Max Torque 110 Drop on Kit Bagger Build

[Winston Wolf]

Upgrading my Rushmore 103 to a Screamin Eagle 110 drop on kit this winter, and looking to get my ducks in a row.

Currently has CR570-2 cams. Fuel Motor Jackpot header with Crusher Mellows and Fuel moto A/C.  Power Vision Tuner with Target Tune module currently installed.

I am not concerned with HP above 5000 RPM or meeting a certain HP goal.  I want the bike to have the most possible torque from 2000-4500.  I tend to roll on the throttle from 60-65 to pass semi's, without wanting to shift down; and generally don't want to downshift at highway speeds (within reason). I also want the lease amount of engine noise possible on this particular bike.

This bike is used to travel, so it can see fuel from any state. It is run from freezing cold to Death Valley hot, and from sea level to the highest Mt peaks. It spends a lot of time fully loaded and/or 2 up.

I am willing to port the heads, but was thinking at a minimum of AV&V valves to freshen it up (and hopefully keep it quiet).  I will obviously set the compression to whatever the cam I end up using needs, but I do not want the bike to be detonation prone, so want to stay on the mid-lower end of the spectrum CCP wise.  I did have some pinging issues this summer in Nevada (100 deg heat, 30+ MPH headwinds) that even riding in 5th at 70 MPH wouldn't cure.  I have a pretty conservative tune right now too.

I can keep the cams I have, or change them, that is not an issue.

I haven't picked anyone to do the headwork yet, so that's still up in the air.

Wondering if all things being equal, if the Cr575 would give up anything in the low end to the Cr570-2 (say 10.2:1 and a quality valve job) or if setting them both up optimally (headwork, compression)  would show a difference in the 2-4k range. 

[kd]

From the graphs I see in the Dyno Section the CR575 will out perform the 570-2 at lower RPM and drop out at the top when the 570 keeps some in the bank.  Run through a few pages in that section and you'll see some recipes with comments on performance for both of those cams.  The 570-2 is new and recently very popular so you may have to page a way back to get a good comparison. Pay attention to the model of motorcycle and support modifications when you read about the seat of the pants stuff.

[Ohio HD]

Several 110" with S&S 585 sheets in the dyno section. They're nothing to sneeze at.

With head work
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=103888.msg1228450#msg1228450


Without head work
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96855.msg1127762#msg1127762

[biggzed]

Have you considered a 30 tooth trans pulley? Huge bang for the buck IMO. Combined with a good engine combo it can be very effective for the uses you describe in the OP. It can negate the need for a ton of low end tq. You might find you can get by with a milder build.

Zach

[Winston Wolf]

Have you considered a 30 tooth trans pulley? Huge bang for the buck IMO. Combined with a good engine combo it can be very effective for the uses you describe in the OP. It can negate the need for a ton of low end tq. You might find you can get by with a milder build.

Zach

I get where you are coming from, but when I head west, the speed limits are 80 MPH, and we often ride at 85+.  I don't want to raise the engine RPM's any more than they are to be honest.

[Hossamania]

Just an observation, but if you are rolling 60-65 in 6th gear and want to pass a semi, downshift.

[PoorUB]

Just an observation, but if you are rolling 60-65 in 6th gear and want to pass a semi, downshift.

Two times!

[lucasg]

Have you considered a 30 tooth trans pulley? Huge bang for the buck IMO. Combined with a good engine combo it can be very effective for the uses you describe in the OP. It can negate the need for a ton of low end tq. You might find you can get by with a milder build.

Zach

Hey Zach,
Just curious about your suggestion.  I thought the 09' and newer touring models got different gearing cause many folks were complaining about too tall a first gear for the 08's ?   But definitely yes I agree with you as that's one of the avenues I was perusing before I did my HQ 107 kit on my 08 Street Glide.

[FXDBI]

Have you considered a 30 tooth trans pulley? Huge bang for the buck IMO. Combined with a good engine combo it can be very effective for the uses you describe in the OP. It can negate the need for a ton of low end tq. You might find you can get by with a milder build.

Zach

I get where you are coming from, but when I head west, the speed limits are 80 MPH, and we often ride at 85+.  I don't want to raise the engine RPM's any more than they are to be honest.

I have a SE 110 drop on kit with headquarters heads with S&S  585  set @ 10.7 stock TB in a 06 Dyna. The engine pulls to redline @ 80 mph its purring ready to go to redline. Not a bagger but the combo just works well.   Bob

[rhuff]

Have you considered a 30 tooth trans pulley? Huge bang for the buck IMO. Combined with a good engine combo it can be very effective for the uses you describe in the OP. It can negate the need for a ton of low end tq. You might find you can get by with a milder build.

Zach

I get where you are coming from, but when I head west, the speed limits are 80 MPH, and we often ride at 85+.  I don't want to raise the engine RPM's any more than they are to be honest.

I have had a 2015 RGS since new and just sold my 2003 RKC with 5spd.  And live in Las Vegas.  I would run that 5spd all day at 90-95MPH.  The 2015 doesn't usually see 6th until I'm at 80MPH.  No logical reason that RPM's going up appx 200 RPM should be an issue at all. 

And yeah, downshift. 

[Winston Wolf]

Just an observation, but if you are rolling 60-65 in 6th gear and want to pass a semi, downshift.

I'm not talking about passing a semi on a 2 lane road as fast as possible or going WFO from 2000 RPMs in high gear.  I shouldn't need to shift down on a 4 lane freeway to roll past anything from 65 MPH.  I know how to correctly ride a motorcycle, and I know when to shift.  I'm just looking for input on cams and headwork, not drivers education.

[Hossamania]

OK

[rigidthumper]

Cylinder pressure builds torque- and the closer to idle your torque peak is, the higher the CCP is going to be. A good tune will help with the detonation, (100 deg heat, 30+ MPH headwinds) but there are limits.
HD 110 drop on (as delivered is 10.21:1 CR), your cams or TTS100s, SEHB, SE58TB, heads ported for usable street torque & port matched to the TB, FS DX head pipe with Crusher mellows or FS baffles in your mufflers, tune it, and bob's your uncle.
If you want a very similar curve with a little more HP, zero deck the cylinders and use a .030 HG, and switch cams to the TTS150 or CR575.

[harpwrench]

Check out this budget build, it's posted in the dyno section but the sheet is gone, reposting from joe's Facebook page.

[shindig]

How much money do you want to spend?  An s&s 110 kit with s&s 585 cams seems to be the best value.  No headwork, injectors, throttle body upgrades.  Now if you go all in and do heads, throttle body, and injectors than you have a lot to think about.  I would look at a cam around 590 lift with all that work.  Keep CCP in mind too.  Not sure what would be recommended for your application.  For sure under 200.  A professional could chime in there.  Also need to think about your exhaust and if you are upgrading that or keeping whatever you have.  It's the whole build....not just the "best" random parts together.

[festus]

Why not get a low altitude tune and a high altitude tune, this does help.

Put a DD7 in with a 34 tooth on the tranny. all gears 1-6 lower and 7th a little higher than now.
Prob same price as motor work and better results from what I have run.
Can wait and try to Geta tranny on Baker Black Friday sale......

[Hossamania]

Why not get a low altitude tune and a high altitude tune, this does help.

Put a DD7 in with a 34 tooth on the tranny. all gears 1-6 lower and 7th a little higher than now.
Prob same price as motor work and better results from what I have run.
Can wait and try to Geta tranny on Baker Black Friday sale......

Does this mean he would have to downshift to pass a semi? Unacceptable to the op.

[Barrett]

If you're not gonna let the transmission do the work you need more cubes.

[Don D]

What year is the bike?

[Hossamania]

If you're not gonna let the transmission do the work you need more cubes.

Hence, the reason for asking about the 110 kit, cams, and headwork in the op.

[Barrett]

If you're not gonna let the transmission do the work you need more cubes.

Hence, the reason for asking about the 110 kit, cams, and headwork in the op.

I know, I meant more than 110".

[Hossamania]

If you're not gonna let the transmission do the work you need more cubes.

Hence, the reason for asking about the 110 kit, cams, and headwork in the op.

I know, I meant more than 110".

I like your thinking!

[Winston Wolf]

What year is the bike?

2016

[Don D]

So it is water cooled?

[Winston Wolf]

So it is water cooled?

No, air cooled. It's a Special.

[dheath9994]

Personally I wouldn't do any of this without having the bottom end trued and welded at the very least. I did tried, pro plugged, new rods and welded with a Timken conversion on my 110 build. Also you should do a Barnett clutch basket when making over 120ft/lbs or your clutch will more or less just be a time bomb.

I did fuel moto 110
10.4:1 compression
Stage 2 ported and polished heads
Bored and ported stock TB (ported intake to flow match heads and TB)
CR 575 cams
Screaming eagle cam plate and oil pump (runs at about 42lbs of pressure now as opposed to 30)
Wolf alpha lifters
Barnett clutch basket with a Barnett HD spring and AIM vpc68lt for a clutch

I'm making 110hp and 129ft/lbs bike makes over 120ft/lbs from about 2700rpm all the way to just before 5000

[Don D]

Our Street Pro heads with the Harley or S&S 110 drop on kit will get you into the teens for hp with 130tq.
This has been done many times as long as a recommended pipe and quality tune are used and done.
The pipe will determine the shape of the curve.

[Winston Wolf]

I installed the 110 kit.  Everything measured out perfect, didn't even have to adjust any of the ring gaps.  I did cc the pistons, and the reliefs are -2.6 cc total per piston. Both pistons came in a .010 down the hole.  So, with 85cc nominal stock heads and a .040 head gasket, it would come in right at the 10.2 as advertised.

[Winston Wolf]

Attached I what I have now that the engine is together.  Heads are ported and cc'd at 85cc's.  10.39 static. 

I haven't finalized my cam choice yet, so I'd like some opinions.  I was leaning towards the CR575 (ccc of 205), but I'm a bit concerned about detonation in a big bagger with this high of compression. Perhaps a Tman 590PS2 (ccc down to 198).

Any suggestions are welcomed. 

Has anyone tuned the CR575 at the higher compression levels and have a detonation free engine?  I ran that cam 10 years ago at 10:1 in a 95", and had to pull the timing back to stop it from pinging, although it was a carbureted bike...

[IronButt70]

The 2015 doesn't usually see 6th until I'm at 80MPH.  No logical reason that RPM's going up appx 200 RPM should be an issue at all. 

And yeah, downshift.

I've often wondered about cruising RPMs and look at it strictly from a numbers point of view. 200 more RPMs means the engine makes 12k more revs per hour. Does that play into the wear factor over time? 100 hours = 1.2 million more revs. Just curious.

[kd]

The 2015 doesn't usually see 6th until I'm at 80MPH.  No logical reason that RPM's going up appx 200 RPM should be an issue at all. 

And yeah, downshift.

I've often wondered about cruising RPMs and look at it strictly from a numbers point of view. 200 more RPMs means the engine makes 12k more revs per hour. Does that play into the wear factor over time? 100 hours = 1.2 million more revs. Just curious.

I'd say the 200 RPM at cruise more causes the engine to run where it is not subjected to hard work.  That is evident by the lower throttle requirement to maintain the chosen speed in headwinds or grades.   My experience is also better mileage which I feel is further evidence that the engine is being taxed to a lesser degree.  I think pushing it to get the job done is more detrimental than the accumulated RPM difference.   

[Hossamania]

The 2015 doesn't usually see 6th until I'm at 80MPH.  No logical reason that RPM's going up appx 200 RPM should be an issue at all. 

And yeah, downshift.

I've often wondered about cruising RPMs and look at it strictly from a numbers point of view. 200 more RPMs means the engine makes 12k more revs per hour. Does that play into the wear factor over time? 100 hours = 1.2 million more revs. Just curious.

I'd say the 200 RPM at cruise more causes the engine to run where it is not subjected to hard work.  That is evident by the lower throttle requirement to maintain the chosen speed in headwinds or grades.   My experience is also better mileage which I feel is further evidence that the engine is being taxed to a lesser degree.  I think pushing it to get the job done is more detrimental than the accumulated RPM difference.

I tend to agree with this. I run a 95" motor with a cam that makes its power a bit further up the tach. I find that 4th gear at 55 to 60 miles per hour, even 65 based on conditions, actually gets better fuel mileage than 5th gear does, and the motor does not feel sluggish or taxed as it does in 5th. 117,000 miles of high rpm abuse on this motor, and it still runs well. Putting the motor in its sweet spot and running a few more rpms is easier on the motor than lugging it a bit to save accumulated revolutions over the long, and short, haul. This of course my opinion based on beating engines for 40 years, no actual formal education on the subject.

[IronButt70]

The 2015 doesn't usually see 6th until I'm at 80MPH.  No logical reason that RPM's going up appx 200 RPM should be an issue at all. 

And yeah, downshift.

I've often wondered about cruising RPMs and look at it strictly from a numbers point of view. 200 more RPMs means the engine makes 12k more revs per hour. Does that play into the wear factor over time? 100 hours = 1.2 million more revs. Just curious.

I'd say the 200 RPM at cruise more causes the engine to run where it is not subjected to hard work.  That is evident by the lower throttle requirement to maintain the chosen speed in headwinds or grades.   My experience is also better mileage which I feel is further evidence that the engine is being taxed to a lesser degree.  I think pushing it to get the job done is more detrimental than the accumulated RPM difference.

I've read about RPMs and mileage and I have tested that but found in my case no measurable difference other than riding against strong headwinds. I never lug the engine and have specific shift patterns like never below 30 in 3rd, 40 in 4th, 55 in 5th and 70 in 6th. I don't ride hard but I do "get on it" every now and then to blow out the carbon so to speak. 52k trouble free miles in 2 1/2 years and counting so far so I like to think I'm doing the right things. 

[Durwood]

Attached I what I have now that the engine is together.  Heads are ported and cc'd at 85cc's.  10.39 static. 

I haven't finalized my cam choice yet, so I'd like some opinions.  I was leaning towards the CR575 (ccc of 205), but I'm a bit concerned about detonation in a big bagger with this high of compression. Perhaps a Tman 590PS2 (ccc down to 198).

Any suggestions are welcomed. 

Has anyone tuned the CR575 at the higher compression levels and have a detonation free engine?  I ran that cam 10 years ago at 10:1 in a 95", and had to pull the timing back to stop it from pinging, although it was a carbureted bike...

I have. The CR-575 will work well at your calculated ccp.

[Don D]

Has anyone tuned the CR575 at the higher compression levels and have a detonation free engine?

Yes and that is the 130tq option.

[Marty33]

dheath, what was the cost of that build?

[dheath9994]

For big bore kit
Heads
Cams
Flywheel and case work
Plus the clutch setup
I'd have to look at receipts but probably around $3000

[spdrcr]

Look at the 110 Drop in that's by Just Nick in the Dyno section.

[harvman]

Winston, what cam did you go with and what kind of #'s did you get? Was it worth the change from your old build with the 570-2?

[Don D]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,99708.msg1166148.html#msg1166148

This is what I was referring to

[CVOThunder]

That works Don. Also liking the one Steve did as well but almost puts it into the "tear the bottom down for Timken bearing mod" territory. Wouldn't hurt either one I reckon. My 2011 110 CVO would benefit from everything but piston and jug upgrade. We'll see where I'm at this winter.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103888.msg1228450.html#msg1228450

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Most 110" drop -on's will push 130 fT/lbs here.
.575, Andrews 57, Wood 408-6, are 3 of which we've seen do it.

[Bafflingbs]

I'm at 117hp/130tq with my 110" using 10.5/1 CP pistons, Woods 999-6A cams, level b heads and a ported 50mm throttle body.

[Thermodyne]

Just put a Tire shredder kit on it.  Its the most bang for the buck out there. 

With a set of 585ez's in place of the 259e's mine pulled at 129/125 tuned with a Thundermax using a Jackpot pipe and V&H High output cans.

[Deye76]

Is the OP (Winston) at sea level?

[George W]

Just put a Tire shredder kit on it.  Its the most bang for the buck out there. 

With a set of 585ez's in place of the 259e's mine pulled at 129/125 tuned with a Thundermax using a Jackpot pipe and V&H High output cans.

I would love to see your Dyno Sheet..

[Thermodyne]

[Tail Ridr]

Definitely a nice curve   

[Thermodyne]

To be completely truthfull, it had some extra TLC during the build.  The heads were cleaned up, the Harley cnc work is pretty rough.  And it got a set of 010 over rings filed to the minimum gap spec.  The rings that came with had huge gaps.  Its also on top of a set of S&S wheels that were balanced to the piston package weight with a Timken conversion.

[spdrcr]

There are several VERY experienced head porters, engine builders, and tuners that have responded here. If you need help choosing one? PM me.