Transmission leaking, diagnosis

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

[smoserx1]

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

Klammer, whenever I have done this service on my bike I have removed the spacer first then used an ordinary small open end wrench to pry on the inside diameter of the large seal (where the spacer was).  I have always been able to remove the spacer with my fingers but didn't you say yours didn't want to come out?  If you can't get it out by hand you can probably drill a small hole on the OD of the seal and thread in a screw so you can pull/pry on that.  That is how I always remove the shifter shaft seal.  Be aware when you remove that large seal most of your tranny oil will spill out, so drain it first.  (Learned this the hard way).  I have also always put a light coat of blue loctite on the OD of that large seal and just pushed it in by hand.  If it sounds like I have done this allot it is because I change all these seals every time the inner primary is off no matter what.  You didn't mention the 5th gear/mainshaft seal (the one between the input & output shafts) but I would change that too.  I have always gotten it out with a small flat screwdriver (space is tight).  I now have that Lisle small seal puller I will try next time but the screwdriver works fine prying from the inside out gradually in a circle from the inside diameter.  Usually takes me about 30 or so iterations to get it but it always comes out, and I use the tube part of the race installer tool along with an old race (or piece of PVC pipe) and the clutch hub nut to install a new seal.  Never had an issue doing this.  Good luck!

[MikeL]

In addition to the quad seal I also apply a bead of rtv on the inside of the spacer it keeps the oil from tracking up the splines .

                                                                                                      MIKE

[les]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

The SE was probably a gear set you got and installed?  So, nothing to do with assembly problems from H-D.  Plus, one instance I fixed was a 1999 Road Glide, where the pulley nut came loose.  It's not factory assembly problems, it's the spacer.  Some of them give way after a while, probably like how some of the S&S cams wear through.  Inconsistent heat treating of the spacer, or that the vibration of the inner race against the spacer over time just collapses the spacer.  The 1999 Road Glide has 80K miles on it when it showed up in my garage because the stack came loose.  That ain't no factory assembly situation.

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

The SE was probably a gear set you got and installed?  So, nothing to do with assembly problems from H-D.  Plus, one instance I fixed was a 1999 Road Glide, where the pulley nut came loose.  It's not factory assembly problems, it's the spacer.  Some of them give way after a while, probably like how some of the S&S cams wear through.  Inconsistent heat treating of the spacer, or that the vibration of the inner race against the spacer over time just collapses the spacer.  The 1999 Road Glide has 80K miles on it when it showed up in my garage because the stack came loose.  That ain't no factory assembly situation.

It was the complete transmission with case, fully assembled. Not disputing that the spacer was or could have been a part of the cause but I question how well it was torqued during assembly. I see no evidence of loctite having been used either. I'll check the size of the spacer against the new one and the one from my 5 speed. On my original 5 speed, It took the most powerful 1/2" air impact they had a the garage I hang out at to get the pulley nut to break free. It strained a lot. The only issue I had with that tranny was the IPB race walking in.

[klammer76]

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

Klammer, whenever I have done this service on my bike I have removed the spacer first then used an ordinary small open end wrench to pry on the inside diameter of the large seal (where the spacer was).  I have always been able to remove the spacer with my fingers but didn't you say yours didn't want to come out?  If you can't get it out by hand you can probably drill a small hole on the OD of the seal and thread in a screw so you can pull/pry on that.  That is how I always remove the shifter shaft seal.  Be aware when you remove that large seal most of your tranny oil will spill out, so drain it first.  (Learned this the hard way).  I have also always put a light coat of blue loctite on the OD of that large seal and just pushed it in by hand.  If it sounds like I have done this allot it is because I change all these seals every time the inner primary is off no matter what.  You didn't mention the 5th gear/mainshaft seal (the one between the input & output shafts) but I would change that too.  I have always gotten it out with a small flat screwdriver (space is tight).  I now have that Lisle small seal puller I will try next time but the screwdriver works fine prying from the inside out gradually in a circle from the inside diameter.  Usually takes me about 30 or so iterations to get it but it always comes out, and I use the tube part of the race installer tool along with an old race (or piece of PVC pipe) and the clutch hub nut to install a new seal.  Never had an issue doing this.  Good luck!

Yup, going to do the 5th gear main shaft seal also. I have the Lisle seal puller also and it works like a charm. Have the Jims install tool for the seal, also works well.

[Geezer_Glider]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

[FXDBI]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

[les]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

And nothing to do with improper assembly.

Just to note on a real-life case where I worked on a bike where the pulley sort of malformed the spline teeth a little because the stack came loose.  The guy didn't have much money, so what I did was to get a new pulley only.  After cleaning everything up really good, I applied red Loctite (lots of it) to the splines of the new pulley, lots of red to the nut, and put it back together.  It's still holding together after 30K miles.

I thought of this because one job I did years ago (on an Evo) I could not get the pulley off the splines without a puller.  I beat on that pulley to come off, from the other side, but could not budge it.  When I pulled the pulley off with the puller, I found that whoever before me had put red Loctite all over the splines and that's what was making it so hard to remove the pulley.  The bike is an 88", so it don't put out any appreciable power.  Nevertheless, first hand true story.

[FXDBI]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

And nothing to do with improper assembly.

Just to note on a real-life case where I worked on a bike where the pulley sort of malformed the spline teeth a little because the stack came loose.  The guy didn't have much money, so what I did was to get a new pulley only.  After cleaning everything up really good, I applied red Loctite (lots of it) to the splines of the new pulley, lots of red to the nut, and put it back together.  It's still holding together after 30K miles.

I thought of this because one job I did years ago (on an Evo) I could not get the pulley off the splines without a puller.  I beat on that pulley to come off, from the other side, but could not budge it.  When I pulled the pulley off with the puller, I found that whoever before me had put red Loctite all over the splines and that's what was making it so hard to remove the pulley.  The bike is an 88", so it don't put out any appreciable power.  Nevertheless, first hand true story.

Guess who ever worked on that evo before you realized the spline was loose on the pulley and took some corrective measures in his assembly procedure to ensure it wasn't a problem.    Bob

[FSG]

a lot of these problems are because it's still old school design that has carried over from decades ago

IMO the clamping surface area of the spacer isn't great enough and what there is of it is reduced by the taper/bevel so that it doesn't catch or damage the seal as it's inserted

same problem with the rotors and the crankshaft spacer

I'd be making/machining a plate to go inside the pulley with an ID larger so that it could be welded then machined flat

then make a one way only spacer similar to what I've done with the charging rotor

[klammer76]

Did some measurements tonight and then pulled the large seal and the main drive gear oil seal. the reason the spacer didn't want to pull out from the large seal is it has a sharp burr on the end of the spacer (inboard chamfered side). This was catching the seal lip. Can feel it with my finger but can't really see it.

The used spacer measured .599 at four separate locations (12,3,6,9 o'clock)

The new 33344-94 spacer measured .599 at the same four locations.

Trying to find the used, 48,000 mile spacer from my old 5 speed. Will measure that if I can find it.

outer needle bearing measures .315, .314, .314, .315 from end of main drive gear.

Had a little harder time measuring the main shaft run out. Appears to be .0035 turning the shaft.

With indicator on main shaft and pushing up on the shaft I get .005

[Karl H.]

When my pulley lost its clamping force the splines got damaged rapidly. The shaft splines were still fine. The red arrows show the original shape of the splines.

Don't forget to oil the mating surface of the nut before tightening.

[attach=0,msg1318318]

[klammer76]

When my pulley lost its clamping force the splines got damaged rapidly. The shaft splines were still fine. The red arrows show the original shape of the splines.

Don't forget to oil the mating surface of the nut before tightening.

[attach=0,msg1318318]

Thanks Karl. I checked mine and it looks good. I don't think this was loose for long?

Sorry if these pictures aren't clear with the back ground, tried it with a white paper towel behind and came out dark.

[klammer76]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

[FXDBI]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

Well your at the max run out now from what I see on that dial.  Bob

[PoorUB]

Maybe I  am missing something,  but I seem to remember the input shaft being able to move around quite a bit without the support of the inner primary.

Isn't the runout spec with the inner primary in place?

[klammer76]

Did some measurements tonight and then pulled the large seal and the main drive gear oil seal. the reason the spacer didn't want to pull out from the large seal is it has a sharp burr on the end of the spacer (inboard chamfered side). This was catching the seal lip. Can feel it with my finger but can't really see it.

The used spacer measured .599 at four separate locations (12,3,6,9 o'clock)

The new 33344-94 spacer measured .599 at the same four locations.

Trying to find the used, 48,000 mile spacer from my old 5 speed. Will measure that if I can find it.

outer needle bearing measures .315, .314, .314, .315 from end of main drive gear.

Had a little harder time measuring the main shaft run out. Appears to be .0035 turning the shaft.

With indicator on main shaft and pushing up on the shaft I get .005

I found the spacer from my used (48,000 mile) transmission. The pulley nut on this transmission never came loose and was a bear to remove.

The spacer measured 0.600 at the 4 points that I measured.

[klammer76]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

Well your at the max run out now from what I see on that dial.  Bob

Thanks Bob. That is what I was seeing also and wanted to confirm I was doing it correctly. What causes this, MDG bearing needs replacement? Needle bearings? Trap door bearings? The 2002 SM does not detail this at all. Surprised with the low miles.

[klammer76]

Maybe I  am missing something,  but I seem to remember the input shaft being able to move around quite a bit without the support of the inner primary.

Isn't the runout spec with the inner primary in place?

PoorUB,

I went back and read the entire transmission section of my 2002 SM. It does not address checking runout at all, just lists the service limits (0.003). The vertical free movement that I can feel and see on the indicator could possibly be the natural play in the large roller bearing while unsupported by the inner primary as you mentioned? Possibly the needle bearings? I don't think the runout could be checked with the inner on?

If your SM has different info please let me know.

Thanks

[TN]

Fixing to pull my inner primary off and figure out the leak behind the drive pulley. I installed a DD7 this year (less than 10k miles) and upon returning home on a short road trip I noticed a oil spot, upon further inspection it is red, I'm using spectro in trans right now. I'm hoping for a simple fix.

[klammer76]

Fixing to pull my inner primary off and figure out the leak behind the drive pulley. I installed a DD7 this year (less than 10k miles) and upon returning home on a short road trip I noticed a oil spot, upon further inspection it is red, I'm using spectro in trans right now. I'm hoping for a simple fix.

Mine wound up being the quad seal leaking due to the pulley nut becoming loose.

[klammer76]

Continuing on with this project/story:

I replaced all seals (quad, large case seal, MDG sea & shift shaft seal w/double lip). New pulley spacer, new 3 guyz pulley nut (to replace the SE/Jims which is still fine), Red 271 loctite with small smear on pulley face and back of pulley nut. All torqued to 60 ft lbs then 40* (what a treat that is).

My new question, everything works fine BUT if I hold the pulley and pull out straight and push in I can feel & hear some play (end play). This is not play in the pulley on the splines it's the MDG moving laterally. Very minute but some play. Is this normal? (14,000 miles on this trans).

I actually went and felt my original 5 speed transmission and I feel the same play (48,000 miles).

Everything went together fine. The MDG seal was a bit difficult (I have the correct installer tool) and need to be tapped in.

Just looking to see if this is normal or if there is a MDG bearing issue?

Thanks,
Klammer

[les]

The main drive gear gets pressed into the inner race of the big main bearing.  Then the stack gets tightened all the way to the pulley with the big nut.  So, that stack is sound as a pound based on how you described you installed it.

The reason it's got play is because if you had the big tranny bearing on the bench and pushed and pulled on the inner race, you'd feel some play.  If there was not at least a little play, then the balls against the races would be too tight.  With the pulley on, it's easier to push and pull and feel this play.

[klammer76]

The main drive gear gets pressed into the inner race of the big main bearing.  Then the stack gets tightened all the way to the pulley with the big nut.  So, that stack is sound as a pound based on how you described you installed it.

The reason it's got play is because if you had the big tranny bearing on the bench and pushed and pulled on the inner race, you'd feel some play.  If there was not at least a little play, then the balls against the races would be too tight.  With the pulley on, it's easier to push and pull and feel this play.

Thanks les. I appreciate it.