Transmission leaking, diagnosis

[klammer76]

I developed a  leak from my SE OD6 transmission recently. Did a 400 mile ride and the next day a puddle on the ground. Nothing special about that ride vs any other. I installed the complete transmission new in 2017. It has 14,000 miles on it. No problems at all up to this point. It is in my 2002, 103" FLH. Mild build, (111HP/119TQ). No hole shots, wheelies etc.

Got a chance to get it apart today. Really kind of nasty, lube is Mobil 1 (have run it for years). Lot of gunk, almost looks like grease around the pulley. Assume a mix of lube, dirt, belt dust? Has a rust like color. Tranny came with a Jims mega nut installed from factory. Grabbed the pulley and noticed I could move it ever so slightly ( pulley loose). Removed the two socket heads and turned the nut off with my fingers. Removed the pulley, looks like it is the quad seal, leaking down the splines to primary side of pulley (back of pulley covered also). Can feel slight up/down play in the main shaft. Set up dial indicator and get .006 run out. Can't feel any end play but need to figure out how to isolate the bike on  my table to check w/o getting false reading.

So, what would allow the pulley to become loose? I didn't check it when I installed as it was factory new. Maybe a mistake but I have had 14,000 problem free miles. So, could this be a right side trap door bearing issue causing pulley to get loose taking out the quad seal? The large seal appears to be dry. S&S tapered race is where it should be. Member, djl had a similar problem a few years ago and his needle bearings in main drive gear walked. Going to pull the ipb race and large seal tomorrow.

When checking the shaft run out I measured off the S&S IPB race. I assume this should actually be done off the shaft itself correct? Transmissions are a new area for me.

Thanks,
klammer

[Pirsch Fire Wagon]

That is a Problem with the Cruise Drives.
Could be the Seal.
Could Be the Bearing.
Most probably the Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair. 
Although, they didn't start showing up regularly until the mid-later 2k's. What year is the Transmission?

Is there ANY (any at all) movement of the shaft Laterally? If not, a Seal would perhaps get-er-done. If there is movement, Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair (If you have the Tool).

[klammer76]

That is a Problem with the Cruise Drives.
Could be the Seal.
Could Be the Bearing.
Most probably the Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair. 
Although, they didn't start showing up regularly until the mid-later 2k's. What year is the Transmission?

Is there ANY (any at all) movement of the shaft Laterally? If not, a Seal would perhaps get-er-done. If there is movement, Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair (If you have the Tool).

Transmission is a Screamin Eagle over drive 6 speed. Bought it new in 2017 as a complete unit. If I am not mistaken, these were assembled by Jim's. Majority of the parts in this transmission are -03 parts.

Can't feel any movement pulling or pushing on main shaft (in& out) but need to fab up a mount for indicator to check end play. I can feel and see movement (on dial indicator) when holding the shaft and moving it up and down.

[les]

When you did the SE tranny, did you replace the pulley spacer, or did you re-install the old spacer?

[klammer76]

Haven't done anything yet, still figuring out what I need and the cause. I have a new spacer.

[Armin]

It could be a leaking quad seal that sits on the main shaft and seals against the 6th gear end.

Armin.

[koko3052]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

[les]

Haven't done anything yet, still figuring out what I need and the cause. I have a new spacer.

Ok, good.  One main cause of the stack coming loose is the spacer collapsing.  The new spacer, and of course quad seal, should solve the problem.  Also, make sure the main drive gear threads are totally clean for the large pulley nut.  I recommend quick dry electrical cleaner and using about 5 drops of red loctite on the nut threads.  It's not uncommon for the stack to come loose because of that darn spacer.

[Armin]

And make sure that you use the S&S spacer (inner bearing race) which has an inner shoulder that prevents walking inward.

Armin.

[FSG]

And make sure that you use the S&S spacer (inner bearing race) which has an inner shoulder that prevents walking inward.

Armin.

Do NOT call the S&S Inner Bearing Race a SPACER as it is NOT.

In the OP he states that "S&S tapered race is where it should be" so he's all good there.

[Armin]

@FSG

Ooops, sorry, my mistake!

Armin.

[Norton Commando]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

[smoserx1]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

[klammer76]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

That makes some sense. Long day away today so didn't do much. I removed the S&S race and no sign of leaking that I can see from the 5th gear. I did try to pull the spacer out but it will only come out so far then feels like a shoulder is hitting on the back of the large seal (I removed the spacer on my old 5 speed and it pulled right out). Will pull the seal and space as on when I get a chance. I have alway run mobil 1 synthetic gear lube in my transmissions. No issues. I trued Spectro 6 speed lube the summer of 2018. I switched back to mobil 1 this summer. That also may be the reason for the color. I have the lube in a pan and will look at it tomorrow, light not great in the garage at night. There was some gold flake in the lube that I could see.

Need to pull the right side cover also and have a look. Wondering about the trap door bearings. smoserx, your description sounds like what may have happened. I assumed it was assembled correctly. I should have removed the pulley nut and re torqued it to begin with. They had the IPB race .020 from the nose of the main drive gear from the factory. I removed it and installed the S&S race. That should have been a clue to check the pulley nut.

Very long day tomorrow, one funeral and one wake with a lot of miles in between so no work tomorrow on this. Hopefully later this weekend.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

koko, I have the lube in a pan and will look at it tomorrow. There was some gold flake in the lube that I could see.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

[Norton Commando]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

Yes, when you lose the pulley clamping force it becomes free to move a tiny bit with each revolution. It's almost microscopic movement but enough to gradually wear the metal away at all metal-to-metal interface areas.  The result is a very fine metal powder than soon becomes rust-like and when mixed with gear lube it turns to goo.

Jason

[les]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

In addition to the nut being unbelievably tight, the threads of the main drive gear need to be unbelievably clean.  Again, the quick dry electrical cleaner spray (AutoZone) gets those threads that way.  Red loctite too is required.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

Yes, when you lose the pulley clamping force it becomes free to move a tiny bit with each revolution. It's almost microscopic movement but enough to gradually wear the metal away at all metal-to-metal interface areas.  The result is a very fine metal powder than soon becomes rust-like and when mixed with gear lube it turns to goo.

Jason

Jason & others, so my question is, what is the cause to lose the pulley clamping force? Not toght enough from the factory when assembled? This has been fine for 14,000 miles. Interestingly, the mega nut does not show any signs of loctite ever having been applied.

I am trying to determine the root cause for the loosening of the pulley so hopefully this doesn't happen again.

A couple of things I did notice recently:

- Last two rides, belt was making a rubbing/groaning sound at the front pulley when hot from a ride and pushing bike around the garage to park it Like belt rubbing on outer shoulder of front pulley. Never did this before. Belt was adjusted properly. This was causing me some concern.

Clutch also has been engaging further out from the grip this year. Thought the clutch was getting worn with the power and dyno tuning (was going to install an alto carbonite next spring). Lever also was a little sloppier when hot. I do run a Muller arm but this has never been an issue.

What are the symptoms of the right side trap door bearings having an issue, ie how do I determine if they are good, check for end play I assume?

Thanks

[les]

I'll give my opinion.  The critical location is where the spacer touches the inner race of the main tranny bearing.  I believe two things can happen.  First, of course, if the main nut comes just a little bit loose (because of improper cleaning, improper torque, and improper use of red Loctite) then the race starts to rub against the race and creates a groove.  Thus, loosening the stack.

The second of my opinions is highly controversial, and I'm sure I'll get some disagreement.  The torque on the nut is pretty big.  I think that some of the spacers are not hardened consistently during manufacturing.  We see this a lot with the case hardening of cams, where some of them wear through to the grey under belly too quickly, while others seem to last forever.  I believe that with an improperly made spacer, the spacer starts to collapse, or crush in a tiny bit so to speak.  Once even just a little bit of crush happens, then the stack gets loose, the race rubs against the inner race, a groove happens, and things go bad very quickly.  The house of cards falls down.  This might explain why a factory setup falls apart.  I know this is far fetched, but I've scratched my head about this too.  Let me give you a real-life example, and I realize it's only one data point.

I had a friend who installed a Baker DD6.  He didn't replace the spacer with new.  He only was able to ride the bike for a couple of weeks before the stack came loose.  Of course the spacer had a groove.  I told him that he should always use a new spacer, so when he did the repair he got a new spacer.  The second time, his bike is solid as a rock.

Bottom line, I really think the spacer is a weak point.  Maybe it's not as hard as the bearing material of the inner race.  So, there's my dumb opinion.  I'm a bit embarrassed to post this opinion, but after scratching my head about this maybe I'll learn the answer too.

[FXDBI]

Improper installation will cause it to be loose. Service manual says to make sure the faces of the nut and pulley have oil on them. Tighten up by hand and torque to 100Ft lbs , then back it off loose and re-torque to 35 ft lbs. Then scribe a 45 degree mark and tighten up to it. If the clamping plate holes don't line up to tighten only until they do, do not loosen to get the holes lined up. The spacer/ seal running face can be reused if its not wore. Makes no mention of not re-using it or it being a one time crush use. If the faces are not all surgically clean and lubed you will get a false torque initially and things are not all seated right only to come loose at a later date. It will also be loose if the bearing is going south and the endplay goes up taking the load off the nut. I do not think it has anything to do with the hardness of the spacer and is totally from assembly error if it loosens up after work has been preformed on it 2nd time lucky has some say. First time learning is what I say.  Bob

[kd]

"Clutch also has been engaging further out from the grip this year. Thought the clutch was getting worn with the power and dyno tuning (was going to install an alto carbonite next spring). Lever also was a little sloppier when hot. I do run a Muller arm but this has never been an issue."

FWIW, the free play in the lever grows as the temp rises in the transmission.  That's what you are noticing.  I adjust my Muller lever to barely showing free play when cold and use the internal clutch cable return spring modification to ensure the release bearing does not drag.  As everything comes up to temp that free play at the lever increases to more normal dimensions.

[les]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

[FXDBI]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

les, Good explanation. I have a new spacer and new 3 guyz pulley nut (mega nut style). I can't see where any loctite was used on this. For some reason at 14,000 mile mark it decided to come loose. I cleaned up the transmission today. Working on cleaning the main drive gear and pulley threads now. Wire brushed and electrical cleaner with wire wheel, tooth brush and brass brush. I have always used CRC Lectra-Motive. Poor mans parts cleaner is what I call it. Main drive gear pully threads have a slight gall in one area but nothing major. Want to get it a lot cleaner. Going to pull the large seal tomorrow and see what is up with the spacer and why it won't come out of the seal.

The drained tranny fluid had the brownish, rust color to it. I think this is due to draining the Spectro from the 2018 season and going back to mobil 1. I recall the spectro was a reddish color.

Couple of questions:

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

- Going to replace the shift shaft seal with double lip also. I have done these before.