Symptoms of worn lifter bores.

[egstandard]

I can't take it down right now and do a measurement, but what are some of the symptoms of out of spec bores. Cases have 177,000 on them.

[Norton Commando]

One symptom is low oil pressure.

Jason

[rbabos]

Poor lifter pump up is another, especially with hot oil.
Ron

[chaos901]

For my continuing education here, can somebody please explain how the worn lifter bores lower the overall oil pressure.   

[FXDBI]

For my continuing education here, can somebody please explain how the worn lifter bores lower the overall oil pressure.   

They are directly on the discharge side of the pump, excessive clearance will allow for more pressure to bleed of up the bores, piston oilers are on the end of the oil flow to the lifters. Sometimes its not a lifter that's the problem but a stuck piston oiler letting the pressure off has well. Look in the manual on the oil flow.  Bob

[egstandard]

Yeah, I'm in the south right now. It's really hot. When the oil is at 210 degrees, it's a real slacker. I just put in some new lifters from Larry last month, but didn't have a measuring tool. It was quiet after that up North. Not unexpected with that mileage? Well maintained bike.

[egstandard]

Clacker

[Hossamania]

What type of oil? If synthetic, try using conventional, see if it quiets down.
Clacker makes sense, slacker confused me at first, different issue.

[chaos901]

They are directly on the discharge side of the pump, excessive clearance will allow for more pressure to bleed of up the bores, piston oilers are on the end of the oil flow to the lifters. Sometimes its not a lifter that's the problem but a stuck piston oiler letting the pressure off has well. Look in the manual on the oil flow.  Bob

thanks for the explaination

[rbabos]

Don't know what the M8 lifter bores are like but most TC lifter bores were at a clearance I would have deemed as max, in a brand new case. .002 cold and only get's bigger as the engine heats up. Add some wear, they can really leak past the lifters and not keep them charged up. The bores also wear oval at the bottom of the hole so at some point even oversized lifters won't help much.
Ron

[les]

You can get Feuling (with their race lifters) to make any diameter you want.  I bought a set of sized lifters.  They were not quite to exactly what I wanted.  I called them and the lady asked what exact size (to the half thou) I wanted them.  I sent them back and she had them sent back and they were right on the money.

[egstandard]

I'm back home and will drain it tomorrow. I was thinking the same thing. Gonna try some conventional oil. Of course it's not as hot back here in Illinois. I left Tennessee around 7am this morning. The bike was quiet til about noon, and that's when the oil temp starting rising above 180. Once it gets above 200, it's pretty noisy.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I'm back home and will drain it tomorrow. I was thinking the same thing. Gonna try some conventional oil. Of course it's not as hot back here in Illinois. I left Tennessee around 7am this morning. The bike was quiet til about noon, and that's when the oil temp starting rising above 180. Once it gets above 200, it's pretty noisy.

Spectro 25-60 DINO oil works wonders 

[egstandard]

I wish I could find some of that around here. Even some straight 60 weight to experiment with is nowhere to be found. I'll order some of that online. Thanks. I am using your lockouts by the way. So that isn't the problem.

[chaos901]

You can get it on Amazon, 2 day delivery.  Bought a case a couple of weeks ago to give it a try.

[Hossamania]

Any implement dealers nearby? They often carry odd weight oils.

[rbabos]

Something is just plain wrong when you need to run a 50+ weight oil in a modern engine. Just saying.
Ron

[Chippitt68]

 Who's talking about a modern engine?

[PoorUB]

 

[Ohio HD]

Taken from the OEM service manual 94000451 for 2018 touring bikes.


[attach=0]

[PoorUB]

Ohio, did you miss the irony in the previous posts?

[kouack]

Taken from the OEM service manual 94000451 for 2018 touring bikes.


[attach=0,msg1316063]

Liquidmoly 10-60 and done with it 

[Ohio HD]

Taken from the OEM service manual 94000451 for 2018 touring bikes.


[attach=0,msg1316063]

Liquidmoly 10-60 and done with it 

             But I do a 20w60 myself

[Ohio HD]

Ohio, did you miss the irony in the previous posts?

Not at all, but you missed mine. HD doesn't think it's a modern motor, they still recommend 60wt in high ambient temperatures.

[egstandard]

So generally speaking, what is acceptable oil pressure?

[rbabos]

So generally speaking, what is acceptable oil pressure?

Ballpark would be 10-15 idle and about 35-38 above with hot oil.
Ron

[Ohio HD]

My experience, when using the HD factory gauge, around 5 to 7 at idle, and around 30 going down the road. Motor completely warmed up.

[egstandard]

My 04 flht has no oil pressure gauge.  Is there a recommended aftermarket set up?

[les]

My 04 flht has no oil pressure gauge.  Is there a recommended aftermarket set up?

I have the Arlen Ness gauge. 

[IronButt70]

My 04 flht has no oil pressure gauge.  Is there a recommended aftermarket set up?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=101659.msg1195647#msg1195647
Post #11 will give you a link to the gauge I use. Mine is mounted in a fairing. Make sure to use something to seal moisture out of the connections. The backlighting on the pointer needle quit working within the warranty period. The company replaced the gauge. Other than that it's worked like a charm for almost 2 years & 30k miles.

[Norton Commando]

My experience, when using the HD factory gauge, around 5 to 7 at idle, and around 30 going down the road. Motor completely warmed up.

Me too except perhaps 30 to 32 at highway speeds.

Jason

[egstandard]

les, where does the Arlen Ness gauge mount? And where is it getting the oil feed from?

[les]

les, where does the Arlen Ness gauge mount? And where is it getting the oil feed from?

It mounts to the two right rear rocker cover bolts on the rear rocker housing.  It has a steel braided line that goes down to the oil pressure sensor.  They give you an inline fitting that you screw into the engine casing.  You screw the line into that fitting and also your oil pressure sensor.  So, to examine your oil pressure, you look down just inside your right thigh.

[IronButt70]

les, where does the Arlen Ness gauge mount? And where is it getting the oil feed from?

It mounts to the two right rear rocker cover bolts on the rear rocker housing.  It has a steel braided line that goes down to the oil pressure sensor.  They give you an inline fitting that you screw into the engine casing.  You screw the line into that fitting and also your oil pressure sensor.  So, to examine your oil pressure, you look down just inside your right thigh.

I've seen those type gauges and would personally never use one. Taking your eyes off the road for even a split second is a very bad idea. JMHO

[PoorUB]

Do yourself a favor. If you are interested in your old pressure. Screw on a temporary guage, run it for a few minutes and varify the oil pressure then remove the guage and just ride it. One less thing to worry about.

[egstandard]

But I'd like to know what it is going down the road
Isn't that a better indicator of a worn lifter bore than at idle?

[Hossamania]

That's what he meant, run it down the road for a few minutes once warm, and call it good.

[Hossamania]

les, where does the Arlen Ness gauge mount? And where is it getting the oil feed from?

If you have a fairing, you could mount a permanent gauge in the dash.
If no dash, there are gauges that mount to your handlebar clamp. Then no need to look down to see the gauge. I have one mounted stock in the dash, I look at it about once or twice a year.

[egstandard]

I do. But I like the temporary idea. Now if it was only 1970 and I could drive down to the local speed shop and pick up a mechanical gauge and fittings.

[Hossamania]

j-p-cycles-oil-pressure-gauge-kit

The cheapest I could quickly find. Many other options.

[egstandard]

Thanks. Think I'll go nose around at O'Reilly and Advance auto. They have a small Hot Rod section.

[egstandard]

I did change over to some Harley dino oil. I mixed 2 quarts of 20w50 with 2 qts. of straight 60. Temps only in the mid to low 80's here yesterday.  But it was nice and quiet. But oil temps never got above 185. Around 200 is where it would get clackey.

[egstandard]

I put a temporary oil pressure gauge on it. It's a kit made by feuling. I got the oil good and hot idling on the lift. I have 8 psi of pressure at 1,000 rpm. It's raining so I can't ride it. But I held it at a steady 3,000 rpm and had 40psi on the gauge. But at 2,500 rpm, right at 28 psi.

[egstandard]

Looks like I'm in the ballpark. Feuling likes to see 7-10 psi. per 1,000 rpm.

[rbabos]

Looks like I'm in the ballpark. Feuling likes to see 7-10 psi. per 1,000 rpm.

Why, it's not a plain bearing engine?
Ron

[Ohio HD]

Maximum oil pressure I see on my 124 at say 6,000 rpm is about 45psi. That's with an S&S three stage and cam plate. The motor doesn't need more than that. Like I mentioned, at cruise about 30psi.

[egstandard]

They said for adequate oiling of the top end. Just relaying what I read somewhere on their site. The page was on lifter bores and oversize lifters for worn bores. Which I don't think I have with this good oil pressure. But something isn't right. Maybe a valve guide or seat. I'm pulling heads tomorrow.

[FXDBI]

Maybe you have a piston oiler stuck open.   Bob

[rbabos]

Maybe you have a piston oiler stuck open.   Bob

The way I see it, that would effect idle pressure big time but past 15psi they are open full time anyway, likely no effect on running oil psi numbers.
Ron

[FXDBI]

Maybe you have a piston oiler stuck open.   Bob

The way I see it, that would effect idle pressure big time but past 15psi they are open full time anyway, likely no effect on running oil psi numbers.
Ron

Well actually it will make the oil pressure act funky. I have a gauge piped in with the sensor 2 years ago while still in a 95in configuration I noticed the oil pressure oil pressure had dropped  at highway speeds and at idle and would fluctuate. Tearing the engine down inspecting it and changing crankshaft and installing a 110 kit I found the front oiler stuck open, and the rear leaking.  New piston oilers with the assembly and its all back to normal.
This is my first hand experience with the piston oilers.  Running the stock pump and cam plate that it come with  15 psi hot idle and 45 going down the road.  Bob

[egstandard]

Well that might be my problem. Got it good and hot today. 6-8 psi at idle at 1000 rpm. 35-40 at going down the road. Can you get in there to change those with the jugs and pistons off?

[kouack]

Well that might be my problem. Got it good and hot today. 6-8 psi at idle at 1000 rpm. 35-40 at going down the road. Can you get in there to change those with the jugs and pistons off?

6-8 @ idle is what i see and north of 30 at highway speed what is wrong with this? To me this is perfectly normal.

[Hossamania]

Does the light come on at idle? If not, run it.

[Ohio HD]

Well that might be my problem. Got it good and hot today. 6-8 psi at idle at 1000 rpm. 35-40 at going down the road. Can you get in there to change those with the jugs and pistons off?

Your oil pressure is in line. Are you sure the noise is due to lifters?

[egstandard]

Tomorrow it will be back together with a known good set of low mileage heads and rockers. Lifters are new. Heads that are on it have 85,000 on them. Rockers that are on it are original at 180,000 miles. Lifters are new a month ago. I'm looking at the bore now and it is good. 20,000 miles on 95 inch bore June of 18. Should have do e heads then, but no time. Bottom end timken conversion, balanced , trued, welded, h beam rods. Gear drive Andrew's 26. Feuling cam plate and pump. That was done in 15. I really think now it's a guide, rocker shafts or valve seat.

[egstandard]

Up and running. The unusual tapping noise I had is now gone. I put it through the wringer pretty good. Runs fine. When I get time, I'll tear down the heads and rockers I took off and investigate. Thanks all for your help and advice.

[les]

Well that might be my problem. Got it good and hot today. 6-8 psi at idle at 1000 rpm. 35-40 at going down the road. Can you get in there to change those with the jugs and pistons off?

Yes, I've changed piston jets with the jugs off and the short block in the frame.  You just need to be careful you don't drop the tiny screws down into the short block.  I'll stuff rags down there as an attempt to catch it if I get clumsy.  I've not dropped as screw yet, but I'm sure that's going to happen.