I had a lifter roller lock up on me a while ago. There was quite a bit of metal shavings in the cam chest and the cam was toast. I replaced the cam and cleaned up the shavings as well as I could. Then put new pistons in, flushed the oil cooler and of course changed oil.
Bike ran real good for about 3500 miles then started to make some bad noises and the oil pressure was fluctuating all over the place. Rode it for about 2 miles from the start of the noise and pulled over. I got it home and there was a lot of metal shavings in the cam chest. One of the rear lifters had a metal paste built up on the ridge where it slims down in the center of it.
Oil pump appears to be the cause of the noise. It's a S&S oil pump and two of the rotors in it wouldn't turn freely.
Now the question is what do I do to ensure this doesn't happen again? Do I need to split the cases?
I haven't pulled the cylinders yet to see how the bottom end is. I plan on doing that this weekend.
Thanks for reading.
Crank runout needs to be checked first thing as it comes apart. Then yes the cases should have been split the first time, and EVERYTHING cleaned out. Pull the oil pan replace it or take it apart and clean it if you're able. If the crank is reused, blow out EVERYTHING, heads, completely apart, clean EVERYTHING. Replace the lifters if you didn't. If you did, take them apart and, you guessed it, clean them.
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 24, 2019, 04:28:18 PM
Crank runout needs to be checked first thing as it comes apart. Then yes the cases should have been split the first time, and EVERYTHING cleaned out. Pull the oil pan replace it or take it apart and clean it if you're able. If the crank is reused, blow out EVERYTHING, heads, completely apart, clean EVERYTHING. Replace the lifters if you didn't. If you did, take them apart and, you guessed it, clean them.
:agree: clean clean and clean some more Toss the lifters, remove the piston jets and test them and clean the passage out with the oilers off. REMEMBER it only takes a small piece of shavings to start the destruction all over again. Bob
I was afraid you were going to say that.
I found out that half assed doesn't work very well in some situations though.
Ohio, by checking the crank runout, you mean on the pinion shaft?
Thanks for the help.
Randy
Yes, that may be why the oil pump is damaged. It's a good idea to check the drive side too.
You really should remove and clean the oil pan.
MIKE
Thanks all, I really appreciate the input.
One more question. How difficult is it to split the cases. I used to do top ends on shovels and I'm comfortable pulling the primary and changing cams, but I've never been in the bottom end. Is it something that would be doable for me? I prefer to take care of things myself, but I want this thing fixed for good (at least for the next 6o,ooo miles or so. I don't mind paying someone to do it right, but if it's reasonable that I could do it myself, I would like to do it.
Randy
I truly believe on my bikes and the shops, bottom ends should be done by guys that do them daily, just me
Do you have a service manual, it will show the steps to disassemble and reassemble the cases. I agree with 92, that having a seasoned pro do the bottom end is good insurance, for me anyway.
not trying to be an ass but you tried to fix this last time it happened. better to get someone with some experience and get it done for the last time.
Quote from: DYankee on September 24, 2019, 07:08:04 PM
Thanks all, I really appreciate the input.
One more question. How difficult is it to split the cases. I used to do top ends on shovels and I'm comfortable pulling the primary and changing cams, but I've never been in the bottom end. Is it something that would be doable for me? I prefer to take care of things myself, but I want this thing fixed for good (at least for the next 6o,ooo miles or so. I don't mind paying someone to do it right, but if it's reasonable that I could do it myself, I would like to do it.
Randy
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. That exception is the pressing out and pressing in of the crank bearings (both sides). If you can borrow the specialty tools to remove and replace those bearings, and have a press, then it's actually not a complicated process. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
Quote from: dsvracer on September 25, 2019, 06:10:03 AM
not trying to be an ass but you tried to fix this last time it happened. better to get someone with some experience and get it done for the last time.
Education is expensive. If I gave it a shot, I'd have more experience.
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
Quote from: DYankee on September 24, 2019, 07:08:04 PM
Thanks all, I really appreciate the input.
One more question. How difficult is it to split the cases. I used to do top ends on shovels and I'm comfortable pulling the primary and changing cams, but I've never been in the bottom end. Is it something that would be doable for me? I prefer to take care of things myself, but I want this thing fixed for good (at least for the next 6o,ooo miles or so. I don't mind paying someone to do it right, but if it's reasonable that I could do it myself, I would like to do it.
Randy
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. That exception is the pressing out and pressing in of the crank bearings (both sides). If you can borrow the specialty tools to remove and replace those bearings, and have a press, then it's actually not a complicated process. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
Thanks Les
Quote from: DYankee on September 25, 2019, 12:48:35 PM
Quote from: dsvracer on September 25, 2019, 06:10:03 AM
not trying to be an ass but you tried to fix this last time it happened. better to get someone with some experience and get it done for the last time.
Education is expensive. If I gave it a shot, I'd have more experience.
I agree. Leverage your mistakes into experience and expertise. Or, don't do nothin', make no mistakes, and never become an expert on those things.
Most TC lower ends are easily worked on. Sure send the crank to a pro like Darkhorse if it needs work. The bearings, checking tolerances, etc. is basic mechanical skills and having the factory manual. Based on the bikes in your signature, those are later straight bearing cases. They're not that difficult to learn how to work on. Ask lots of questions when you don't know something.
2007 and up bottom ends relatively simple. You could check the crank run out before you split the case. But that crank which can be prone to slipping the crank pin joint was exposed to copious amounts of metal debris. A full tear down and cleaning is a must and don't forget the oil pan.
In a perfect world a 4.625 S&S crank, 4.125 bore and timkins on output shaft should be installed for maximum fun value :smiled:
MIKE
Actually, 2003 bottom ends and up not complicated to work on. Basically, two half nearly-hollow clam shells with roller bearings that two sticks slip into. Timken? That's a different story.
Its not a difficult job for someone with the right technical abilities. It requires removing the engine from the frame and totally disassembly, cleaning, inspection and re-assembly. This is much more difficult than a cam chest or top end. Very expensive way to get technical training destroying parts until you get it right. No offence but I don't think your technical training at this time is up to the project. Unless you can get someone with ability to over see and help. Let a reputable shop handle it and give you some warrenty. Bob
It's up in the air whether I'll do it all or not. I know there is a much better chance of success if I let an expert do it.
I'm going to check the run out on the pinion and then pull the engine out.
The crank is an S&S as is the cam plate and oil pump.
I appreciate all the input. If I was an unbiased observer that read this thread, my advice would be to let someone else do it too. It doesn't necessarily follow that I'd take my own advice though.
I'm also thinking S&S 111. I'd go 124LC, but I think the 111 would be better for longevity. The 145,000 miles I have on it now are just the beginning so I need to think long term.
Before buying a crate motor, I'd suggest talking to someone about taking yours to 117". You already have the S&S crank, assuming that it's fine, but not knowing the miles on it. It wouldn't be bad money to have it rebuilt, it's already good components.
Your not terribly far from Power House Cycle, Joe Lyons on this site. He's a vendor that supports this site, and can handle your whole motor, and tune after. You'd still have the OEM cases in the bike, and you can build a really nice 117" for what a crate costs, and IMHO will be a better motor. I'd also trust Joe to steer you in the right direction.
http://www.powerhousecd.com/
Asking how hard it is to any repair is subject to the person doing it. Some can do it in their sleep. Some can't put air in a tire with out instructions.
If it is not a Timken bearing crank it should be relatively simple for someone with good mechanical skills.
Quote from: PoorUB on September 26, 2019, 07:19:28 PM
Asking how hard it is to any repair is subject to the person doing it. Some can do it in their sleep. Some can't put air in a tire with out instructions.
If it is not a Timken bearing crank it should be relatively simple for someone with good mechanical skills.
Exactly. Let's see... Not counting the bearings I mentioned, there are three pieces to assemble. The left half case, the right half case, and the flywheel assembly. Now, let's look at the cam chest. How many pieces? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...gee, I can't even count that high.
It seems that many folks (who have done top ends and cam chests) look at the bottom end as some mysterious dark place they should never go. Look at the diagram. A non-Timken bottom end is much less complex than any cam chest or even top end. Three large pieces.
Quote from: les on September 27, 2019, 06:16:09 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on September 26, 2019, 07:19:28 PM
Asking how hard it is to any repair is subject to the person doing it. Some can do it in their sleep. Some can't put air in a tire with out instructions.
If it is not a Timken bearing crank it should be relatively simple for someone with good mechanical skills.
Exactly. Let's see... Not counting the bearings I mentioned, there are three pieces to assemble. The left half case, the right half case, and the flywheel assembly. Now, let's look at the cam chest. How many pieces? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...gee, I can't even count that high.
It seems that many folks (who have done top ends and cam chests) look at the bottom end as some mysterious dark place they should never go. Look at the diagram. A non-Timken bottom end is much less complex than any cam chest or even top end. Three large pieces.
A little more to it than that, engine needs to come right out of the frame and be totally dis assembled to get to the case and crank. lots more pieces than you count. Done right it wont have to come apart again because of leaky seals or slapping drive chain or noisy engine. Little mistakes take a few miles to show up but they do show up all the time. Its very hard to teach yourself mechanical ability. Most don't have a clue about how clean is clean really. Just owning tools does not make you a expert and one should realize there limits. Bob
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
I assume you are referring to a Timken tapered bearing? Why is the tapered Timken bearing more complicated than a parallel roller bearing?
Jason
Quote from: MIKEL on September 26, 2019, 05:18:47 AM
2007 and up bottom ends relatively simple. You could check the crank run out before you split the case. But that crank which can be prone to slipping the crank pin joint was exposed to copious amounts of metal debris. A full tear down and cleaning is a must and don't forget the oil pan.
In a perfect world a 4.625 S&S crank, 4.125 bore and timkins on output shaft should be installed for maximum fun value :smiled:
MIKE
Steve at GMR has some u tube videos that show the oil pan and even the transmission case when it bolts on where trash can hide , pretty good watch free lol
Quote from: Norton Commando on September 28, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
I assume you are referring to a Timken tapered bearing? Why is the tapered Timken bearing more complicated than a parallel roller bearing?
Jason
.
It must be shimmed correctly, where as a roller is just basically slapped in.
Quote from: koko3052 on September 28, 2019, 06:09:37 PM
Quote from: Norton Commando on September 28, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
I assume you are referring to a Timken tapered bearing? Why is the tapered Timken bearing more complicated than a parallel roller bearing?
Jason
.
It must be shimmed correctly, where as a roller is just basically slapped in.
Thank you; like the EVO engines.
Quote from: Norton Commando on September 29, 2019, 05:50:06 AM
Quote from: koko3052 on September 28, 2019, 06:09:37 PM
Quote from: Norton Commando on September 28, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
I assume you are referring to a Timken tapered bearing? Why is the tapered Timken bearing more complicated than a parallel roller bearing?
Jason
.
It must be shimmed correctly, where as a roller is just basically slapped in.
Thank you; like the EVO engines.
Like 55 and up Pans, all Shovels, Evo's and Sportsters.
Quote from: koko3052 on September 28, 2019, 06:09:37 PM
Quote from: Norton Commando on September 28, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Quote from: les on September 25, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
If the bottom end is a Timken sprocket shaft bearing, then it's more complicated. If it's a roller bearing on the sprocket shaft, then the bottom end work is very straight forward, with one exception. I'd say putting on the casing sealant (not too thick, not too thin) is about the most complicated part of the job, if it's not a Timken bottom end.
I assume you are referring to a Timken tapered bearing? Why is the tapered Timken bearing more complicated than a parallel roller bearing?
Jason
.
It must be shimmed correctly, where as a roller is just basically slapped in.
Also, if you don't have the tools, then removing/installing the races can be difficult. If it's a native Timken bottom end, then removing the race spacer is even tougher without the proper tools.