let me run this by you guys. i worked on nucs in the navy for 21 years (nuc welder) and assisted with many maching mods on many pieces of equipment, I contacted a buddy who ran the nuc machine shop and he was thinking of a shallow groove machined around the inside middle of the bore or the shaft (either one) that rides in the compensator bore and drill a small hole that will intersect with the new machined groove and countersink the hole on the outside so it can scoop up oill and let in into the hole down through to the groove between the shaft and compensator bore as it turns ??????????. That way it can ride on a film of oil from the groove fed by the small hole, kinda like a car crankshaft main bearing setup minus the bearing but with a groove
sounds like a easy fix? :nix: :nix:
And as mentioned above add a few more ounces of fluid in conjunction
One problem is the front only gets the oil that rides up with the chain and the spinning throws it all off on to the covers. The only time it runs down the sprocket and spokes is when you shut it off and then everything is hot and thin and it just drips right back out.
almost any of these things will help to some extent but still no cure.
The fretting on the spline section, and lack of lube (or intolerance for incorrect lube) in this area I believe is fixable, either by intruducing a journal or by some other wetting method. I for one am not overly concerned with this aspect of the matter.
The severe wear on the 3 sprocket arms from the compensator cam pawl is highly disturbing (german dude -CVO board pictures) and leads me to believe there is a metallurgy issue between these mating parts.
I am also believing that this issue may be associated to the numerous 2010-2011 MY noise complaints annomaly: "Bike makes a thumping-pulsing-metallic noise during idle - sounds like coming from transmission".
I am wondering if the stackup of the SE comp is incorrect, and that there needs to be more installed pressure between the sprocket and the cam pawl unit?
Just talking out loud.
I just did some experimenting with observing the oil dripping down my new se comp spoke into my freshly cut grooves using a dremel with a small cut off wheel.
Had it completely dry, held it upright like it would be in the bike using just the shaft extension and the comp sprocket held firmly together. 1 big drop of cold 75/140 gear oil and in about 20 seconds I had a drop in the bore.
Cleaned it up and made sure this occured with each spoke in the upright. Had to cut a little deeper to get past the chamfered edge just slightly into the bore or the drip just ended up on the inner edge and not in the bore.
Next I dried it all up and did a drip on each spoke and rotated the whole assembly so each spoke ended up vertical while turning the comp about 1/8 turn back and forth. After about 30 seconds I took it apart and the film of oil made it about 3/4 of the way onto the shaft extension completely around the bore. Nice! Now hopefully the thrust washer lets enough oil by for the last 1/4. :wink:
Do I still need red locktite if the new bolt has the patch? If so, do I put it on the patch?
Scott
i believe with everything spinning as fast as it does oil will find its way in there, it has to
Quote from: 01spring01 on December 26, 2010, 11:58:46 AMDo I still need red locktite if the new bolt has the patch? If so, do I put it on the patch?
Scott
The patch on the bolt is all you need.
Do you have any pics. to post?
pretty cool postings on this subject
Quote from: timtoolman on December 26, 2010, 10:33:32 AM
Let me run this by you guys. i worked on nucs in the navy for 21 years (nuc welder) and assisted with many maching mods on many pieces of equipment, I contacted a buddy who ran the nuc machine shop and he was thinking of a shallow groove machined around the inside middle of the bore or the shaft (either one) that rides in the compensator bore and drill a small hole that will intersect with the new machined groove and countersink the hole on the outside so it can scoop up oill and let in into the hole down through to the groove between the shaft and compensator bore as it turns ??????????. That way it can ride on a film of oil from the groove fed by the small hole, kinda like a car crankshaft main bearing setup minus the bearing but with a groove
sounds like a easy fix? :nix: :nix:
And as mentioned above add a few more ounces of fluid in conjunction
Tim,
The Bpt Miller cuts in the photo(sprocket retainer) come in the rotation precisely before the grooves in the sprocket and are chamfered toward the sprocket, hopefully will deflect oil to the sprocket instead of centrifugally forcing it away.
Only 150 miles on it since, all sounds well.
Al
Thanks i already cut grooves in . I was just looking at another method that might work well with the grooves or as a stand alone mod
Quote from: 01spring01 on December 26, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
Do I still need red locktite if the new bolt has the patch? If so, do I put it on the patch?
Scott
Just the patch. Too much gunk and the bottom of the threads in the crank can be filled and bolt won't bottom out.
Im not sold on over filling primary. The oil is there as... basically, a coolant for the discs. Whatever lubing occurs is based upon small amounts through the 'splash' method.
To bury the clutch pack, etc in oil may have unintended consequences.
No pics, but it looked like the pic on page 4 except straight and where the red marks are. You can see the depth in that pic, I went just a little deeper into the bore. Was a little afraid there would be a edge left over that might hang things up. Could not feel anything and it turned just as good as prior to the cuts.
Scott
I did about the same my pic are on page 5 and wurk truck has a point on to much primary fluid, i think manual says too much will cause certain clutch issues its been a while since ive read it
I think the groove in the center of the bore is a good idea. More oil would be retained for a longer period of time. Anything that will help get oil to the bore and keep it there longer adds life to it. Often wondered what rpm centrifugal force overpowers the ability of the splash to lube it. Pretty sure at 6k rpm it's getting none but it could be getting some oil at idle, and definately on shutdowns.
Ron
I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but my cure was to take a bevel spring out of an old comp spring cover. Nest it into my stock '07 compensator. I ground a notch into the outer edge and slipped it in. Maybe got 10k since the fix, no problems I know of! With 11:1 CR I had to try something, done 5-6 more since.
I bought a SE comp, about 6 months ago, but after what i have read I think I'll leave well enough alone! Bob
Does the oiling problem exist with the stock comp, or just the SE comp?
Quote from: les on December 28, 2010, 01:30:12 PM
Does the oiling problem exist with the stock comp, or just the SE comp?
Neither one get oil but the stock comp's bore is not subjected to as high of rotational loads since it bottoms out sooner and the sprocket turns along with the crank rather than pulsing forward and backward from the cam fighting the heavey SE springs.. I've seen some evidence of fretting but nowhere near as much.
Ron
Ron, thanks for that explanation. I have been following this thread since the begining because I just had a SE Compensator installed in my 2008 Ultra. I have the original OEM compensator that came out of the bike with about 14,000 miles on it and can not see any wear marks or rust. Your explanation makes sense.
I had the SE Compensator installed due to an engine upgrade I did about 5,000 miles ago (upgrade= 93Hp/109ftlbs of torque) and was getting some banging at startup.
Roger
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on December 28, 2010, 02:30:07 PM
Ron, thanks for that explanation. I have been following this thread since the begining because I just had a SE Compensator installed in my 2008 Ultra. I have the original OEM compensator that came out of the bike with about 14,000 miles on it and can not see any wear marks or rust. Your explanation makes sense.
I had the SE Compensator installed due to an engine upgrade I did about 5,000 miles ago (upgrade= 93Hp/109ftlbs of torque) and was getting some banging at startup.
Roger
I don't understand (ANYBODY ANSWER please) why is the start-up bang a problem???
I have not found it to be a problem and have 20,000 on my 09FLHR.
I can understand why the Heaver and different design SE COMP. eliminates the Bang but what damage is done as I think a lot of the bang is in the starting of the motor, As Mine always Fires Right Off.. Kinda like that Bang..
The SEcomp has shown Other problems with it and the Stated post above here by rbabos saying that the SE shows problems when "Working and Heating" differently than the Weaker Stock Comp..
Thanks in advance
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on December 29, 2010, 11:09:57 AM
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on December 28, 2010, 02:30:07 PM
Ron, thanks for that explanation. I have been following this thread since the begining because I just had a SE Compensator installed in my 2008 Ultra. I have the original OEM compensator that came out of the bike with about 14,000 miles on it and can not see any wear marks or rust. Your explanation makes sense.
I had the SE Compensator installed due to an engine upgrade I did about 5,000 miles ago (upgrade= 93Hp/109ftlbs of torque) and was getting some banging at startup.
Roger
I don't understand (ANYBODY ANSWER please) why is the start-up bang a problem???
I have not found it to be a problem and have 20,000 on my 09FLHR.
I can understand why the Heaver and different design SE COMP. eliminates the Bang but what damage is done as I think a lot of the bang is in the starting of the motor, As Mine always Fires Right Off.. Kinda like that Bang..
The SEcomp has shown Other problems with it and the Stated post above here by rbabos saying that the SE shows problems when "Working and Heating" differently than the Weaker Stock Comp..
Thanks in advance
signed....BUBBIE
BUBBIE: Here's what Ive witnessed about the stock comp and frankly there should be more problems than what actually show up. First of all the stock comp only does a compensating job up to medium loads and then starts hitting the wall going solid. No compensating at high loads. The bang you hear is from the starter rotating the sprocket and forcing the cam to compress the spring discs one way to some extent. When the engine fires it rapidly rotates the sprocket the other way and since it was preloaded from the other direction forces the cam in with enough force to smash the spring discs flat against the rotor. Lucky the materials are hard enough on the rotor face and crank spacer that they don't get beat in from all these impacts. Second thing that amazes me is the magnets stay attached in the rotor since the starting bang is somewhat equivilent to beating on the rotor housing with a hammer. Notice the warning on the rotor housing?
It's when hp/torque is increase that more issues show up. Great gobs of torque at lower rpms forces the weaker spring pack to hit the wall on engine pulses. Instead of the large pulse being dampend from the comp, the sprocket side of the cranks receives an impact which could slip the flywheel at the crank pin on the left wheel. Then you have the classic runout that has plagued these engines . Lugging is generally bad, and with the stock comp and lugging or accelerating hard from low rpms can be a death sentance for the crank.
I have not witnessed damage from start knock, but I got tired of explaining the noise. As well in my case being a softail the SE comp was needed to eliminate the infamous 5th gear clatter the 07s were famous for. Between that and now having a 113ci there's no going back regardless of how imperfect the present SE comp is. If you can ignore the bang, have the cush drive sprocket and keep the revs up so no lugging occurs the the stocker will work fine. Problem is, not everbody uses good engine management techniques. :wink: The SE helps the crank survive better with people that don't know what lugging is.
Ron
Ron, thanks again for the follow-up explanation (great explanation). I did not know how serious the bang was but did not like it and thought it might be doing damage that would cost me dearly down the road. I have only been able to ride about 50 miles (weather!!= snow!) since the SE Comp installation, but the bang has subsided.
Thanks again,
Roger
Because of this thread I took apart my 2011 Road King. The bike has just short of 1,000 miles on it. At 846 miles I changed the primary oil (first primary oil change) to B&M Syn Trick Shift ATF.
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I will probably end up having grooves cut along the spokes and will switch to AMSOIL 20W-50.
Quote from: les on December 29, 2010, 09:19:15 PM
I will probably end up having grooves cut along the spokes and will switch to AMSOIL 20W-50.
I ran that oil for quite a long time with no grooves and there was only slight signs of fretting. Not enough to get really excited about but it when I went to atf, then belray due to clutch manufacturers recomendations within a week the sprocket was turning colour. The piss thin oils were showing a lube problem area not quite as obvious with thicker fluids. The other area of concern was the ip bearing with atf. It was new but sometimes when hot it would make a grrrrrr sound especially at idle. Once I switched oils I never heard it again, no matter how hot it got. As much as I liked the clutch action with atf or equivilent it just wasn't worth possibly trashing everthing else in the primary. While on the subject of oils I'm not 100% sure of this but I think Formula is similar to a none dispersant oil. Most modern engine oils have dispersants in them to float pariticals and keep them in suspension so the filter can remove them. None dispersant oils allow the crap to settle wherever it falls and stays there. My thinking is, with no filtration in the primary does one want the ip , clutch hub bearing to be exposed to debri floating around in the oil? The other obvious thing is per volume additives take away some ability to lube. Since it's a none combustion enviroment in the primay with no filter, detergent and dispersant additives might not be the optimum choice here. I've heard many wives tales on what Forumla+ actually is but still don't really know for sure. Not meaning to :potstir: with all this oil crap but I find it interesting none the less.
Ron
I must have missed something along the line......but what was wrong with the old compensator like on my ancient 05 Glide? Why the change?
Rick
Quote from: Eglider05 on December 30, 2010, 06:39:09 AM
I must have missed something along the line......but what was wrong with the old compensator like on my ancient 05 Glide? Why the change?
Rick
07 up changed to a 34 tooth sprocket and engine went to 4.375 stroke. Somebody decided with the primary ratio change and longer stroke a new comp was needed to tame the shock loads. So the result was one that don't really work and one that works but don't last long.
Nothing wrong with your comp and the design seemed to work good for the intended purpose.
It just won't fit these engines.
Ron
Ron, so to somewhat of a conclusion on the oil used, what is your recommedation for the oil that we should use in the primary to limit the problems encountered with the SE Comp.? I am currently using the Redline Primary oil since installing my SE Comp about 50 miles ago.
From your experience and information you have provide in this thread, I highly respect your opinion on this.
Thanks,
Roger
I TOO use Only Redline products... I ALSO complement this forum on the QUALITY of the Members who post here and on the other threads... Very Polite to one another and a Jab now and then just for minor corrections but OPINIONS here seem to be Spot On....
I'm glad I came iNTO the conversations here and will try to do Good by You Knowledgeable members.. I have been here on the side lines for quite a while. and on another forum mostly BUT Not as IMPRESSIVE as the hdTALKing Here.. (pun intended)
:potstir: sturing the SOUP POT is a good thing here. So,,,,
I also would like the ?? oil best to use ON the stock Comp as well as the SE.. I will grove the SE like shown and do ALL 6 places. I also use Yellow label MTL...
Thanks
signed....BUBBIE
A VERY Special thanks to rbabos/Ron for His quality answers to me here and taking time to PM me with More.. GOOD STUFF!
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on December 30, 2010, 07:38:26 AM
Ron, so to somewhat of a conclusion on the oil used, what is your recommedation for the oil that we should use in the primary to limit the problems encountered with the SE Comp.? I am currently using the Redline Primary oil since installing my SE Comp about 50 miles ago.
From your experience and information you have provide in this thread, I highly respect your opinion on this.
Thanks,
Roger
I've never tried Redline since it's not available locally, so I can't comment on it. All I know for sure is light viscosity sucks and the 20/50 or Formula+ seem to more comp friendly. Other than suspecting an oil that's suitable for the transmission seems to ease up on the SE problems somewhat based on my first SE comp which ran Ams 20/50 for it's life. Atf pretty much killed it when I started using it. For now all I can suggest is think of the workings of the comp as transmission related. Hmmm. No wonder atf failed the grade. Wonder how long the 6 speed would last using that? In the end a person has to make their own choice, but I based my choice on the trans theory. Present comp seems to be happy with it so far but more miles are needed to know for sure. A guy like truk packs on the miles big time. Likely he would be the first to find out what's happening, good or bad.
Ron
Ron, please don't take this as arguementative, but the Redline V-Twin Primary Case Lube's viscosity is labeled as SAE 70W80 as noted on the below technical information that I have copied from their website. If the Amsoil 20W50 has worked the best for you, wouldn't it be logical to assume the Redline V-Twin Primary Case oil would be at least comparable or even maybe better than the Amsoil 20W50??
I realize from your posts that you have not had any experience with this product, just asking your opinion.
MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION
API Service Class: GL 4
Viscosity Grade: SAE 70W80
Vis @ 100°C, cSt: 10.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt: 56.2
Viscosity Index: 183
Brookfield Viscosity,
Poise: 120 @ -40°C
Pour Point, °C: -50
Pour Point, °F: -58
Flash Point, °C: 232
Flash Point, °F: 450
Thanks again,
Roger
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on December 30, 2010, 03:16:11 PM
Ron, please don't take this as arguementative, but the Redline V-Twin Primary Case Lube's viscosity is labeled as SAE 70W80 as noted on the below technical information that I have copied from their website. If the Amsoil 20W50 has worked the best for you, wouldn't it be logical to assume the Redline V-Twin Primary Case oil would be at least comparable or even maybe better than the Amsoil 20W50??
I realize from your posts that you have not had any experience with this product, just asking your opinion.
MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION
API Service Class: GL 4
Viscosity Grade: SAE 70W80
Vis @ 100°C, cSt: 10.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt: 56.2
Viscosity Index: 183
Brookfield Viscosity,
Poise: 120 @ -40°C
Pour Point, °C: -50
Pour Point, °F: -58
Flash Point, °C: 232
Flash Point, °F: 450
Thanks again,
Roger
Thanks for the specs. I assumed it would be thinner than that. It would seem that it is gear oil and should be a good choice as it's viscosity is in the 50 ballpark. If I could get it, I'd try it. As for the ams 20/50 being best for me, the ams and Forumla behave the same way so I can't say if one is better than the other in this application from what I've seen so far. Would be nice to see the specs on Formula+ and compare to Redline.
Ron
I have used both the Redline MTL and the HD Formula plus in my primary. The Formula Plus is quieter than the MTL but shifts are not as good and loud also. Staying with the Formula Plus for now to see how the SE Comp with the grooves hold up. Doc
Ron, after reading your last post, I went looking for some information on the HD Formula + and below is the only thing I could come up with. As you will note they do not provide the SAE rating other than "Viscosity, ASTM D 445" whatever that mean to the layman. There was one other post that stated the Viscosity was within the SAE 50 range.
Harley Davidson Formula+
Application: recommended for heavy-duty service in manual transmissions where the manufacturer normally recommends either engine oils or GL-1 lubricants.
Specific Gravity: 0.857
Pounds per Gallon: 7.14
Viscosity, ASTM D 445,
cSt at 40°C: 168.04
cSt at 100°C: 20.10
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270: 139
Brookfield Viscosity, ASTM D 2983,
cP at -26°C - 28,800
cP at -40°C - n/m
Pour Point, ASTM D 97, °F (°C): -60 (-51)
Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °F (°C): 507 (264)
Roger
Roger
Thanks. I'll try and figure out what the diff is.
Ron
Well after pondering the two specs of Redline and Formula I've come the the conclusion I can't go anywhere with the info. Just not enough to base an opinion on.
So, considering two important areas of operation and specific needs in the primary which is clutch operation and antiwear for the comp, bearings etc certain requirements in the oil need to be looked at. The oil should not contain friction modifiers so the clutch won't slip and a viscosity suitable for easy clutch plate separation for smoother quieter shifting. High levels of zinc to help prevent metal to metal wear, as in the comp spokes of the SE comp. This is maybe leading me in a different direction than using the Formula+ especially if I can't find the zinc rating on it. As an example the longest run on my orignal SE comp was with Ams 20w50 mcv which contained 1336 ppm of zinc and 1160 ppm of phosphorus. Had I not trashed the damn thing by using atf with is less than 10 ppm of zinc, I might not even gotten this deap into this comp problem. Think of the spokes of the SE comp as a flat tappet cam regarding the need for this sacrificial layer to prevent metal to metal contact wear. I read somewhere that the minimum level for flat tappets cams is 1000 ppm before they eat themselves up. So, more research is needed to find the best overall lube here. Anybody know the zinc levels in Redline and Formula+? This might be the smoking gun as to which lube wins.
Ron
Ron, take a look at this website page. "The Benefits to Using Red Line's V-Twin Transmission and Primary Case Fluids" is the heading for the article. It also specifically mentions the dual function required in the primary case (with pictures). However, I am not sure whether or not Zinc content is mentioned. I am in the process of reading the article myself.
This may not answer your specific concern regarding the amount of Zinc, but it is rather informative anyway.
Happy New Year Ron, and thanks again for your input on this subject. Even if a solution is not specifically found, you have contributed a lot of knowledge to everyone here that has followed this thread.
Roger
http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=49 (http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=49)
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on January 01, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
Ron, take a look at this website page. "The Benefits to Using Red Line's V-Twin Transmission and Primary Case Fluids" is the heading for the article.
This may not answer your specific concern regarding the amount of Zinc, but it is rather informative anyway.
Happy New Year Ron, and thanks again for your input on this subject.
Roger
This is why I've used Redline Products for the many Years and many different bikes.
I have ONLY used the MTL in my big bikes Primary. The last HOT bike that i built, was the 2000 FXDS and bought New... I put over 117,000 miles on that bike with many different engine builds BUT NEVER change out the clutch.(.)
It was working as good as ever when I traded it off for the new 09 FLHR.
signed....BUBBIE
http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=49 (http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=49)
Bubbie, I have been researching/reading about the Redline product for the last two hours on the internet via search engine subject matter and to the best of my ability to compare, it appears the MTL and the V-Twin Primary Case oil is the same product. The MTL comes in the white bottles and the V-Twin Primary Case oil comes in the black bottles.
I also have use all Redline products in all three holes in my HD's and like the product very well. The most dramatic difference I encountered was when I put the Redline Heavy Duty Shockproof in my transmissions. Smoother, quieter and easier to find neutral.
Happy New Year Bubbie, I was happy to see you join this forum as I have followed some of your posts on the other forum where you have been much more active.
Roger
Roger, BUBBIE: I did research the mtl prior to posting and while it does mention zinc the level might not be enough. Most oils contain zddp (zinc) and modern oils levels have been pulled back to 8-900s due to epa when used in the combustion enviroment . This low level will trash the older style flat tapped cams so some resort to additives to increase the level or hunt down specific oils to with over 1000 ppm to have no issues with lifters and cams. The comp cam and spokes seem to mimmick the same operation of these flat tappet units, so I'm thinking the right lube might be the ticket for the spoke wear. The bore lube issue between all the different recent mods might have a good choice for success. Time will tell on that one but the spoke wear issue is my present goal and as yet unresolved. A good bore and the spokes sawed in half is not much good either :teeth:.
I agree Redline primary fluids have been hugely successful, that is until the SE comp showed up which seems to require special lube needs. I remember seeing one comp that was disgusting, as in all red on the outside. Going back through the threads I came across truk's comp pic in a previous post and remember the possibility of Redline mentioned. If in fact this was Redline it would indicate this particular lube is not the choice for this particular comp. So far the only one I'm quite sure of is the ams 20w50 with 1336 ppm which I ran the longest on the original SE install and the Formula+ which I've run about 5k on a new comp after the comp grooving. Makes me wonder how much zddp is in Formula+, however the answer to minmizing spoke wear will be proportional to the levels of zddp in the fluid. I only mention Amsoil because that's the crap I choose to use and I'm happy with it. I believe Mobile1 was very close in zddp levels as well some in the 1800-2000 ppm range , however the hunt is on for that one specific oil that has it all for both the clutch and comp. If anybody finds it before I do, please post it an put me out of my misery. :hyst:
Ron
Ron, it is interesting that you mentioned Mobil 1 having 1800 - 2000 ppm of zddp. In my last two or so hours of reading and searching on the internet, I did come across a statement that suggested the zddp to be in the 1200 - 1400 ppm range, but did not provide any information as to a product that actually complied with that criteria.
Again, thanks for you input and knowledge in the area. If I do come across information that I feel is relavent I will surely post accoringly. And, if sometime in the future you come across a product you feel is a "good to go" product I hope you will post same so all that have followed this thread can try the product at their discretion.
Thanks again,
Roger
Quote from: geezerglide11441 on January 01, 2011, 04:51:13 PM
Ron, it is interesting that you mentioned Mobil 1 having 1800 - 2000 ppm of zddp. In my last two or so hours of reading and searching on the internet, I did come across a statement that suggested the zddp to be in the 1200 - 1400 ppm range, but did not provide any information as to a product that actually complied with that criteria.
Again, thanks for you input and knowledge in the area. If I do come across information that I feel is relavent I will surely post accoringly. And, if sometime in the future you come across a product you feel is a "good to go" product I hope you will post same so all that have followed this thread can try the product at their discretion.
Thanks again,
Roger
Roger: Don't think I mentioned Molil 1 vtwin levels, since I just found it other than maybe comparable to ams. Vtwin formula has the higher level compared to the regular Mobil1, which I never checked but suspect it's the figures you posted. Mobil1 vtwin is 1700 zddp and 1600 phosphorus. I think I mentioned my desire for 1800-2000 zddp in the post but research has shown that around 2000 ppm there can be some adverse effects.
I find this interesting in the fact that if the ams did a decent job with the comp at 1336 zddp level the Mobil1vtwin with 1700 might even do a better job. Not about to switch the engine over to Mobil on that fact alone , since zddp is not the total solution to wear but only ingredient. In the engine there may never be enough friction in the components to actually make use of the zddp additive but in the case of the comp it might make a difference due to how the components interact with each other. No question theres friction going on by looking at the spokes. I just can't nail the numbers on Formula+ as a comparison. Must be a secret or something. :banghead: I'll check a few more out and if anything else jumps out as a possible choice I'll pass it on. Here's the Mobil specs.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf)
Ron
Valvoline makes a high zinc content syn racing oil (not street legal, lol) in 5w-30, 10w-30 and 20w-50. It shows Zn as 0.14% of weight, also says "not for use in wet clutch applications", not sure why though.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/9 (http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/9)
click on proudct info pdf.
Quote from: Billy on January 01, 2011, 06:26:00 PM
Valvoline makes a high zinc content syn racing oil (not street legal, lol) in 5w-30, 10w-30 and 20w-50. It shows Zn as 0.14% of weight, also says "not for use in wet clutch applications", not sure why though.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/9 (http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/9)
click on proudct info pdf.
I did see that one and saw the wet clutch comment. Probably has friction modifiers in it which can cause clutch slippage. Not street legal usually implies the zinc level is too high for epa and it will also trash cat converters in time. Second reason is some racing oils are non detergent, in racing this is not a high priority, plus detergent additives occupy space that is better served with something that actually lubricates.
Thanks of jumping in and helping with the search.
Ron
Quote from: autoworker on December 23, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
I had .034 side clearance between the shaft extension and face of the sprocket gear which i thought would be enough for some lube. I've had Redline MTL in the primary which is the same as the Redline HD primary and had the rusty fretting going on in there after less than 2k. So i would say that Atf and Redline MTL cause the same wear damage to the SE compensator and i would not put MTL back in my primary. I will leave Formula+ or a 20-50 in there from here on out. This kind of has me concerned about the use of Redline Shockproof heavy in my transmission after the fretting and spoke wear from using Redline MTL in the primary. It looks like transmission fluid but it says that it has protection like 80-90 gear oil on the bottle. Clutch felt good but compensator looked bad.
Quote from: makstv5 on January 02, 2011, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: autoworker on December 23, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
I had .034 side clearance between the shaft extension and face of the sprocket gear which i thought would be enough for some lube. I've had Redline MTL in the primary which is the same as the Redline HD primary and had the rusty fretting going on in there after less than 2k. So i would say that Atf and Redline MTL cause the same wear damage to the SE compensator and i would not put MTL back in my primary. I will leave Formula+ or a 20-50 in there from here on out. This kind of has me concerned about the use of Redline Shockproof heavy in my transmission after the fretting and spoke wear from using Redline MTL in the primary. It looks like transmission fluid but it says that it has protection like 80-90 gear oil on the bottle. Clutch felt good but compensator looked bad.
Is the spring pack installed as pictured here, because mine has "0" no clearance. Tightening the bolt compresses the spring pack slightly to the point it can't be moved according to paragraph 8 in the install sheets.
Al
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: makstv5 on January 02, 2011, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: autoworker on December 23, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
I had .034 side clearance between the shaft extension and face of the sprocket gear which i thought would be enough for some lube. I've had Redline MTL in the primary which is the same as the Redline HD primary and had the rusty fretting going on in there after less than 2k. So i would say that Atf and Redline MTL cause the same wear damage to the SE compensator and i would not put MTL back in my primary. I will leave Formula+ or a 20-50 in there from here on out. This kind of has me concerned about the use of Redline Shockproof heavy in my transmission after the fretting and spoke wear from using Redline MTL in the primary. It looks like transmission fluid but it says that it has protection like 80-90 gear oil on the bottle. Clutch felt good but compensator looked bad.
Don't think you have to worry about the shockproof. That has proven itself for a long time without issues. So has the mtl from what I've read, that is until this new pesky comp showed up.
Ron
Quote from: Eleft36 on January 02, 2011, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: makstv5 on January 02, 2011, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: autoworker on December 23, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
I had .034 side clearance between the shaft extension and face of the sprocket gear which i thought would be enough for some lube. I've had Redline MTL in the primary which is the same as the Redline HD primary and had the rusty fretting going on in there after less than 2k. So i would say that Atf and Redline MTL cause the same wear damage to the SE compensator and i would not put MTL back in my primary. I will leave Formula+ or a 20-50 in there from here on out. This kind of has me concerned about the use of Redline Shockproof heavy in my transmission after the fretting and spoke wear from using Redline MTL in the primary. It looks like transmission fluid but it says that it has protection like 80-90 gear oil on the bottle. Clutch felt good but compensator looked bad.
Is the spring pack installed as pictured here, because mine has "0" no clearance. Tightening the bolt compresses the spring pack slightly to the point it can't be moved according to paragraph 8 in the install sheets.
Al You would have to assemble it without the springs to check your side clearance. The springs push the cam against the sprocket gear which holds it tight against the plastic thrust washer. You have clearance but you don't know what it is i see.
Quote from: rbabos on January 02, 2011, 12:12:32 PM
Quote from: makstv5 on January 02, 2011, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: autoworker on December 23, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
I have mentioned this before....the one problem I see is that the load is concentrated to a much smaller area especially on the sprocket side because they are not mating ramps as was the case on the original compensator(s) that previous versions have.
I had .034 side clearance between the shaft extension and face of the sprocket gear which i thought would be enough for some lube. I've had Redline MTL in the primary which is the same as the Redline HD primary and had the rusty fretting going on in there after less than 2k. So i would say that Atf and Redline MTL cause the same wear damage to the SE compensator and i would not put MTL back in my primary. I will leave Formula+ or a 20-50 in there from here on out. This kind of has me concerned about the use of Redline Shockproof heavy in my transmission after the fretting and spoke wear from using Redline MTL in the primary. It looks like transmission fluid but it says that it has protection like 80-90 gear oil on the bottle. Clutch felt good but compensator looked bad.
Don't think you have to worry about the shockproof. That has proven itself for a long time without issues. So has the mtl from what I've read, that is until this new pesky comp showed up.
Ron
Well all seemed fine until i took it apart to install the new engine and saw the rusty fretting so no more MTL for me in there. The new engine came with a new SE compensator in the crate so i just put that on with Formula + in the primary. I only had the MTL in there 1700 miles and the compensator was looking bad.
Did you do any grooving or trying it as is with Formula+?
Ron
I didn't see this thread till after i put it together. Only have 170 miles on the new engine and compensator so i'm not sure whether i should run it in the formula+ or take it apart and do your grooves plus cut a oil groove inside the sprocket gear with a carbide boring bar on the lathe? When i was tearing the 96'' out and saw the red sht on the compensator it caught my eye right off. I just put the SE compensator in there this summer and it had a good amount of fretting for under 2k miles with MTL. I see in this thread some are talking about drilling oil holes in the sprocket,little to hard for drilling i think don't you?a
I've backed off the idea of drilling holes. After talking with the guy who will be cutting the grooves in my SE comp sprocket, we've decided it's not worth the risk of weakening the sprocket with the holes.
What kind of drill bit were you planning on using? i think you would be using an EDM machine to put holes in that sprocket or screwing around with coolant and a masonary bit.
Quote from: makstv5 on January 02, 2011, 05:16:25 PM
What kind of drill bit were you planning on using? i think you would be using an EDM machine to put holes in that sprocket or screwing around with coolant and a masonary bit.
Sorry, I didn't get that far. Backed off the idea before then.
I personally see no gain in drilling holes from the teeth to the bore, which is good because the task would be next to impossible. Doubt oil would ever travel down the holes and the suction effect from the sprocket trying to expel the air in the holes would likely be too weak to create enough suction behind it to draw oil in from around the bore area. Where it might, and I say might work is if 1/8" holes were done from the the area where the roller of the chain contacts the sprocket to the bore. If there is enough constant supply of oil on the outer edge of the sprocket the chain roller might act as a small piston pump each time it rolls over the holes. The 1/8" holes would have little impact on overall strenght of the sprocket but at least for me, it's too complex of a task to undertake based on a 50/50 shot of working.
Ron
While grooving may help with fretting, it there is still 0.035 clearance on the sprocket, seems to me that not enough oil is reaching the inner part of the gear hole.. Fretting itself is a sign of not enough oil and not the quality of the oil.. Gauling, Spauling are signed of poor lubrication quantities with too high contact pressures,, Seems to me the first thing to do is get oil to the location then start looking at the oil quality.. Slots ain't gonna hack it there if there is no oil to route or catch. IMO Since this is a plash system, the primary cover needs a trough to catch oil and route oil to the comp gear first..
Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on January 03, 2011, 06:50:44 AM
While grooving may help with fretting, it there is still 0.035 clearance on the sprocket, seems to me that not enough oil is reaching the inner part of the gear hole.. Fretting itself is a sign of not enough oil and not the quality of the oil.. Gauling, Spauling are signed of poor lubrication quantities with too high contact pressures,, Seems to me the first thing to do is get oil to the location then start looking at the oil quality.. Slots ain't gonna hack it there if there is no oil to route or catch. IMO Since this is a plash system, the primary cover needs a trough to catch oil and route oil to the comp gear first..
Max
I may or may not have mentioned the oiler tube on this forum but yes it is a consideration I have down the road if upcoming testing fails to deliver the results I like to see. It's basically a half round tube attached to the outer cover. It will collect the splash and run the excess oil over the top of the thrust washer. Most will fling out but some should travel to the bore. Since the cover is a fixed location as well as the crank the tube end could be parked a few thou over the thrust washer/end cap to get the most effect. Depending on clearances, the crank c/l could be transfered via a custom made transfer point to the cover forming a center punch mark at a point where the cover almost contacts the gasket. If there's at least 1-1.5 clearance the cover could be drilled and the tube attached with a nifty acorn nut or something. If the clearance is less a longer tube running along the side of the cover with a 90* bend to the comp should do it. This would feed a lot of oil depending on length and slope you choose to run it at.
I'm hoping it doesn't get to that point of needing it, but yes I've thought of it.
As for the oil quality, I don't agree. Run atf and Forumla and compare at 500 miles. The comp does get some oil even in unaltered state but the light oil has no shear strength to carry the lube quality for any lenght of time. The main problem area is the spokes. Even with the oiler tube this won't address the inside area of spoke contact. Using atf or equivilent these spokes actually make a grinding/ crunching sound when the engine is turned with the rear wheel. This sound also happens on most normal shutdowns. This does not happen with the ams 20/50 or Formula, never. Surface tension and shear stability is way better with these oils.
Ron
Ron,
We're on the same page.. My point was grooves, slots, holes won't help the cam/spoke wear. That is definitely a oil properties problem.. More oil probably won't help that issue.. Fretting is a lack of oil issue.. which can be improved upon with the trough.. I do like the idea of slot on the side though as they could help pull oil through the inner gear surface.. Not sure groves are needed inside as the fit is probably loose enough..
Max
The fit inside is about .003".
Thanks for posting.. Max
Put mine together today with SE Compensator and chrome inner primary. Definetely sounds different in primary, but starting is vastly better now. Grooved in three spots as per the pictures and filled with Syn 3 HD oil.
Quote from: randyman on January 05, 2011, 04:57:07 PM
Put mine together today with SE Compensator and chrome inner primary. Definetely sounds different in primary, but starting is vastly better now. Grooved in three spots as per the pictures and filled with Syn 3 HD oil.
randyman: I don't know this for sure since I've not used Syn3 but at best it might have a GL-1 rating and failed as a trans lube from some of the reports I've read. Forumla+ is rated as GL-1 but tests out as GL-3. Way better lube for the comp in my view, and is trans friendly also. In the end it's you bike and your call on the fluid. Just passing some info for thought.
Ron
Ron
Now I am confused is it good or is it bad?
Quote from: randyman on January 05, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Now I am confused is it good or is it bad?
All I will suggest is for the appication it might not be the best choice. Here's my take on the situation. The comp would be really happy with a GL4 or5 but the wet clutch enviroment dictates what can be used which causes a compromise in the best fluid for both comp and clutch. At one point SYN3 was put in some trans and problems started to show up. Dealers to my knowledge no longer recommend using it in the trans. If it's not good enough for the gear box it won't do a great job at stopping wear on the spokes of the SE comp. Quite sure the single grade Forumla+ will do a better job between these two choices even though it's dino oil. It's more purpose formulated for the job.
Ron
Ok so here we go around in a circle formula+ is good for wear protection, barnett say to use atf for their clutches? which i have in, i use syn mobil 1 atf
Quote from: randyman on January 05, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Now I am confused is it good or is it bad?
I tried syn III it both bikes and both started slipping the clutch with in the first tank of gas.
The one I had to take apart and wash the clutches out before it would stop. I went with
formula + and no problems clutch wise. Not a slam to any product just one guys experience.
This is not comp related, but it is fluid related and may help with your decision .
I will take my primary off and check the SE comp for the fretting. Ran Belray SAE80 trans lube for more than 40,000 miles except a few miles with Dexron III. Will report with pics next week.
If there is a problem, I replace the parts and start using 10W50 Belray synthetic. Should help the cam wear somewhat, does not produce clutch problems and will likely be better to get into the nooks and crannies of the comp.
Come to think about it, I could drill a big f$cking hole in the primary just above the comp and put a manual oiler on it. Problems is the excess oil in the primary after some time. Wintertime, wonderful.
I have been running the torco v primary oil. With a primo pro clutch and have had no issues at all. Bike is not a monster but is making 115/123 . I noticed zero change from stock comp to se version in my own bike.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 06, 2011, 08:11:39 AM
I have been running the torco v primary oil. With a primo pro clutch and have had no issues at all. Bike is not a monster but is making 115/123 . I noticed zero change from stock comp to se version in my own bike.
Good choice. Notice it has a GL-4 rating . :up: :up: What's the viscosity of this oil?
Ron
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I pulled my primary cover off today and took the SE compensator apart. There was only a small amount of rust? on the bearing journal on the shaft extension and inside the sprocket itself. I've only put on 8000 miles since I put the SE comp on. I'm using Spectro primary oil. Still haven't found anyone making a 30 tooth sprocket for the SE comp. Talked to Evo Industries today to see if they had one in the works but they said it would double the price and he didn't think they would sell in today's economy.
Quote from: timtoolman on January 06, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Do I detect frustration? :scratch:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 06, 2011, 04:48:46 PM
Quote from: timtoolman on January 06, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Do I detect frustration? :scratch:
Ron
Yeah I guess some. I'm going to put the grooves in my sprocket like you did and this will fix the fretting. And since you're not willing to make-up these kits I'll get it done at the shop I've done business with for a long time. Do you think the Se sprocket will get too weak cutting the boss small enough for a 30T sprocket?
Quote from: geezer ron on January 06, 2011, 05:21:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 06, 2011, 04:48:46 PM
Quote from: timtoolman on January 06, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Do I detect frustration? :scratch:
Ron
Yeah I guess some. I'm going to put the grooves in my sprocket like you did and this will fix the fretting. And since you're not willing to make-up these kits I'll get it done at the shop I've done business with for a long time. Do you think the Se sprocket will get too weak cutting the boss small enough for a 30T sprocket?
Ron: I can't picture the size relationship between the parts to make a call on the strength. After our discussion the other day I'm thinking a bigger issue would be weld distortion on an already sized bore. Remember this thing is heat treated also, so if you shop has cnc capability making an new complete unit out of 4140 and then heat treating it after might end up being a better choice. Then again, the first one could be fabbed up and used as a test bed to see how it works. I welded up a stock comp gear to the extension last year for testing. I no longer want an engine without a comp. :hyst: Way too damn pulsey especially with the 34 tooth on a softail with no ids sprocket. Keep in mind the grooves only aid somewhat in the fretting situation. It's a combination of grooves and the correct fluid type to get the best results at this point. I've personally ruled out Spectro as my choice in the primary since any test reports I've seen on it shows it don't perform all that great in regards to shear strength. This could be a major player in regards to spoke wear.
Ron
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 06, 2011, 08:01:26 AM
Quote from: randyman on January 05, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Now I am confused is it good or is it bad?
I tried syn III it both bikes and both started slipping the clutch with in the first tank of gas.
The one I had to take apart and wash the clutches out before it would stop. I went with
formula + and no problems clutch wise. Not a slam to any product just one guys experience.
This is not comp related, but it is fluid related and may help with your decision .
Interesting, I run syn three in the primary on both of my bikes and haven't noticed any slippage out of the clutch? One bike is a stage II 103 and the other a stage II 95.
Yes At times, spend money on a "better" compensator, and problems still pop up. then confusion on whats the better primary oil so barnett clutches are happy so they hold stg 4 107's torq. and still keep the S.E. compensator lubed and happy so it doesnt grind its self to a slow death, with the metal from that taking out the new clutches out eventually. thats all. nothing major, thanks for asking :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Many times you cannot feel clutch slippage however on a dyno you can see it on the graph. If the pack is smoked and the clutch will not hold well then you know that is going on :smileo:
Quote from: timtoolman on January 07, 2011, 12:33:53 AM
Yes At times, spend money on a "better" compensator, and problems still pop up. then confusion on whats the better primary oil so barnett clutches are happy so they hold stg 4 107's torq. and still keep the S.E. compensator lubed and happy so it doesnt grind its self to a slow death, with the metal from that taking out the new clutches out eventually. thats all. nothing major, thanks for asking :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Trust me, I know exactly how you feel. Don't know how many times I wanted to dump the bike and get something metric. Sometimes the aggrivation is overwhelming, but doing a rollon against a Yamaha 113 raider and watching him disappear behind you....... PRICELESS.
It will all work out eventually. Compared to the 5th gear trans clatter I have removed, the crappy 07 gearing, the SE comp problems are a minor glitch.
Ron
I planned on installing a SE compensator today and found that one of the rotor magnets shed several pieces off the edge due to the enclosed bolt hammering on it during shipping.
(People may want to inspect the compensator assembly when they receive it.)
Then I decided to wash my wallet in the washing machine also. :bf:
I guess it's going to be one of those days.
Glad I'm in a good mood today at least. :bike:
This has been a fantastic thread....keep up the great dialogue
Quote from: partycrasher on January 17, 2011, 06:34:38 AM
This has been a fantastic thread....keep up the great dialogue
I have to agree with that. It blows my mind how much Great knowledge there is at this web-site.
I hope to give back when I can.
Ill keep an eye on mine I think ill check once a year. It is a big difference than stock...Im going to mention this to the local dealer & watch there face for am expression before before they answer. thank you for all this info.';';'
Hello,
I have just installed the SE Compensator on my 08 SG. In step 8 of the instruction I should be able to rotate the comp sprocket by hand. The sprocket will not rotate by hand. All the springs look like they are in place and so does the Thrust Washer. Has anyone else run onto this?
Step 8:
Rotate the compensating sprocket (4) to make sure there
is a light pressure on the sprocket from the springs. No
clearance should be felt. A slight rotation should be possible by hand with the transmission in neutral.
Regards,
Bert
Hello Bert .. I got no rotation,just like you. mine is working fine. :nix:
Thank for the reply Ultrat.
This makes sense because when torquing the bolt you can feel the heavy springs compressing. And as strong as these springs are it's not surprising.
Bert
Quote from: Bertk on January 27, 2011, 10:21:17 AM
Thank for the reply Ultrat.
This makes sense because when torquing the bolt you can feel the heavy springs compressing. And as strong as these springs are it's not surprising.
Bert
If you can rotate this thing by hand it will be ready for the scrap heap. I really don't know why they would print something so stupid in the directions. :nix:
Ron
QuoteIf you can rotate this thing by hand it will be ready for the scrap heap
........or be wary of kryptonite :teeth:
Quote from: ultrat on January 27, 2011, 09:39:13 AM
Hello Bert .. I got no rotation,just like you. mine is working fine. :nix:
Thanks. I just got mine back together and could not rotate either. First time in this comp...got a little worried. Feel better now. I had some thin grooves put into my SE comp. (I posted my pics a while back in this thread...not pics of the groove mods through.) The grooves are both the ones on the spokes and also angled between the spokes and those thin grooves continue into the bearing journal of the sprocket at the same angle. I'll be pulling it apart next winter to share the pics with you biker trash. Oh, I did put Formula+ back into it.
Tons of thanks for this thread!
QuoteIf you can rotate this thing by hand it will be ready for the scrap heap
Thanks for the conformation.
I also cut the three notches at the bottom of the sprocket spokes as you did. All I had for fluid was Redline MTF so used it. I will pull the cover off in a thousand miles or so and check it out. Also installed the SOHB Hydraulic Chain Tensioner while I was in there. Took it for a short test ride and all I can say is WOW. This primary had never been so quiet. :bike:
Bert
I am planning to swap the OEM comp for the SE and want to cut the grooves at the spokes for oil drip but am a little concerned about the reported hardness of the sprocket. Someone stated it was 58 RC - that's pretty damn hard! How can you cut it with a dremel?
What is the preferred method and tool for doing this? (Dermel, Die Grinder, Mill, ??) And what type of bit?
Thanks...
Quote from: RoadKingMarine on April 26, 2011, 04:40:44 PM
I am planning to swap the OEM comp for the SE and want to cut the grooves at the spokes for oil drip but am a little concerned about the reported hardness of the sprocket. Someone stated it was 58 RC - that's pretty damn hard! How can you cut it with a dremel?
What is the preferred method and tool for doing this? (Dermel, Die Grinder, Mill, ??) And what type of bit?
Thanks...
What you can do is mark 3 lines across the face at 120* intervals and use a dremel tool with the pencil grinding stones. Get a few of these since they won't go far with this hard material. On each side of the line clamp small flatbars to act as a guide for the stone. The picture of my comp on this thread was done this way and took about 1 hour. Mostly marking it out and clamping the guide bars. I found the red stones seem to work the best.
Ron
I pulled a 2011 ultra primary apart, to find the same fretting. This bike only used Formula+ since day one and now has 6000 miles on it. Stock SE Compensator with no grooves. With these compensators all stock on 2011 touring models I can see some problems down the road for MOCO. I did not groove the comp. as it is still under warrinty and may need to be replaced in the near futher. No noise or any problems showing without taking it apart you would not know there is a problem. Doc
Quote from: RoadKingMarine on April 27, 2011, 05:31:29 PM
Quote from: rbabos on April 26, 2011, 05:05:29 PM
Quote from: RoadKingMarine on April 26, 2011, 04:40:44 PM
I am planning to swap the OEM comp for the SE and want to cut the grooves at the spokes for oil drip but am a little concerned about the reported hardness of the sprocket. Someone stated it was 58 RC - that's pretty damn hard! How can you cut it with a dremel?
What is the preferred method and tool for doing this? (Dermel, Die Grinder, Mill, ??) And what type of bit?
Thanks...
What you can do is mark 3 lines across the face at 120* intervals and use a dremel tool with the pencil grinding stones. Get a few of these since they won't go far with this hard material. On each side of the line clamp small flatbars to act as a guide for the stone. The picture of my comp on this thread was done this way and took about 1 hour. Mostly marking it out and clamping the guide bars. I found the red stones seem to work the best.
Ron
Thanks for the cutting advice. One more question.. Would there be an advantage to extending the groove outward onto the spokes another 1/8", with the deepest point right at the edge of the machined hub surface then with a radius to the surface of the spoke? I would think this little extra beyond the mating with the shaft extension would increase the "drip" some.
Likely won't help or hurt anything. The whole game plan was to increase the oil to the bore in low rpm conditions like idle and provide more time the comp has some oil between low and higher rpms. Sadly with sustained rpm no oil will enter the bore and it will run dry. It will wear out eventually but hopefully not as quickly. Short of pressure lubing the bore centrifigal force will always fling oil from the center to the outside of the sprocket. Every single harley comp suffers the same lube issues but overall design dictates how much travel is in the ramps, rotation in the bore which dictates how long before it wears out. 07+ comps move a lot compared to the 06- versions. Fretting in the bore is still visible on the early ones but nowhere near as bad. Moco has their hands full on how to make a comp function and last at least the life of the engine. Love to see how or if they can solve this one.
Ron
I chose to go the Dremel route but opted for Dremel #9901 Tungsten Carbide Cutter ($8.68 at Lowes) instead of the red stone cutters. Actually it worked very well and I think I could have gotten by with only one had I known the characteristics of this metal. It is definitely "hard as hammered hell" as someone said earlier. Had I cut through the hardness of all three slots before gong all the way down to 1/8" I probably could have done it with only one bit. Unfortunately, I cut two complete before going on to the third and was out of burr. Had to go back to Lowes and get another bit for the third slot.
Here's my results... Not mill quality or true to radius, but not too bad for free hand cutting.
I used a dremel with a flex attachment so I could get a better angle on the spokes, the Dremel tool itself is just too big to get in there effectively.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
this thread will never dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :hyst:
Gents, the true wear part is the spoke area of the sprocket. It wears out it 5-10 k miles and all the groving wont stop that. Appears to be a material incompatibility which no oil in the known world can fix, at least not one that would allow for wet clutch operation.
What are they? Around 200 bucks?
Why not just replace them after 10k miles?
Just think of them as part of maintenence of the bike.
Quote from: pwmorris on May 01, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
What are they? Around 200 bucks?
Why not just replace them after 10k miles?
Just think of them as part of maintenence of the bike.
Closer to 3 in Canada. Why not pull the crank once a year too and true it while at it as part of the maintenance of the bike? :hyst: Same chit in my view.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on May 01, 2011, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: pwmorris on May 01, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
What are they? Around 200 bucks?
Why not just replace them after 10k miles?
Just think of them as part of maintenence of the bike.
Closer to 3 in Canada. Why not pull the crank once a year too and true it while at it as part of the maintenance of the bike? :hyst: Same chit in my view.
Ron
:agree: closer to 4 here
Quote from: ViennaHog on May 01, 2011, 01:23:52 AM
Gents, the true wear part is the spoke area of the sprocket. It wears out it 5-10 k miles and all the groving wont stop that. Appears to be a material incompatibility which no oil in the known world can fix, at least not one that would allow for wet clutch operation.
Agree,
My 2011 has 4000 miles and the arms are severley hammered and gouged, one spoke even has pitting holes.
The non-notched center bore is perfect.
What a POS.
There has to be a better part.
Ive been kicking this idea around, When the compensator shows wear, heck just make a bearing insert out of a of compatible material I.E. aluminum or bronze/phosphorous bronze or brass to be machined in the bore fix it and forget, Ill going to do this if and when mine goes bad, Machine it out then press the "replacement bearing" in. Either the hub shaft or the bore or both Then fluid type wouldnt be a issue either. could be done very cheap and easy by any machine shop. just like the 07-08-09 cam plates had the bearing insert for cams and crank. This would be a great Permanent fix, make this a maintenance item????? Heck no just do it once and forget like it should ve been done by HARLEY
Quote from: rbabos on May 01, 2011, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: pwmorris on May 01, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
What are they? Around 200 bucks?
Why not just replace them after 10k miles?
Just think of them as part of maintenence of the bike.
Closer to 3 in Canada. Why not pull the crank once a year too and true it while at it as part of the maintenance of the bike? :hyst: Same chit in my view.
Ron
Now that is some funny chit there... :hyst:
Well we are installing the SE comp in this 120R with prochrager HA HA , since the POS PM sprocket lasted all of 9 pulls maybe the comp will last just after I tune it and we can replace it, .... bitch though with the pro charger on the bike not much fun doing much of anything in the primary...
Anybody got any encouraging news on this front? Stroker pulled his out of the 120r and IT was showing rust. WTF!!! We NEED a fix for sure!!
Well if the crank is welded I guess just take it out and run a gear, no compensator, I guess thats it!!!!!
Quote from: timtoolman on May 12, 2011, 07:37:28 AM
Well if the crank is welded I guess just take it out and run a gear, no compensator, I guess thats it!!!!!
Let us know how it works out for you..
Max
Quote from: timtoolman on May 12, 2011, 07:37:28 AM
Well if the crank is welded I guess just take it out and run a gear, no compensator, I guess thats it!!!!!
Yep-
No Comp for me-straight up gear sprocket to clutch basket. Welded, treated, modded, and good to go!
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7418/sprocketc.jpg)
(http://profile.imageshack.us/user/uvglusurc3)
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7946/sprocketassembly2.jpg)
(http://profile.imageshack.us/user/uvglusurc3)
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1706/sprocketassembly.jpg)
(http://profile.imageshack.us/user/uvglusurc3)
Then again, I'm not running a late model bagger...
ahhh yep.! been there done it, before not a uncommon mod :pop:
I recently installed the SE comp. I went back and forth whether to remove the inner primary or mod the case. I'm glad I went the mod route in case removing/replacing becomes a routine maintenance thing.
Now I'm not entirely sure replacing the stock comp with an SE was really necessary. I have an 07 FLHR with 103 HTCC motor and thought my starting problems could be related to the comp. It turned out it was just a weak battery.
Well, I spent the $$ without inspecting the OEM compensator but when I opened it up and replaced the comp, the stock cam, sprocket and springs looked pristine with minimal wear and I have no really noticeable performance difference with the SE version. It seems to me I could have saved ~$250 on parts and Dremel bits for something which was not a problem.
In hindsight, I should have simply bought a $2 bolt and checked out the original before ordering a new SE version. Oh well, I'll see how it feels when doing more than just a post installation test ride.
Before you ask, I have just over 18K miles on it, 15K with the 103 HTCC - and I do not baby it.
QuoteBefore you ask, I have just over 18K miles on it, 15K with the 103 HTCC - and I do not baby it.
Sounds like you don't lug the motor.. Probably a good thing.. Max
wow now in all confused, 2000 softail 95 cubes. ive had the hot start problems ,noise. and was going to change to se compensator. and what do you trim on the inner primary??
2000?? I dont think it will fit on your bike,
Quote from: wurk_truk on May 11, 2011, 09:25:54 PM
Anybody got any encouraging news on this front? Stroker pulled his out of the 120r and IT was showing rust. WTF!!! We NEED a fix for sure!!
I pulled at 400 miles....200 with B&M trick shift and 200 with redline 6 atf.
it was worn on the ramps bad!
Put formula+ in and road 500 more miles. Took apart and had fretting bad. But the wear was better. :nix:
thanks timtoolman. ya i just found that out :banghead:
Can some one explain what kind of noise happens when the compensator is going bad?
I have an 08 Ultra 103/255 and when come to a stop and apply front brake and then pull in the clutch, I hear a "clunk" sound. Its hard to tell where it is coming from. I first suspected it was the front brake pads maybe hanging up on the caliper pins or something brake related. The more I hear it the more I think it may be the compensator.
What damage happens it this thing completely fails? Or does it completely fail?
I do not believe seeing any abnormal amount of debris on the drain plug on the last primary oil change.
It's been in since last spring with Royal Purple. Back of the spokes are just polished. I had a new one to put in but I just stuck this one back in.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: loc on May 25, 2011, 07:10:50 PM
Can some one explain what kind of noise happens when the compensator is going bad?
I have an 08 Ultra 103/255 and when come to a stop and apply front brake and then pull in the clutch, I hear a "clunk" sound. Its hard to tell where it is coming from. I first suspected it was the front brake pads maybe hanging up on the caliper pins or something brake related. The more I hear it the more I think it may be the compensator.
What damage happens it this thing completely fails? Or does it completely fail?
I do not believe seeing any abnormal amount of debris on the drain plug on the last primary oil change.
Doubt it's the comp. There's so much lash in the primary drive on these things it could be an acumulation of a buch of parts. One of the biggest noise makers in the primary is the auto tensioner as anyone with a somewhat erratic idling engine can attest to. Top of chain whip causes the shoe's bias spring to compress and botton the shoe solid for a split second. This causes occaisonal clunks during idle. It can be heard during blipping the throttle sometimes too. When all the lash is taken up in the primary and trans, as in clutch in and then out again it sounds like a clack.
Unless someone is totally deaf a complete failure of the comp will likely not happen. The rattle, crunch sounds on shutdown will get your attention as well as overall noise in general. This would sound somewhat like valve train noise and have a chatter sound coming from the primary. Could even be some added vibration to the bike as things get really worn. It will let you know it's time to investigate.
Ron
Quote from: lonewolf on May 25, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
It's been in since last spring with Royal Purple. Back of the spokes are just polished. I had a new one to put in but I just stuck this one back in.
Russel: Care to post up what exact RP product this is. We are always in the hunt for the optimum lube for both the clutch operation and comp protection.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: loc on May 25, 2011, 07:10:50 PM
Can some one explain what kind of noise happens when the compensator is going bad?
I have an 08 Ultra 103/255 and when come to a stop and apply front brake and then pull in the clutch, I hear a "clunk" sound. Its hard to tell where it is coming from. I first suspected it was the front brake pads maybe hanging up on the caliper pins or something brake related. The more I hear it the more I think it may be the compensator.
What damage happens it this thing completely fails? Or does it completely fail?
I do not believe seeing any abnormal amount of debris on the drain plug on the last primary oil change.
Doubt it's the comp. There's so much lash in the primary drive on these things it could be an acumulation of a buch of parts. One of the biggest noise makers in the primary is the auto tensioner as anyone with a somewhat erratic idling engine can attest to. Top of chain whip causes the shoe's bias spring to compress and botton the shoe solid for a split second. This causes occaisonal clunks during idle. It can be heard during blipping the throttle sometimes too. When all the lash is taken up in the primary and trans, as in clutch in and then out again it sounds like a clack.
Unless someone is totally deaf a complete failure of the comp will likely not happen. The rattle, crunch sounds on shutdown will get your attention as well as overall noise in general. This would sound somewhat like valve train noise and have a chatter sound coming from the primary. Could even be some added vibration to the bike as things get really worn. It will let you know it's time to investigate.
Ron
Any Solution to the Auto Tensioner noise?
You worry too much. I think a trip to the tail or California and some more miles to rattle it loose will help.
Russel, when did you buy that Comp?
Quote from: loc on May 26, 2011, 09:32:59 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: loc on May 25, 2011, 07:10:50 PM
Can some one explain what kind of noise happens when the compensator is going bad?
I have an 08 Ultra 103/255 and when come to a stop and apply front brake and then pull in the clutch, I hear a "clunk" sound. Its hard to tell where it is coming from. I first suspected it was the front brake pads maybe hanging up on the caliper pins or something brake related. The more I hear it the more I think it may be the compensator.
What damage happens it this thing completely fails? Or does it completely fail?
I do not believe seeing any abnormal amount of debris on the drain plug on the last primary oil change.
Doubt it's the comp. There's so much lash in the primary drive on these things it could be an acumulation of a buch of parts. One of the biggest noise makers in the primary is the auto tensioner as anyone with a somewhat erratic idling engine can attest to. Top of chain whip causes the shoe's bias spring to compress and botton the shoe solid for a split second. This causes occaisonal clunks during idle. It can be heard during blipping the throttle sometimes too. When all the lash is taken up in the primary and trans, as in clutch in and then out again it sounds like a clack.
Unless someone is totally deaf a complete failure of the comp will likely not happen. The rattle, crunch sounds on shutdown will get your attention as well as overall noise in general. This would sound somewhat like valve train noise and have a chatter sound coming from the primary. Could even be some added vibration to the bike as things get really worn. It will let you know it's time to investigate.
Ron
Any Solution to the Auto Tensioner noise?
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days. I can better deal with pulling the cover once a year to adjust if needed rather than listening to that pos. Plus it don't adjust all that well either. My biggest fear was it overtightening from a loose state expecially with the 113 yanking on the shafts. Then you got issues especially miles from home.
Ron
Quote from: BAKON on May 26, 2011, 09:48:25 AM
You worry too much. I think a trip to the tail or California and some more miles to rattle it loose will help.
Not all of us have that much time off or funds to make a California Trip.
As far as worries, i'm not the one who had an intake leak with a cracked seal(s) and will now not trust it to run on a 200 mile trip. :potstir:
You forgot my rattling shift linkage. Have to use Limited to go past any river. Except no fm radio.
Still waiting for a verdict on this thread. 2010 limited still under warranty so I hope something is figured out. Know the 2011 touring changed to SE compensator's. Something has to be know about the old style.
Sounds like the SE's aren't doin so hot either.
Any Solution to the Auto Tensioner noise?
[/quote]
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days. I can better deal with pulling the cover once a year to adjust if needed rather than listening to that pos. Plus it don't adjust all that well either. My biggest fear was it overtightening from a loose state expecially with the 113 yanking on the shafts. Then you got issues especially miles from home.
Ron
[/quote]
Ron, What Keeps the AUTO tensioner FROM over tightening on the primary chain ??? And does it keep a little Slack like one should??
YOUR OPINION is respectively Wanted by Me.. I did read #382 above... IS that the way they ALL act?
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on May 27, 2011, 03:29:20 PM
Any Solution to the Auto Tensioner noise?
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days. I can better deal with pulling the cover once a year to adjust if needed rather than listening to that pos. Plus it don't adjust all that well either. My biggest fear was it overtightening from a loose state expecially with the 113 yanking on the shafts. Then you got issues especially miles from home.
Ron
[/quote]
Ron, What Keeps the AUTO tensioner FROM over tightening on the primary chain ??? And does it keep a little Slack like one should??
YOUR OPINION is respectively Wanted by Me.. I did read #382 above... IS that the way they ALL act?
signed....BUBBIE
[/quote]
BUBBIE: They don't all behave that way especially on stock bikes.
The way they work is the ratchet should adjust to about 3/16"- 1/4" up and down free play on the top of the chain. Under the shoe there are two springs that pressure a pivoting base that will allow the shoe to compress another 1/2" to take up any natural tightening as the chain and sprockets heat up. When hot this base is still not quite bottomed out to the block, so the system isn't rigid. Firm yes which is harmless but not rigid. Since a 96 barely has enough balls to pull the peeling off of a rotten banana the crank and trans primary shaft won't deflect much under load. As the chain stretches there comes a time where the ratchet is just about ready to click into the next notch and may or may not do this when the primary is cold. If not a hard acell will move it up another notch. Still within the range of the shoe springs to keep it from going rigid and stupid tight when hot.
To get an overtight condition several things need to be in play. A cold primary with the ratchet almost ready to move up one notch. Add some serious torque that deflect the shafts on a hard launch, and the ratchet that would normally only move one notch might go 2-3. Once heat tightens the chain there's no spring left under the shoe and the adjuster goes rigid. The chain now becomes a banjo string when hot. What somewhat aids this problem is the adjusters that I've played with (HD) on the most part are lazy to take up the slack, meaning the ratchet isn't as tight as it should be most of the time. Mine use to be at 3/8" free play and with another additional 1/2-5/8" play from the shoe springs the top of the chain can be pulled up to contact the top of the primary case. This adds up to one hell of a lot of driveline slop on decel and accel.
I went manual adjust for several reasons. One was the 113 and fear of overtighening. Always hated the lash in the system since new. It's practially none existant now and best described as a metric with gear drive primary for lash. I also got sick of listenig to chatter at idle sometimes (cam induced) and that click sound when doing slow motion shifts and letting the clutch out from the lash being taken up.
Not for everyone, but works for me.
Actually inspected it today and the comp is just ducky. Clean with no fretting and spokes look good. Only light dust on the magnet after 2k
Ron
RON,,, I am SUPER GLAD you explained that.. Really well thought out and concise..
THANKS
signed....BUBBIE
your are right on the adjuster just took mine out of a 120 Jims the chain was like a piano string. Ruined the spline on the trans mainshaft and the spline on the clutch hub. Another lesson learned not to upgrade from something that worked for years and years. put back the original adjust and ordered all the other parts
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 03:22:11 PM
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days.
Ron
How?
Quote from: wurk_truk on May 28, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 03:22:11 PM
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days.
Ron
How?
If you do it retain the springs on the block. While I've tested both ways retaining the springs makes it a more user friendly setup.
Adjust ratchet for 5/8" total slack including bottoming the shoe springs, cold and the tightest spot. This somewhat slightly preloads the shoe so the chain is under some tension, even cold. This aids in keeping those pos 07 and up primarys quieter, most likely due to some echo chamber effect from how these tensioners are mounted. Best done after the chain is broken in. Then adjustment will last a really long time or miles.
Running a 49 tooth evo sprocket requires moving the block a bit higher than stock. This required some materal on the outer cover inside at one of the bolt bosses on my softail. About 1/8" flat spot with a blending disc and hand grinder. Not sure if there's a clearance issue or not with baggers. A quick look over will let you know if there is conflict between the lug or not.
Ron
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Read all of this. Thinking I should kick the new RK Classic off in a ditch, geeez do the comp’s really fail in a few miles? It came stock with the 103†and SE Comp. My bike will occasionally clunk at shutdown, not noticed any unusual sound at startup.
My question - I use RedLine MTL in the primary of all the Harley’s I own/have owned. Is MTL acceptable or would I be better to run that Formula+ fluid? I got a headache reading all this, but gathered that the concern is the comp is not receiving enough oil. Is that correct or am I missing the point? :nix:
Having run both oils, MTL and Formula+ both oils had rust or fretting, The Formula+ was the quietest in the primary. Cut grooves in the sprocket and have not had it apart since so will not comment on weather it works or not. Doc
Quote from: HarleyHiwayMan on May 30, 2011, 04:57:42 AM
Read all of this. Thinking I should kick the new RK Classic off in a ditch, geeez do the comp’s really fail in a few miles? It came stock with the 103†and SE Comp. My bike will occasionally clunk at shutdown, not noticed any unusual sound at startup.
My question - I use RedLine MTL in the primary of all the Harley’s I own/have owned. Is MTL acceptable or would I be better to run that Formula+ fluid? I got a headache reading all this, but gathered that the concern is the comp is not receiving enough oil. Is that correct or am I missing the point? :nix:
Never ran MTL in the primary because of pics of fretting with it's use. I'm not talking a few minor red lines in the bore here which can never be completely avoided. Even the earlier comps suffer this lack of bore lube to some extent but their small operational rotations minimize it to the point no problems show up, which is why atf and mtl seems to work ok on earlier designs.
It's when the whole sprocket face is coated with red oxide is when an even further lack of lube quality rears it's ugly head. This starts immediately with atf's, Belray gear saver or any fluid with slim to nil viscosity.
Grooving at least in my bike seems to add a bit more oil at lower rpms which will likely buy time for the bore. The biggest issue is spoke wear. This is strickly a design, hardness issue which needs to be dealt with eventually by MoCo. I've found spoke wear to be greatly reduced using Formula+ and expect a decent life from the comp if mine is any indication. Fine dust only on the drain plug. With atf I was getting shards of spoke material stuck to it in really low miles. 200 or less. By 2k it was ready for the scrap heap. I "Potty mouth" you not.
Stay with a decent viscosity oil and it should be fine until some revision is done to the design from the factory.
The clunk you hear is normal. Just rebound of the cam between spokes on the last revolution from clutch basket enertia. With atf it's a clunk, grind, crunch sound, like if you jammed a crowbar into the chain. I remember having the bike on the lift and rotating the engine with the tire. I could actually hear scraping sounds from the comp as the spokes climbed the cam ramps. Don't get that with Formula+. Other oils may work as well but my Rivera clutch and comp both get along with this crap for now.
I suspect along the line material and hardness will be addressed. Newer versions will look just like the early ones that area wear prone. Hell , might already have happened by now with the repacements or new stock. Just another way of sneaking a fk up past us and fixing it on our own dime. Would be nice if somebody had a way to measure the early and later versions for hardness. Then we know for sure.
I feel the actual layout and operation is good with the SE.
Ron
Scleroscope may be a good way to test as it measures how high a ball dropped on an object will bounce. Only one bounce per spot allowed as the first bounce will harden the spot. It is a ball in a tube and should be somewhat portable.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
I just had my S.E. comp apart due to belt replacement , The comp has 4000 miles on it, I have the grooves and used red line MTL in it there was slight red fretting on the hub It wiped off very easy. I m trying formula plus in it now to see any differences
Quote from: timtoolman on May 31, 2011, 03:43:11 AM
I just had my S.E. comp apart due to belt replacement , The comp has 4000 miles on it, I have the grooves and used red line MTL in it there was slight red fretting on the hub It wiped off very easy. I m trying formula plus in it now to see any differences
Promissing :pop:
Rbabos
a rockwell test would be quick and easy if you knew who had a rockwell set up, It just makes a small indentation on the metal with out damaging it. like a drill press with a pointed "pin" I used one many times, its a cheap test if you knew where a testing lab was. just some info. for ya
Quote from: timtoolman on May 31, 2011, 04:24:01 AM
Rbabos
a rockwell test would be quick and easy if you knew who had a rockwell set up, It just makes a small indentation on the metal with out damaging it. like a drill press with a pointed "pin" I used one many times, its a cheap test if you knew where a testing lab was. just some info. for ya
Back in the day I had a source for rc testing but it's long gone now. I'll inquire around and see if there's another one around. I've got my previous comp that wore out which would serve as a good base #.
Just pulled my cover the other day with about the same miles as yours running F+. Clean as a whistle and the spoke area is more of a polished surface than the gouges I've seen previously. Just maybe........?
Ron
I think your maybe right Rbabos about the formula + vs red line , even though i had very minor fretting 2-3 thin red lines on the hub I did put in formula + in this time .
Pulled primary s/e comp installed 15k ago run foumula + smoothing/fretting of ramps no rust seen did not dissemble..5 k on fluid.
Topic: se compensator (Read 12 times)
hodshire
Member
Posts: 3
se compensator
« on: Today at 02:17:59 PM »
Quote
I was told that all 2011 touring bikes come stock with the se compensator. Can anyone confirm this? I am having an issue with my 2011 ultra classic and I suspect the compensator. Its been back to the dealer, at 90 miles and goes back Sunday at 468 miles for making noise in the primary that sounds like a tin can of marbles being shaking.
**********************
Where Have I see this type of question before? :potstir:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: rbabos on May 28, 2011, 01:18:18 PM
Quote from: wurk_truk on May 28, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 03:22:11 PM
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days.
Ron
How?
If you do it retain the springs on the block. While I've tested both ways retaining the springs makes it a more user friendly setup.
Adjust ratchet for 5/8" total slack including bottoming the shoe springs, cold and the tightest spot. This somewhat slightly preloads the shoe so the chain is under some tension, even cold. This aids in keeping those pos 07 and up primarys quieter, most likely due to some echo chamber effect from how these tensioners are mounted. Best done after the chain is broken in. Then adjustment will last a really long time or miles.
Running a 49 tooth evo sprocket requires moving the block a bit higher than stock. This required some materal on the outer cover inside at one of the bolt bosses on my softail. About 1/8" flat spot with a blending disc and hand grinder. Not sure if there's a clearance issue or not with baggers. A quick look over will let you know if there is conflict between the lug or not.
Ron
rbabos, di you drill and slot that?
Just a little update. About 6K on this one. Formula plus only.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: d1hojo07 on June 20, 2011, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: rbabos on May 28, 2011, 01:18:18 PM
Quote from: wurk_truk on May 28, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 26, 2011, 03:22:11 PM
Sure. I converted mine to a manual adjuster minus the bias spring, just like the good old days.
Ron
How?
If you do it retain the springs on the block. While I've tested both ways retaining the springs makes it a more user friendly setup.
Adjust ratchet for 5/8" total slack including bottoming the shoe springs, cold and the tightest spot. This somewhat slightly preloads the shoe so the chain is under some tension, even cold. This aids in keeping those pos 07 and up primarys quieter, most likely due to some echo chamber effect from how these tensioners are mounted. Best done after the chain is broken in. Then adjustment will last a really long time or miles.
Running a 49 tooth evo sprocket requires moving the block a bit higher than stock. This required some materal on the outer cover inside at one of the bolt bosses on my softail. About 1/8" flat spot with a blending disc and hand grinder. Not sure if there's a clearance issue or not with baggers. A quick look over will let you know if there is conflict between the lug or not.
Ron
rbabos, di you drill and slot that?
Block can be drilled and tapped. The base has to be either plasma or edm. Extremely hard steel.
Ron
Quote from: d1hojo07 on July 08, 2011, 12:25:48 PM
Just a little update. About 6K on this one. Formula plus only.
Damn. Not looking too good. I don't understand why some do this and others won't. Recently had a peek at mine at 4k and other than a couple of red lines looked decent. That was after all the vtuning abuse I gave it. I'm stuck for an answer. Lonewolf posted a pic recently running RoyalPurple ATF and it still looked good. :wtf: I wonder if the material has changed along the production time or something?
Ron
I kept complaining about the large bang on start up on my '09 Ultra Classic but I could get the compensator replaced under warranty. I did a couple months ago have a new SE compensator installed and what a difference there is.
OK, this old codger has his flame suit; so light her boys.
On my 05 RK Custom do I need a replacement compensator? If so, what do I replace it with?
your 05 comp. is completely different, and those old style seem to hold up well. Don't think you have a thing to worry about.
Quote from: pappy42 on September 11, 2011, 11:05:33 AM
OK, this old codger has his flame suit; so light her boys.
On my 05 RK Custom do I need a replacement compensator? If so, what do I replace it with?
Quote from: pigfixer on September 11, 2011, 11:30:18 AM
your 05 comp. is completely different, and those old style seem to hold up well. Don't think you have a thing to worry about.
PigFixer, I appreciate your reply; thanks.
Quote from: pappy42 on September 11, 2011, 11:05:33 AM
OK, this old codger has his flame suit; so light her boys.
On my 05 RK Custom do I need a replacement compensator? If so, what do I replace it with?
For geezer glide sport to check the grooves on the comp
I know it may be around here somewhere... but does anybody have a parts breakdown on the stock 2012 compensator? Including the rotor?
I'm going to need a new comp shortly, and instead of the SE, I would be willing to try whatever it is they run stock now.
Funny I shimmed my stock 09 unit up and it is holding up without issue, 556 + pulls on my dyno mule, hole shots, you name it, no issues with clang or bang on start up either.. I will be keeping my stock set up, wish you guys well on the SE unit or the new stock units. Which by the way look like azz in a short time, not much better than the old SE version.
wurk_truk,
I believe they are using the newer design screamin eagle comp on the new models.
Frank
The new SE comp# is 40274-08A
Quote from: lonerider2 on September 13, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
The new SE comp# is 40274-08A
This is the latest version both truc and I are using but the actual 2012 is built a bit differently. Part numbers seem to be non existant at this point. Dealer couldn't even track one down, but eventually it will be listed. Still a piece of crap from the exploded view I saw once. :banghead:
Ron
83935-09A, is the replacement parts for the -08A version we have now.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 13, 2011, 04:22:18 PM
Funny I shimmed my stock 09 unit up and it is holding up without issue, 556 + pulls on my dyno mule, hole shots, you name it, no issues with clang or bang on start up either.. I will be keeping my stock set up, wish you guys well on the SE unit or the new stock units. Which by the way look like azz in a short time, not much better than the old SE version.
Back when I got my softail 07FXSTC it chattered like a bastard in fifth gear when hot. Eventually I clued into a comp issue as part of the cause. Shimmy the pack at the expense of losing rotation in the unit took most of the clacking out but not all of it. I'm sorta stuck with these SE versions for no other reason than to quiet the trans, which it does well. Necessary crap, if you will.
Ron
Steve, Is your 09 comp. the same as the stock one I took out of my 07 110? If so, how did you shim it? Ron, Are you running the IDS?
Quote from: rob71458 on September 13, 2011, 05:14:42 PM
Steve, Is your 09 comp. the same as the stock one I took out of my 07 110? If so, how did you shim it? Ron, Are you running the IDS?
No ids available for softails and dynas that's why sole reliance on the right cushioning effect plays such a role on how the shafts rebound in the crunch drive 6 speed to eliminate noise. I'm sure this was more "Potty mouth" luck on MoCos part since the ids was developed for trans clatter and the SE comp came out to reduce crank shifting problems.
Ron
Ron is correct it does limit travel and mine has the cush drive. I ran a .028 shim if I recall...been over a year since I did that mod. If I thought I could get a SE comp to last I would but I am putting 20K plus a year on my bike I do not need issues on my trips.
Ron just needs to design a new unit all together and put it out to market.. maybe HD will pick up it from you.. LOL that would be cool :teeth:
After trying the grooves we thought that was a fix but it just does the same thing the next time you check it, we have tried the formula plus, Red line torco bely ray golden spectro Royal purple etc... I have several customers with them and I have been checking them on the 5 k service. Nothing seems to really make them live. I had hopes the new set up was going to be the ticket but seeing the same thing on the 2011 bikes. I have a customer that is getting a 2012 so I think I will take a peek at it once he gets his 1000 miles on it and it comes in for service. As the 12 unit is to be fixed from the 11 unit?? I guess time will tell
Quote from: lonerider2 on September 13, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
The new SE comp# is 40274-08A
I already threw one of those in the trash. It was a POS! And now I'm POed, because I threw the rotor in the trash along with the comp.
So... I'm going to give the 2012 comp a try and see what happens.
Steve, if you get some time, could you explain shimming a stock comp in more detail?
I'm thinking the 11s had the SE unit and the 12s have the new unit. Next time at the dealer... I will look up this stuff. The newest parts manual I have is for a 2010.
If I thought I could get a SE comp to last I would but I am putting 20K plus a year on my bike I do not need issues on my trips. EXACTLY!!!
My 07 comp has never had a problem even after 100/100 for the last 2 years, I don't flog this bike to hard because of the plastic crank. I do ride it hard bouncing it of the limiter when ever I get the chance. The only time I ever hear the comp working is on hot soak starts or when on loaded hill starts when it go's to stall ? My 07 has no clunks, no 5 gear wine and never missed a beat. I must have got a good one
QuoteRon is correct it does limit travel and mine has the cush drive. I ran a .028 shim if I recall...been over a year since I did that mod. If I thought I could get a SE comp to last I would but I am putting 20K plus a year on my bike I do not need issues on my trips.
Kool,
Another 3 dollar fix.. Of course if there is someone who want to spend 200, there is someone that will to take the money.. Kind of like bagger wobble stuff.. :wink:
You need to figure out the shim size and add it to your "kits"..
Max
Quote from: wurk_truk on September 13, 2011, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: lonerider2 on September 13, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
The new SE comp# is 40274-08A
I already threw one of those in the trash. It was a POS! And now I'm POed, because I threw the rotor in the trash along with the comp.
So... I'm going to give the 2012 comp a try and see what happens.
Steve, if you get some time, could you explain shimming a stock comp in more detail?
I'm thinking the 11s had the SE unit and the 12s have the new unit. Next time at the dealer... I will look up this stuff. The newest parts manual I have is for a 2010.
If I thought I could get a SE comp to last I would but I am putting 20K plus a year on my bike I do not need issues on my trips. EXACTLY!!!
Well one thing that Ron and I spoke about was the amount of travel they have. So if you take a tq wrench you can bottom them out very easy. SO if they get to the limit of travel the idea is nothing more than stopping them from banging back and forth so easy. Add a shim to the stock shim pack. It will increase preload, but since there is very little room you are going to limit the travel. But again if you look at how far it is moving you can see they go from one side of the stop to the other side.
So if you have a cush drive no reason you cannot go back to the old style and add a shim . The dyna guys and softail well not much for that unless you where to maybe get a after market wheel and convert it to a cush drive. That would be some fab work not going tobe a bolt on deal there.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 14, 2011, 08:06:19 AM
Quote from: wurk_truk on September 13, 2011, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: lonerider2 on September 13, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
The new SE comp# is 40274-08A
I already threw one of those in the trash. It was a POS! And now I'm POed, because I threw the rotor in the trash along with the comp.
So... I'm going to give the 2012 comp a try and see what happens.
Steve, if you get some time, could you explain shimming a stock comp in more detail?
I'm thinking the 11s had the SE unit and the 12s have the new unit. Next time at the dealer... I will look up this stuff. The newest parts manual I have is for a 2010.
If I thought I could get a SE comp to last I would but I am putting 20K plus a year on my bike I do not need issues on my trips. EXACTLY!!!
Well one thing that Ron and I spoke about was the amount of travel they have. So if you take a tq wrench you can bottom them out very easy. SO if they get to the limit of travel the idea is nothing more than stopping them from banging back and forth so easy. Add a shim to the stock shim pack. It will increase preload, but since there is very little room you are going to limit the travel. But again if you look at how far it is moving you can see they go from one side of the stop to the other side.
So if you have a cush drive no reason you cannot go back to the old style and add a shim . The dyna guys and softail well not much for that unless you where to maybe get a after market wheel and convert it to a cush drive. That would be some fab work not going tobe a bolt on deal there.
We went off in a tangent in our conversation, which is not uncommon but after thinking about the stock comp and the shims you and I have done, I forget to mention it's a temporary fix. The preload will eventually fall back due to those small cam tips wearing down and them machining the pocket deeper inside the sprocket. Ok, so the natural thing is to go thicker on the shim. This is where it bites your ass. The splines on the extension shaft have a termination point where the extension shaft turns into the spindle for the sprocket. It will stop the cam from moving outward to make use of any further shim attempts. The sprocket will then rattle because the tips of the cam won't offer any dampening or stability for the bore - sprocket fit. Mind you I have no way of knowing how long this would take, but there was only about 1/16" wear allowance before it was beyond hope.
I'm really frustrated with both of these poorly designed units at the moment, but do have a bolt on oiler setup in mind as a last resort. While the SE has a couple of issues, both the stocker and the SE suffer from running dry. The only time the critical parts see oil is on a shutdown and maybe idle speeds which was the attempt of grooving to allow a bit extra in there to flood the bore and buy some extra time. Drive it long enough it drys up, regardless. Once I get all the other projects done I may dive back in there and see if there's a way to run a gravity oiler tube to the back side of the outer bore. Hopefully the spirals in the washer are the correct direction to pull oil into the bore and then fling some of the excess accross the spoke contact points. If there's room, it could be a bolt on unit just about anybody could install. It's a big IF, though. :banghead:
Ron
Well I have just over 26,000 now and its still going so if I have to buy a few parts at say 40K better than only getting 6k like the se version or less :hyst:
Like I said good luck with the SE version as no way in hell would I install on of those on my bike, at least not the pre 12 version ,
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 14, 2011, 03:55:12 PM
Well I have just over 26,000 now and its still going so if I have to buy a few parts at say 40K better than only getting 6k like the se version or less :hyst:
Like I said good luck with the SE version as no way in hell would I install on of those on my bike, at least not the pre 12 version ,
Just checked. Got 14k on the present SE comp with the 113. Still silent and functioning ok. Must be that special lube blend I'm using. :potstir:
Nothing wrong with your approach and with the ids , most likely a great combo. At this stage it's too much for me to convert my softail to ids and for now the SE has to stay. Hopefully with all the 120r's trashing these things MoCo will come out with a more durable unit. :hyst: Just have to wait and see.
For what it's worth my parts guy says the 2012 comps are the same # as the previous -08A. :nix: :scratch:
Ron
Sure Ron go ahead and hold out on the custom oil that you are using. Let everyone else tear up parts and you get 14K on yours and still going strong... I wont tell anyone.. but if you guys start looking in the cooking section at the grocery store you are getting warm :hyst: :potstir:
If our cranks are welded and we are running the IDS, why can't we just $hit can these comps. all together, and use a solid sprocket?
Quote from: rob71458 on September 14, 2011, 05:58:17 PM
If our cranks are welded and we are running the IDS, why can't we just $hit can these comps. all together, and use a solid sprocket?
Not really my field but based on my gut feelings is that relying strickly on the cush drive with these agressive long duration engine pulses the ids will likely get beat to death in no time. The pulse is better dealt with over two areas, comp and ids for best absorbtion in a shared fashion. What might work to some degree is to reduce the comp sprocket to a smaller dia. For example the EVO 30 tooth, if you can tolerate the gearing change does work reasonably well with the ids. Not as smooth as a comp but from what I've read acceptable. However , every one has different standards as to what's acceptable. :wink: Staying with the stock 34 tooth sprocket and going rigid would likely send it over the edge and be quite rough in the lighter load cruising ranges. I think what I'm trying to say is the 34 tooth will amplify the pulse more so than the 30 tooth would. Don't think you'd like the ride Rob, compared to a comp unit. I know the constant shudder would drive me nuts.
Something to ponder. If a bike is equipped with an ids , one would think the comp should last longer since in theory it's range of motion would be reduced and less wear would develop. I'm beginning to wonder if the opposite is happening, based on some of these really short life spans of 5k, and I'm 3 times that in milage with no issues so far on my non ids softail :potstir:
Sorry to mess with your heads, it's just my nature. :hyst:
Ron
I just installed the SE comp in my 2010 SG and with 25,000 miles the stock one still loooked great, no red rusty looking stuff like I have seen on some ( Harley Formula 1 since new ). My old shovels always had that rusty looking crap all over the comp. I hope the SE holds up. I just wanted to get rid of the bang when starting. If I have to replace every 20 to 30,000 miles so be it, still a lot cheaper than tires. Gas and oil alone to go 20,000 miles will cost you around $2,000. I think one would know if the comp was going south before any other damage was done I HOPE. And without having to replace the rotor what maybe an hour.
SR
Ive been reading this thread since the beginning .....
My 07 SG w/ 25K miles on it has banged & bucked since it was new... so after reading a ton of info, I decided to go with the SE Comp
On 09/01 I ordered p/n 40274-08A, it was back ordered but came in on Monday.
What I got was p/n p/n 40274-08, no -A , the date on the box is 08/25/11. I asked about the -A and was told... well, we ordered that & this came in
Ok..so anything I need to know ?
Im putting it in this weekend... It cant be any worse than what I got now.
But... Ill save the old one just in case
From what I have read here it does not seem to be much differant. I putting an 08 non A in also Mon, Doc
Fast,
I'd send it back and demand the A type. IMO, the A type is more solid than the non A type. Unless you want to spend another 200 bucks 20 to 30 k down the road.
Frank
I'd agree, get what you ordered, not what they want to get rid of...
Quote from: HarleyFranco on September 15, 2011, 01:46:43 PM
Fast,
I'd send it back and demand the A type. IMO, the A type is more solid than the non A type. Unless you want to spend another 200 bucks 20 to 30 k down the road.
Frank
:wtf:All this BS & trouble with comp . sprockets never had a bit of trouble with mine, no banging ,clunking ,noise at all. i must of had the upgraded Verizon it came with a plug in the pri-cover and a grease fitting in the comp. of course that was back when parts were made to last and customers didn't get the shaft and pissed off. 58 FLH PAN.
At a HD dealer, I get a personal discount of cost +10% on orders for my own use. The catch is I can not return anything I buy using this discount.
The day I picked up the SE Comp, my contact, the Parts Mgr, wasnt there so I took it. I have gone back & talked to the Serv Mgr, Parts Mgr & called a PHD Mech I know & they assured me that because of the mfg date of 08/25/11, I got the latest available at that time. Yeah it sounds like a load of BS but Ive known these guys for years & theres no reason for them to mislead me... Sometimes ya have to say OK... and walk away.
Like I said, it cant be any worse than the stock one is.
There is a way to tell. The shaft extension #2 and the sprocket retainer #6 are different on 08a than the 08. That part where the thrust washer slides on to the sprocket retainer is a lot longer on the o8a and it fits into the shaft extension. On the 08 there is just a lip on the sprocket retainer that the thrust washer rest on and it just butts up against the shaft extension.
SR